ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

Wow does have two classes (arguably 3 or maybe more) with companions. They're called pets in Wow. I think the new expansion is adding some for warriors and maybe other classes, not sure...

Weapon mods are basically the weapon. You don't need to go hunting or pay comms for a new weapon in swtor as you would flipping from warrior to druid in wow. My point is that switching from p-tech to merc requires 1(out of 12-ish slots) to change. You have to do as much or more gear switching warrior or druid specs in wow than you do switching from p-tech to merc. Heck, you have to change more going from dps pt to tank pt than you do going from merc to dps pt. The gear between the acs is all but the same. You and others bring it up but it's really not an AC distinction, it's a Base Class one.

 

As for my list of "what makes a class a real class", sure you can cherry pick lines from it and say warlocks and mages share some things (like stats) but they don't share most of the things on my list or nearly as much as any particular AC pair in SWTOR does (different races, companions/pets/minions, trainers, 0 shared spells/abilities, diff stories/quests, etc). At no point did I say any one or two similarities makes the classes as interchangeable as acs are here, but the combination of so many of them... Try to look at the big picture: ACs are much closer to specs or sub-classes than they are full classes if you look at how the word "class" is used in other games, regardless of your dev quote stating intents. If you look at this game, switching Acs is a much smaller change than switching full classes is. Using "class" and "advanced class" interchangeably, for this argument, amounts to being deliberately disingenuous. Combined with the trollish responses i've seen here from you today (including the above) I don't know if you really believe or possibly know what you're posting.

 

 

Tell that to the guardian who wants to become a sentinel, or vice versa.

 

Adaptive gear lessens the effect of this, but does not change the fact that one is heavy armor and one is medium armor.

 

One is heavy armor and one is medium armor, but we're supposed to believe that they are the same class simply because actually admitting that they are different classes would pretty much completely shut these threads down.

[Vhaegrant]

Tell that to the guardian who wants to become a sentinel, or vice versa.

 

Adaptive gear lessens the effect of this, but does not change the fact that one is heavy armor and one is medium armor.

 

One is heavy armor and one is medium armor, but we're supposed to believe that they are the same class simply because actually admitting that they are different classes would pretty much completely shut these threads down.

 

Really a moot point.

 

Changing specialisation from a DPS role to Tank role requires a new set of mods. Players are not going to pay the additional cost of stripping out the DPS mods and putting in new Tank mods each and every time they want to switch roles. They go out and get a new set of gear, one for the DPS mods and one for the Tank mods.

 

Switching from Juggernaut/Guardian to Marauder/Sentinel, or vice versa would require no more than the same outlay, even less if you have the foresight to but your mods in adaptive armour types.

[Ratajack]

Really a moot point.

 

Changing specialisation from a DPS role to Tank role requires a new set of mods. Players are not going to pay the additional cost of stripping out the DPS mods and putting in new Tank mods each and every time they want to switch roles. They go out and get a new set of gear, one for the DPS mods and one for the Tank mods.

 

Switching from Juggernaut/Guardian to Marauder/Sentinel, or vice versa would require no more than the same outlay, even less if you have the foresight to but your mods in adaptive armour types.

 

Yes, currently it really is a moot point as you CANNOT change your class. The devs have so far chosen not to allow class changing in any form, limited or otherwise. They have, however, left the mechanic in place allowing a player to experience the other AC (class) in a given story line. It's called "level that AC (class)".

 

If, on the other hand, the devs do decide, at some point, to cater to the "have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd and allow class changes, no matter how limited, then things like different armor types between classes becomes a definite consideration, as do things such as weapons and offhand items.

[branmakmuffin]

Yes, currently it really is a moot point as you CANNOT change your class.

That is irrelevant to the discussion, since no one is asking for class change.

[Vhaegrant]

If, on the other hand, the devs do decide, at some point, to cater to the "have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd and allow class changes, no matter how limited, then things like different armor types between classes becomes a definite consideration, as do things such as weapons and offhand items.

