ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Kilora]

what? LOL... Yeah, like the gear for a sentinal will be any good for a Guardian.... Or the gear for a sorce will work well on an assassin...

 

Really, this is the best you can do?

 

Dude, you would probably have to pay up big time too replace the gear. Do you know the difference between a focus and a shield generator?

 

You would be much better off, sticking to topic... really.

 

So, have you ever played this game?

 

Because, 99% of the gear my Sorc uses could EASILY be transferred to an Assassin. Clearly, not a tank -- but, GASP, a DPS assassin can't just magically tank in his DPS gear, either!

 

Want to try that again?

[Quraswren]

So, have you ever played this game?

 

Because, 99% of the gear my Sorc uses could EASILY be transferred to an Assassin. Clearly, not a tank -- but, GASP, a DPS assassin can't just magically tank in his DPS gear, either!

 

Want to try that again?

 

So you have a problem with AC swapping cause one DPS might also be DPS in another AC?

 

Have you hit your head recently?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Quraswren

[Themanthatisi]

So -- in other words, by pointing out the flawed logic behind your acceptance of an AC change, you're telling me that it isn't related to an AC change?

 

Boy -- you really aren't good at this whole discussion thing, are you.

 

I pointed out THE LOGIC (aka reasoning, if you didn't grasp that) behind why you are ok with an AC change. THAT SAME LOGIC would mean you are ok with all other aspects of P2W. THEY ARE DIRECTLY RELATED.

 

If you cannot understand THAT, you should stop trying to act superior and accept your inability to understand a basic discussion point. The question was valid, and in DIRECT relation to the discussion on AC changes. You are using all attempts possible to deflect my question.

 

So, now I have not only asked you the question 3 times, but I've also explained TWICE how it is DIRECTLY related to your argument on AC changes.

 

IF you are not going to answer it, just say you refuse to answer it. Don't come up with complete BS reasons for it. Valid question, valid argument. YOU are the only one refusing to be an adult. And I am sorry for that -- it could've been an enlightening discussion for both sides.

 

you still make no sence... if someone made a 55 Jugg and wanted a 55 mara and they switch the AC, guess what, they lose the Jugg. They do not get a free 55, fully geared, the mara will be quite useless with a shield and absorption. But since you do not understand that, I will not bother to explain how different gear also affects the classes. Also, so you know, a Jugg uses heavy armor, a mara used medium... The person making the AC change, better be prepared for cost and new gear, mods, etc....

 

Explain to me your logic again please... I fail to see how someone gets a free 55, fully geared. but you are entertaining, I will give you that. lol.

 

to make this simpler for you, if someone makes a AC change, they don't all of a sudden have an extra toon.... lol.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Themanthatisi

[Kilora]

So you have a problem with AC swapping cause one DPS might also be DPS in another AC?

 

Have you hit your head recently?

 

Did I say that is why I had a problem with AC swapping?

I was countering the post I quoted, who is someone who is FOR AC swapping.

 

I've actually never stated a reason for being against it -- as I don't rightly care, seeing as how BW has already stated they will be adding it.

[Kilora]

you still make no sence... if someone made a 55 Jugg and wanted a 55 mara and they switch the AC, guess what, they lose the Jugg. They do not get a free 55, fully geared, the mara will be quite useless with a shield and absorption. But since you do not understand that, I will not bother to explain how different gear also affects the classes. Also, so you know, a Jugg uses heavy armor, a mara used medium... The person making the AC change, better be prepared for cost and new gear, mods, etc....

 

Explain to me you logic again please... I fail to see how someone gets a free 55, fully geared. but you are entertaining, I will give you that. lol.

 

to make this simpler for you, if someone makes a AC change, they don't all of a sudden have an extra toon.... lol.

 

 

To make this simple for you -- where the hell did I say someone gets a free 55?

 

YOU are claiming that AC changes are ok, because they don't affect anyone else.

You agreed with Anzels post, stating that "It isn't anyone elses business what spec I am, etc. etc."