 

No it doesn't, or at least no more than it currently is within the ability to respec. And it still isn't a class change, it's an Advanced class change.

 

The one Advanced Class that different armour types exists for Juggernaut/Guardian (heavy) to Marauder/Sentinel (medium) is no different in scope to the disparity between a Powertech Tank (Mods Endurance/Shield/Absorption/Defence Rating, offhand Shield Generator) and a Powertech DPS (Mods Aim/Accuracy/Power/Crit/Surge, offhand Power Generator). In fact, as stated before, if adaptive armour was equipped the Juggernaut/Guardian would have little to no need to requip their main set just their off hand.

 

The need to consider equipment in this discussion is a non-issue as the demands are already there when considering changing roles by respeccing.

[LordArtemis]

The storyline is strongly tied to gender, faction and class. The story is a very important part of TOR. If Merc and PT had different stories then AC change would be as hard to to as class change would be now. Either it's good for the game or it's not. That's the only consideration. "TOR can't do it because WoW doesn't do it" is no argument any more than "TOR should do it because Hypothetical MMO X does it" is an argument.

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but to me this is telling. Correct me if I am wrong bran....that probably goes without saying

 

IF...a big if mind you...if they had designed the game with stories that were matched to each current AC they would be viewed as classes. Would you still see them as classes if the stories for two classes shared some common elements...in other words if two of the storylines were similar?

 

If that is the case, this falls in line with what I have been saying all along...poor design has made the AC choice lack meaning, and therefore some folks do not see them as classes. That is the fault of the devs, not the players IMO.

 

This could be remedied. That does not mean it needs to be remedied, or more exactly everyone will agree, just my view. They could simply add AC specific story elements into the current storylines.

 

This at the very least IMO should have been how it was if they expected players to accept them as actual classes and not just specializations that serve up unique spec sets.

[Mike_Bluesky]

You dream the impossible if you want story variations, especially for old content.

 

Changing advanced class as a sub perk would be awesome and a great reason for being a sub. Above all it would help community when there's lack of tank or healer when needed. And another reason to grind second (or third if you count pvp) set of gear for one character. How can it be bad from BW perspective?

[Anzel]

I can't wait until I can switch ACs. I have at least two toons I'm going to do this on.

[branmakmuffin]

I don't necessarily disagree, but to me this is telling. Correct me if I am wrong bran....that probably goes without saying

 

IF...a big if mind you...if they had designed the game with stories that were matched to each current AC they would be viewed as classes. Would you still see them as classes if the stories for two classes shared some common elements...in other words if two of the storylines were similar?

How I view them is irrelevant. It's all about how easy it is to do technically. Right now, AC change may or not be easy, but however hard it is, it would certainly be easier than class (or gender or faction) change.

 

If that is the case, this falls in line with what I have been saying all along...poor design has made the AC choice lack meaning, and therefore some folks do not see them as classes. That is the fault of the devs, not the players IMO.

I still have no idea what you mean by ACs having "meaning." If I thought you meant in a RP sense, I would have a reply for you, but I don't think that's what you mean.

[Ratajack]

No it doesn't, or at least no more than it currently is within the ability to respec. And it still isn't a class change, it's an Advanced class change.

 

 

While some may wish it was not a class change, in the eyes of the devs it IS.

 

Until, and unless, the devs actually issue a statement that the AC's are NOT classes, their previous statements hold true. They CAN change their minds and stance at any time, but they have not yet done so.

[branmakmuffin]

\They CAN change their minds and stance at any time, but they have not yet done so.

I think you are finally making some progress.

[Ratajack]

You dream the impossible if you want story variations, especially for old content.

 

Changing advanced class as a sub perk would be awesome and a great reason for being a sub. Above all it would help community when there's lack of tank or healer when needed. And another reason to grind second (or third if you count pvp) set of gear for one character. How can it be bad from BW perspective?