 

Using that SAME LOGIC, you would then be OK with someone purchasing a 55 instead of working for it, because it doesn't "affect anyone else."

 

How on earth can you not understand this? I take it you don't actually read someones post when they disagree with you?

 

As for gear -- so, should we also make it fair to other classes then? Because Sniper and Operative, Sorc and Assasin, Merc and BH, they can all change without altering gear. But apparently Jugg/Mara cannot.

 

Edit: You do realize that Juggs don't have to use Shields, right? And DPS juggs don't use absorption?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Kilora

[MajikMyst]

you still make no sence... if someone made a 55 Jugg and wanted a 55 mara and they swutch the AC, guess what, they lose the Jugg. They do not get a free 55, fully geared,, the mara will be quite useless with a shield and absorption. but since you do not understand that, I will not bother to explain how different gear also affects the classes. Also, so you know, a Jugg uses heavy armor, a mara used medium... The person making the AC change, better be prepared for cost and new gear, mods, etc....

 

Explain to me you logic again please... I fail to see how someone gets a free 55, fully geared. but you are entertaining, I will give you that. lol.

 

to make this simpler for you, if someone makes a AC change, they don't all of a sudden have an extra toon.... lol.

 

You funny.. You say other make no sense and then write the post above..

 

Jugg and Mara are two classes.. So if AC switching is allowed.. They would in fact have two toons for the price of one.. I fail to see how this can be any other way?? A Jugg is one toon, and the Mara is the other.. 1+1=2 in most cases.. You statement that they lose the Jugg is false.. They can always switch back right?? Otherwise what is the point of AC switching in the first place??

 

Yes they get a free toon.. They don't have to level the other AC do they??

 

There is no need for AC switching.. It should not be added ever..

[Quraswren]

Did I say that is why I had a problem with AC swapping?

 

Given how you have been asking questions with no simple answer as yes and no. I have had to use some creative license with just exactly what your problem is.

 

I was countering the post I quoted, who is someone who is FOR AC swapping.

 

I've actually never stated a reason for being against it -- as I don't rightly care, seeing as how BW has already stated they will be adding it.

 

Thats good then. Glad your all for it. Now to get more on board.

[Kilora]

Given how you have been asking questions with no simple answer as yes and no. I have had to use some creative license with just exactly what your problem is.

 

I'm asking questions of this other person, because he is using poor logic to back up an AC change.

 

If you are accepting these reasons as why we SHOULD do it:

 

1.) Doesn't affect anyone else

2.) Isn't anyone elses business

 

Then, you are also going to accept P2W, as buying a lvl 55 character, buying end-game gear, etc. -- that all fits the criteria this person is giving.

 

I honestly see both the pros and the cons of AC swaps. I am against them, as I think there is probably a good reason no other MMO developer has allowed this, and it can easily cause dozens of major issues if not implemented properly. If they do implement them properly, there is absolutely a chance that all of the downsides are absent, and we will all have learned from experience.

[Quraswren]

You funny.. You say other make no sense and then write the post above..

 

Jugg and Mara are two classes.. So if AC switching is allowed.. They would in fact have two toons for the price of one.. I fail to see how this can be any other way?? A Jugg is one toon, and the Mara is the other.. 1+1=2 in most cases.. You statement that they lose the Jugg is false.. They can always switch back right?? Otherwise what is the point of AC switching in the first place??

 

Yes they get a free toon.. They don't have to level the other AC do they??

 

There is no need for AC switching.. It should not be added ever..

 

You've got to keep up.

 

We have always stated there needs to be limitations to the AC swap to prevent what you just said. However, changing a red apple for an green apple doesn't mean you have both, so 1 + 1 = 2 is a terrible analogy.

[Themanthatisi]

To make this simple for you -- where the hell did I say someone gets a free 55?

 

YOU are claiming that AC changes are ok, because they don't affect anyone else.

You agreed with Anzels post, stating that "It isn't anyone elses business what spec I am, etc. etc."

 

Using that SAME LOGIC, you would then be OK with someone purchasing a 55 instead of working for it, because it doesn't "affect anyone else."

 

How on earth can you not understand this? I take it you don't actually read someones post when they disagree with you?

 

As for gear -- so, should we also make it fair to other classes then? Because Sniper and Operative, Sorc and Assasin, Merc and BH, they can all change without altering gear. But apparently Jugg/Mara cannot.

 

Edit: You do realize that Juggs don't have to use Shields, right? And DPS juggs don't use absorption?

 

Yes, and an assassin can also DPS or tank, depending on tree and gear. Again, putting words in my mouth and because you do that, I will continue to refuse to directly answer your question.

 

Changing AC, does not give anyone any "free" 55..... they have to give up one, to get one... in this case, the AC only, as I would not support base class changes.

 

I support, a restrictive AC change, meaning, its not free and can't be abused to the point it works like re-specs do.... nothing more. That is how I will reply, asking me if someone should be able to come into the game, and buy an instant 55, fully geared, has no comparison and would be P2W at that point...

 

You do realize, I am suggesting, a AC change, for people that took the time to level the toon that want to change it... right? NOT bases, AC only....

 

Anyway, I will check this thread later.... Maybe at some point, you will ask me questions that directly pertain to AC changes. Take your time, It may be an hour or more before I can reply.

[Kilora]

Yes, and an assassin can also DPS or tank, depending on tree and gear. Again, putting words in my mouth and because you do that, I will continue to refuse to directly answer your question.

 

Changing AC, does not give anyone any "free" 55..... they have to give up one, to get one... in this case, the AC only, as I would not support base class changes.

 

I support, a restrictive AC change, meaning, its not free and can't be abused to the point it works like re-specs do.... nothing more. That is how I will reply, asking me if someone should be able to come into the game, and buy an instant 55, fully geared, has no comparison and would be P2W at that point...

 

You do realize, I am suggesting, a AC change, for people that took the time to level the toon that want to change it... right? NOT bases, AC only....

 

Anyway, I will check this thread later.... Maybe at some point, you will ask me questions that directly pertain to AC changes. Take your time, It may be an hour or more before I can reply.

 

Oh my god! How are you this thick-headed?!

 

Nothing you have said in this thread has pertained to my post, in any way. I have put NO words in your mouth. YOU have put them in mine.

 

I NEVER stated this was like getting a new or "free" 55. Not once. YOU are drawing that analogy based off of a lack of intelligence, since you haven't comprehended a word I've said.

 

 

Answer this then. Let us start from the very beginning. WHY do you think it is ok for people to purchase an AC change? A full list, if you will, of reasons why you are for it. Since, in your first post I responded to, you simple agreed with someone else who said:

 

 

"As for switching AC... I feel that you should be able to switch ACs just like you switch specs. There's absolutely no difference. And to be quite honest it's nobody's business what spec I have, what AC I have or how often I change them. It's nobody's business when I log in, when I log out, what characters I play, etc.

 

However there will always be that small but vocal contingency of players who live in fear that someone will do something that they have no control over.. and then OMG what will we do? Someone changed something that they didn't control? OMG. How dare you move my cheese! Sad really..."

 

 

 

THAT is the logic I am arguing against. THAT is the logic that also says P2W is perfectly ok. I am not attacking your OPINION on whether or not AC changes are ok. I am attacking your LOGIC and REASONING behind it -- as that reasoning will absolutely lead this game to very dark places. You, however, got immediately combative because of your lack of understanding. Had you responded to my initial question as an adult, I wouldn't've had to explain myself 10 different ways -- but, you've taken the emotional route and painted me as a "bad guy" and are clearly incapable of understanding what I am saying.

[Quraswren]

I'm asking questions of this other person, because he is using poor logic to back up an AC change.

 

If you are accepting these reasons as why we SHOULD do it:

 

1.) Doesn't affect anyone else

2.) Isn't anyone elses business

 

Then, you are also going to accept P2W, as buying a lvl 55 character, buying end-game gear, etc. -- that all fits the criteria this person is giving.