 

Allowing AC (class) changes WILL cost BW subs, even among the so called "casuals". There are many people who are adamantly against allowing class change, in any fashion, and in the eyes of many players and in the eyes of the devs, AC's are separate classes and not just a "spec" of one "base" class or story line.

 

I've pointed out before that right now as things stand they have both sides of this issue paying and playing. If they allow AC (class) changes, they risk alienating those against class changes and losing the recurring revenue from those subs. If, on the other hand, they come out and issue a statement that AC's are classes, or that they are no longer even considering allowing AC (class) changes at this time, they risk alienating those who want to change their AC (class) and losing the recurring revenue from those subs.

 

Allowing AC (class) swaps may bring in a quick one time burst of revenue and maybe even a trickle of revenue if they allow multiple or even unlimited swaps, but will the quick burst and the later trickle be enough to offset the loss of the "guaranteed" recurring revenue of the subs they WILL lose. Issuing a statement that they are no longer considering allowing AC (class) changes will cost them subs as well and there will not even be a quick burst of revenue in that case.

 

So, the question is "Will BW make more money by allowing or selling AC (class changes) than they will potentially lose by allowing them"? Only BW would be able answer this question, and I'm not sure even they can.

 

This is the reason I think the devs are remaining silent. I think they may have made their decision not to allow AC (class) changes and are remaining silent since by remaining silent, they do not risk alienating either side and they continue to rake in those recurring subs.

[Ratajack]

I think you are finally making some progress.

 

I've freely admitted many times that they CAN change their minds at any time. I've also noted that even though they CAN change their minds, this does not mean that they HAVE TO, or WILL, change their minds. Again, to date they have NOT changed their stance or their minds and class changes are still NOT allowed, thankfully.

[branmakmuffin]

Allowing AC (class) changes WILL cost BW subs, even among the so called "casuals". There are many people who are adamantly against allowing class change, in any fashion, and in the eyes of many players and in the eyes of the devs, AC's are separate classes and not just a "spec" of one "base" class or story line.

Oh, please. If it's not a strawman it's hyperbole. Only a few forum control freaks give a rat's butt if others change their AC. People won't even notice.

 

As an aside, I don't even thin the OP even plays any more.

Edited November 22, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

Oh, please. If it's not a strawman it's hyperbole. Only a few forum control freaks give a rat's butt if others change their AC. People won't even notice.

 

If it helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. You might even be right. I may be wrong, but I think if they allow class changes, you will see the population drop markedly further than it already has.

 

That said, I do not think they will allow class changes until, and unless, this game really starts to fail and is in desperate need of something other than the CM to save it. The CM appears to be thriving and the revenue continues to roll in for BW, so I don't see them allowing class changes anytime in the foreseeable future, as I said earlier.

[WestXv]

Why the hell would people even leave if ac change is allowed? Answer only a VERY small percentage would have a problem with it and an even smaller amount would leave if it happened.

[Ratajack]

Why the hell would people even leave if ac change is allowed? Answer only a VERY small percentage would have a problem with it and an even smaller amount would leave if it happened.

 

Keep telling yourself that. Then ask yourself, if so few people would leave if they allowed class changes, however limited, why have they not implemented them? Why the total and complete silence from the devs on this hot topic, despite countless threads including this one of almost 400 pages?

[WestXv]

They haven't done it yet as it takes time and they'd rather spend that time on other stuff atm not that they're worried it will make people mad. If they were worried about making people mad they wouldn't be releasing the Rudolph tauntaun mount or have released that Halloween thing and they wouldn't have priced a tauntaun at 3000 CCs.

[Ratajack]

They haven't done it yet as it takes time and they'd rather spend that time on other stuff atm not that they're worried it will make people mad. If they were worried about making people mad they wouldn't be releasing the Rudolph tauntaun mount or have released that Halloween thing and they wouldn't have priced a tauntaun at 3000 CCs.