 

 

An AC swap has nothing to do with P2W. It's nothing like buying a level 55 in another MMO giving the massive amount of similarities between any 2 AC. You are not buying anymore gear then you already had and could swap to any other toon through legacy.

 

So P2W is such a stretch, it's laughable.

 

I honestly see both the pros and the cons of AC swaps. I am against them, as I think there is probably a good reason no other MMO developer has allowed this, and it can easily cause dozens of major issues if not implemented properly. If they do implement them properly, there is absolutely a chance that all of the downsides are absent, and we will all have learned from experience.

 

You can bet from a business standpoint we will eventually see AC. It just works too well for SWTOR and how the game is designed with classes and AC's on top of the business model thats now in place.

 

If done correctly (and your right there - it has to be done right) it could rebound this game in amazing ways.

[branmakmuffin]

Nice cherry picking there, i gave multiple arguments how it could influence the gameplay EXPERIENCE of others.

All of which amount to nothing more than "It would affect my game play because I feel it would affect my game play."

 

1 of the main arguments being. If someone leveled 2 characters with 2 different advanced specs. While someone else can buy it. It feels like its pay2win

What it feels like is irrelevant. It's not P2W because changing ACs is not an improvement, just a change.

 

This is the reason why i oppose it.

No, you oppose it just because you don't like the idea of change. There're no rational reasons to be against it other than technical ones. You're free to not like the idea, but just say "I don't like it" and call it a day.

 

The reason i chose to quote that line from your AC choice is because choices should matter in an RPG. its one of the universel rulesets of and RPG .

Making the choice to switch ACs would be just another choice. And lest you forget, it's just a game, the point of which is to have fun. Who are you to dictate to others how they should have fun? If you don't like the idea of switching ACs, should it become available, no one's gonna make you do it.

[Kilora]

An AC swap has nothing to do with P2W. It's nothing like buying a level 55 in another MMO giving the massive amount of similarities between any 2 AC. You are not buying anymore gear then you already had and could swap to any other toon through legacy.

 

So P2W is such a stretch, it's laughable.

 

 

I don't think you are understanding me here.

 

I'm not comparing the two at all. I'm pointing out that the reasoning someone is using to support AC changes can also be used to support actual P2W mechanics.

 

I don't view AC changes as P2W, and I've never said they were. I've also explicitly stated numerous times that I was not aiming to draw an analogy between AC swaps and P2W/Purchasing a 55. I don't believe there is any analogy there, because they are completely separate issues.

 

My question would be best posed as: "If you are OK with an AC swap, where do you draw the line?"

 

If you feel people shouldn't be against things if they don't affect them, where do you draw the lines? Especially when we've already proven that AC changes CAN affect other people.

[Kilora]

All of which amount to nothing more than "It would affect my game play because I feel it would affect my game play."

 

What it feels like is irrelevant. It's not P2W because changing ACs is not an improvement, just a change.

 

No, you oppose it just because you don't like the idea of change. There're no rational reasons to be against it other than technical ones. You're free to not like the idea, but just say "I don't like it" and call it a day.

 

Making the choice to switch ACs would be just another choice. And lest you forget, it's just a game, the point of which is to have fun. Who are you to dictate to others how they should have fun? If you don't like the idea of switching ACs, should it become available, no one's gonna make you do it.

 

To play devils advocate here, Branmak, how do you feel about actual P2W? Purchasing a 55 isn't an improvement -- anyone else can purchase it, or level it up themselves without that payment for insta-55.

 

It wouldn't affect anyone elses gameplay. And, don't forget, it is just a choice. You aren't required to do it.

[branmakmuffin]

I'm not comparing the two at all. I'm pointing out that the reasoning someone is using to support AC changes can also be used to support actual P2W mechanics.

You could dial your slippery slope to 11 and say that the reasoning used to support AC changes could be used to support anything else that is also not "changing ACs," since "changing ACs" is no more "some hypothetical other thing" than it is "P2W."