 

Does the Rudolph the red nosed taun taun break any unwritten rules of MMO's? Does a 3000 CC taun taun break any unwritten rules of MMO's? Does a Jack 'o lantern meditation chamber break any unwritten rules of MMO's? I don't think any of those break any unwritten rules of MMO's.

 

 

Would allowing class changes, in any form, break an unwritten rule of MMO's? The answer to that one is "YES!".

 

People want to claim that selling class changes on the CM would increase the revenue from the CM. If that is the case, why have they not implemented class changes? Do they not want the money?

 

You say "it takes time". That ambiguous quote is almost a year old, if not older. In that year, they managed to get species and appearance changes implemented. But wait, those are COSMETIC changes only. They do not affect any fundamental game mechanics. Allowing class changes would affect fundamental game mechanics.

 

Since that quote of almost a year ago, the devs have not said one word, uttered a single syllable or even given us a hint of a whisper that they are working on class changes, or that they are even still considering allowing class changes. They have also not indicated that they are no longer considering allowing class changes. Since "eventually" could be this week, next month or three years from now, they lose nothing by remaining silent and letting both sides think what they will. The pro class change side can think that class changes will happen, if they choose to do so, and the anti class change side can think that the devs gave a 'soft no" with that quote, if they so choose.

 

Until "eventually", we all get to enjoy the game as it is.

[MSpectre]

Sure would make rolling the most OP class at that specific time much easier.

[Ratajack]

Sure would make rolling the most OP class at that specific time much easier.

 

That is one of the reasons class changes are an unwritten NO-NO in MMO's.

[Vhaegrant]

Does the Rudolph the red nosed taun taun break any unwritten rules of MMO's? Does a 3000 CC taun taun break any unwritten rules of MMO's? Does a Jack 'o lantern meditation chamber break any unwritten rules of MMO's? I don't think any of those break any unwritten rules of MMO's.

No not if you're playing WoW or some other MMO heavily influenced by pop-culture references but it does break an unwritten rule of SWTOR original design intentions. The last line of the quote specifically mentions the desire to keep 4th wall breaking pop-culture references out of the game.

 

From the old forums and sourced from Darthater :-

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/18664-devtracker-highlights-for-the-week-of-january-13

 

Quote from Daniel Erickson

 

Hey Folks,

 

Our target when it comes to humor levels has always been squarely aimed at the films, especially Episodes IV and V. Star Wars is not a comedy but it is often funny and that humor comes through character. KOTOR and Dragon Age are both good examples of that approach. And like both of those games you can greatly change the humor level or general adventure tone by which companions you take. Running around with C-3PO or Lando is going to always be funnier than adventuring with Obi-Wan or Leia.

 

As Destrucshot points out, humor levels are different across class stories as well. The Smuggler is the closest to being action-comedy, the Agent is closer to Mass Effect's more serious tone with only the occasional lighter moment, and the others cover the spectrum between. Hopefully the variety of class stories and companions will give people a chance to find not just the gameplay build but the world tone and humor level that works for them.

 

Malren, no worries. Fourth wall breakers, out of context jokes and pop culture references are strictly policed. Star Wars needs to feel as timeless as possible.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Daniel

 

Would allowing class changes, in any form, break an unwritten rule of MMO's? The answer to that one is "YES!".

No it wouldn't because it's an Advanced Class change that's being asked for not a Class change. As other MMOs don't tend to have this additional stage of specialisation it is best to stick to the definition of Class that SWTOR actually uses.

I wouldn't advocate the ability to swap between Bounty Hunter and Imperial Agent, both Classes, but I do advocate the ability to swap between Powertech and Mercenary, both Advanced Classes.

 

People want to claim that selling class changes on the CM would increase the revenue from the CM. If that is the case, why have they not implemented class changes? Do they not want the money?

Because all things in the programming world take time and are placed in a priority based queue. SWTOR released a new species the Cathar and it was obviously a high priority to have a species swapping feature available at such a release. I seriously hope the long asked for Guild, Legacy and extra content features are placed higher in priority than an AC swap function. It doesn't mean I don't want to see it just that I'm happy to wait.

 

You say "it takes time". That ambiguous quote is almost a year old, if not older. In that year, they managed to get species and appearance changes implemented. But wait, those are COSMETIC changes only. They do not affect any fundamental game mechanics. Allowing class changes would affect fundamental game mechanics.

Allowing Advanced Class changes would have zero effect on the fundamental game mechanics. You are not giving a character extra power in the form of being able to use abilities from both ACs at the same time. You are instead increasing the utility of the Class in allowing the player to choose which AC they play.

 

Since that quote of almost a year ago, the devs have not said one word, uttered a single syllable or even given us a hint of a whisper that they are working on class changes, or that they are even still considering allowing class changes. They have also not indicated that they are no longer considering allowing class changes. Since "eventually" could be this week, next month or three years from now, they lose nothing by remaining silent and letting both sides think what they will. The pro class change side can think that class changes will happen, if they choose to do so, and the anti class change side can think that the devs gave a 'soft no" with that quote, if they so choose.

And yet their last word was that it would 'Likely happen eventually'. I've been happy with that statement, I don't think it's in anyway ambiguous. As always the programming complexity and perceived priority drives the delivery.

 

Until "eventually", we all get to enjoy the game as it is.

Yup

Edited November 22, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

Keep telling yourself that. Then ask yourself, if so few people would leave if they allowed class changes, however limited, why have they not implemented them? Why the total and complete silence from the devs on this hot topic, despite countless threads including this one of almost 400 pages?

 

From anecdotal evidence of my friends that left SWTOR the transition to the Hybrid subscription and cartel market were the straws that broke the proverbial camels back. I'd argue that they saved the game with quality of life features and new content still being released.

 

If a gamer survived that transition and is enjoying the game I can't believe they would quit over something as trivial as an AC swap function.

 

And it's not really a hot topic as much as a merry-go-round debate between 8 forumites

[illgot]

From anecdotal evidence of my friends that left SWTOR the transition to the Hybrid subscription and cartel market were the straws that broke the proverbial camels back. I'd argue that they saved the game with quality of life features and new content still being released.

 

If a gamer survived that transition and is enjoying the game I can't believe they would quit over something as trivial as an AC swap function.

 

And it's not really a hot topic as much as a merry-go-round debate between 8 forumites

 

Anyone that says they would quit over AC changes is like a kid saying they will run away if they do not get that second pudding.

[Ratajack]

From anecdotal evidence of my friends that left SWTOR the transition to the Hybrid subscription and cartel market were the straws that broke the proverbial camels back. I'd argue that they saved the game with quality of life features and new content still being released.

 

If a gamer survived that transition and is enjoying the game I can't believe they would quit over something as trivial as an AC swap function.

 

And it's not really a hot topic as much as a merry-go-round debate between 8 forumites

 

Class changes are NOT trivial. Despite some posters continued assertions that it is not a class change, it IS a class change in the eyes of many players and in the eyes of the DEVS. The devs are the ones who determine classes, NOT you and not me. I've not seen any statement from the devs reversing their statements that the AC's a fundamentally DIFFERENT class mechanics, that they see the AC's as DIFFERENT classes and that each AC was treated as a full class within each story line. Until, and unless, you can provide a statement from the devs reversing this stance, the AC's are DIFFERENT classes, whether or not you want to admit it.

 

Even the often thrown around quote in which the devs say that AC swaps will "likely happen EVENTUALLY" does not contradict or reverse their earlier stance that the AC's are DIFFERENT classes.

 

One more question for those who wish to insist that the devs said they WILL implement AC (class) changes. Exactly when is "eventually"?