 

To play devils advocate here, Branmak, how do you feel about actual P2W? Purchasing a 55 isn't an improvement -- anyone else can purchase it, or level it up themselves without that payment for insta-55.

Taking a character from level 1 to 55 is not an improvement of the character?

Edited May 30, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Quraswren]

I don't think you are understanding me here.

 

I'm not comparing the two at all. I'm pointing out that the reasoning someone is using to support AC changes can also be used to support actual P2W mechanics.

 

You could try but I doubt it would happen or be supported. Gamers are hip on what is P2W and what is not - usually.) not counting the over-zealous, hyperbole we sometimes get)

 

You can easily agree to one implementation on something and not another even if the rule set is similar.

 

I don't view AC changes as P2W, and I've never said they were. I've also explicitly stated numerous times that I was not aiming to draw an analogy between AC swaps and P2W/Purchasing a 55. I don't believe there is any analogy there, because they are completely separate issues.

 

My question would be best posed as: "If you are OK with an AC swap, where do you draw the line?"

 

If you feel people shouldn't be against things if they don't affect them, where do you draw the lines? Especially when we've already proven that AC changes CAN affect other people.

 

You draw the line at P2W. Since that line is gray in many areas you let your design team create something and find gamer reaction but there are some things that are black and white.

 

EX. Ship upgrades in the cartel market. Player chosen to be P2W, eventually agreed by the developers and removed. P2W it seems.

 

Cartel Crystals at level 10. As damn near close to P2W as you can get and not cause an uproar and is now pretty much accepted cause it provides little difference. P2W - in enough grey area to not matter.

 

Though we all know buying gear is a NO NO. Buying a new level 55 toon is a NO NO for most MMOs but for SWTOR, its a little different here in the design.

 

BUY a AC swap on a class you already know 50% of skill wise, know all the story and questing content is an area for SWTOR to be more lenient on where other MMO's are not designed to be lenient on when it comes to classes.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Quraswren

[Kilora]

Taking a character from level 1 to 55 is not an improvement of the character?

 

Technically, isn't an AC swap an improvement of a character?

 

55 is not an improvement over anyone else who has a 55. My point was focusing more on -- available to everyone, not required, not better than anything you can get without purchasing it.

 

Why are people against that?

[Kilora]

EX. Ship upgrades in the cartel market. Player chosen to be P2W, eventually agreed by the developers and removed.

 

Though we all know buying gear is a NO NO. Buying a new level 55 toon is a NO NO for most MMOs but for SWTOR, its a little different here in the design.

 

 

This logic I don't understand. I know it is how people react -- but I don't get it.

 

Ship upgrades were a problem for good reason. Why? You could ONLY get those components by spending RL$. There was no in-game way to earn them, and they were REQUIRED to do some of the heroic missions.

 

So, why is buying a new 55 a nono? Everyone else can buy that same 55, but you can also get that same 55 by playing the game. You don't have to pay, and it isn't better than what you can earn in-game. It is, in fact, exactly the same.

[Quraswren]

This logic I don't understand. I know it is how people react -- but I don't get it.

 

Ship upgrades were a problem for good reason. Why? You could ONLY get those components by spending RL$. There was no in-game way to earn them, and they were REQUIRED to do some of the heroic missions.

 

So, why is buying a new 55 a nono? Everyone else can buy that same 55, but you can also get that same 55 by playing the game. You don't have to pay, and it isn't better than what you can earn in-game. It is, in fact, exactly the same.

 

and you will likely never understand it. (None of us really do but we sure try)

 

Why do some like cake and some like pie? It's a personal choice of where individual gamers draw the line.

 

Apparently a great many draw the line at buying a new max level toon but it seems many are Ok with leveling an AC in SWTOR and then having the ability to change it's AC.

 

This MMO is designed a little different in that regard VS most other MMO's

 

An AC swap option would put SWTOR on the Map of gaming at being different if done the right way and thats not counting how great a business move it could be that also has minimal negative effect.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Quraswren

[Themanthatisi]

You funny.. You say other make no sense and then write the post above..

 

Jugg and Mara are two classes.. So if AC switching is allowed.. They would in fact have two toons for the price of one.. I fail to see how this can be any other way?? A Jugg is one toon, and the Mara is the other.. 1+1=2 in most cases.. You statement that they lose the Jugg is false.. They can always switch back right?? Otherwise what is the point of AC switching in the first place??

 

Yes they get a free toon.. They don't have to level the other AC do they??

 

There is no need for AC switching.. It should not be added ever..

 

um, you really should think before you reply.... you don't wind up with 2 toons, after changing the AC on one toon, you still have one toon. Math is not needed here...

Edited May 30, 2013 by Themanthatisi

[Kilora]

and you will likely never understand it. (None of us really do but we sure try)

 

Why do some like cake and some like pie? It's a personal choice of where individual gamers draw the line.

 

See, I wish more people would read this and accept that!

 

So many people try to back up their personal views in order to attack others. If that is how I appeared, I do apologize -- I'm actually trying to understand the reasoning people have, and why they treat each thing differently.

 

I guess, really, no one should bother trying to say why they are ok with it, or why they aren't -- because the reasoning not only doesn't matter, but isn't even realistic. Like trying to reason that cheese pizza is better than pepperoni.

 

 

I've really never been in the P2W debates, so I truly didn't understand it. My first post in this thread was rather explanatory -- showing that I wasn't sure why people had a problem, but was trying to point out what I saw most people voice concern over. In the end, I don't even really care if you can purchase a 55. So long as I am not required to pay anything aside from my subscription and the occasional DLC/Expac (that is worth the $ IMO) -- I don't think I'd care.

 

I play solo and with guildies/friends. So long as I can continue to do so -- and run ops and such, without paying $50 for "operations" gear -- I'm indifferent.

 

Hopefully that doesn't make me a bad person. >.<

[branmakmuffin]

Technically, isn't an AC swap an improvement of a character?

How, unless you're claiming that a Juggernaut is inherently superior to a Marauder, for example.

 

55 is not an improvement over anyone else who has a 55. My point was focusing more on -- available to everyone, not required, not better than anything you can get without purchasing it. Why are people against that?

If you want to go on that totally unrelated tangent, I couldn't care less if total P2W was available for purchase, even if it included high-powered items only available via RMT.

[Kilora]

How, unless you're claiming that a Juggernaut is inherently superior to a Marauder, for example.

 

If you want to go on that totally unrelated tangent, I couldn't care less if total P2W was available for purchase, even if it included high-powered items only available via RMT.

 

I think the other poster nailed down the reality behind my questioning. Its just something people will never really be able to pinpoint.

 

See -- I don't want high-powered items that are only available through RMT. Why? Well -- in all honesty, because I'm cheap. But I also don't think you should have an *actual* advantage over someone else, because you have more money. Time advantage? That I don't care about. I have plenty of time to play the game and earn credits/levels/gear.

 

EDIT: Sorry, realized I didn't respond to the first part.

Technically, isn't one class always going to be superior? While 99% of the time is it subjective, there are actual solid numbers you can guarantee as a "cap" for DPS, making one better than the other. Not that it really matters, though.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Kilora

[branmakmuffin]

See -- I don't want high-powered items that are only available through RMT. Why? Well -- in all honesty, because I'm cheap. But I also don't think you should have an *actual* advantage over someone else, because you have more money. Time advantage? That I don't care about. I have plenty of time to play the game and earn credits/levels/gear.

I used to feel the same way. Now, I couldn't care less what others do with their money in a computer game.

 

Technically, isn't one class always going to be superior? While 99% of the time is it subjective, there are actual solid numbers you can guarantee as a "cap" for DPS, making one better than the other. Not that it really matters, though.

How is one AC always superior, unless you being roles into it? Sure, a Scoundrel is a better healer than a Gunslinger is, but an inherently superior character class overall? That's a matter of opinion. For every basic class, we could find roughly equal numbers of people claiming one AC is superior to the other and vice versa.

Edited May 30, 2013 by branmakmuffin