Ratajack Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 and that means what again? swg= sandbox. a sandbox games has a chance to attract less players due tot eh fact that most modern players are used to theme park. SWG last from 2003 to 2011. swtor is a theme park game that is seriously lacking in QoL things that other games start with well near the first couple of months of launch. swtor is dec 2011 (which is funny because swg closed on the same month) and went f2p less within a year. it is only now that the game (with the original devs and alot of their silly rules are gone btw) is the game starting to flourish . those are the conclusions you need to find ironic By your own admission, this game is flourishing WITHOUT allowing class changes? 'nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 I mentioned that I think it should be the industry norm and I pointed out that the previous Star Wars MMO allowed it. And Rat, the only MMO I'm interested in debating in this forum, is THIS game - my rational for mentioning SWG was to refute your proclamation that it wasn't allowed in any other game. I have also used SWG as a reference. But I did make sure to point out that SWG and TOR cannot be properly compared. SWG would statistically be a major outlier because it was so different than anything else on the market. TOR = themepark SWG = sandbox SWG was different than ANY other game in that it allowed you from day 1 to change your profession anytime you wanted to. But initially, you lost ALL associated levels when you dropped a skillbox/"class". Following the NGE there were no skill boxes so if you dropped your class you dropped it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 By your own admission, this game is flourishing WITHOUT allowing class changes? 'nuff said. So what's your implication, that because the game is flourishing, no changes should ever be made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrobearx Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) By your own admission, this game is flourishing WITHOUT allowing class changes? 'nuff said. lol where did i say that? by my own admission, when the game started to detract form the original devs ideas is when the game is starting to flourish. lol you arent even trying anymore. keep reading one part of my post and try to make your point. you only look more foolish with each post Edited August 3, 2013 by astrobearx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 AC, not class, and yes they do but some people don't want to have to level yet one more toon...or have a beloved main that they simply don't like the AC of and would like to try the other side. Reroll is an option, but does not have to be the only option considering how freaking boring leveling gets after you've done it 8 times to see all the story arcs. Who exactly has a "beloved main" that they hate the AC of? I intended for Operative to be my main, but I don't like the DPS or Healing mechanics for Operative so Merc became my main and I only play my Op when the guild needs a medic and my other 2 are on lockout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 1.actually it IS relevant if the original devs are gone as the new ones may think differently.there are a ton of things we have now that the former devs said "NO" to. new devs = new possibles that the old devs didnt allow 2. you analogy is flaw as one albert einstein theory isnt absolute. in fact, i believe there were many theories einstein came up with that was later refuted due to new science being discovered. his theory is nowhere near absolute as you think. a better analogy would be the presidential administrations. each administration policies on homeland security,foreign matters and etc are either similar or completely different from his predecessors. it totally depend on the new administration if they chose to follow the previous admin policies. Did I imply it was absolute? No, I said it was important. Whether int he long run it is refuted will not change the fact that it is and always will be important because it expanded our understanding of physics. But enough about that, back to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Who exactly has a "beloved main" that they hate the AC of? I intended for Operative to be my main, but I don't like the DPS or Healing mechanics for Operative so Merc became my main and I only play my Op when the guild needs a medic and my other 2 are on lockout. I also do not have a "beloved main" (a ridiculous concept, IMO, since it's just a collections of pixels and database entries), but just because you and I don't does not mean others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 The AC you choose does have no impact on me. Your ability to properly play that AC impacts me. Give me some examples of fluidity in MMOs. What needs of the community justify AC swap? Lol, what demands. Tell your guildies to stop rolling DPS only toons and help the guild by rolling a tank and a healer as well. This issue is self policing. More choice is a good thing, but it is not a valid reason to necessitate a change of this magnitude. 1) How does my ability to play my AC impact you exactly? If you're scared of grouping with me, stick to your own groups. I play with plenty of players who suck at their classes. If you use that rational for everything, should players not be allowed to swap toons because they might suck at the one they switch to??? That's a fools argument. 2) An example of "fluidity" is any change made to classes, which continually happens EVERY update. Remember 2.0? Level cap went from 50-55...that was MAJOR change. 3) Needs such as an ever changing playerbase. Players aren't obligated to KEEP playing. If I can fill a missing role by simply switching AC's, that's a much better solution to me than expecting me to reroll a new toon. "Magnitude" lol. Oh come on...it's a freaking GAME Rat...get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 "Magnitude" lol. Oh come on...it's a freaking GAME Rat...get a grip. "We can't repel hyperbole of that magnitude!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 They can certainly change their minds again and allow class changes, but they are under no obligation to do so. The mechanic for playing that other AC already exists in game. That's a nice straw man you've created, there. A Strawman argument is where someone takes a scenario and compares it to a ridiculous scenario while calling them the same thing fundamentally. Rat made no strawman argument in that statement. The Devs can certainly change their minds. They are certainly under no obligation to do so. Players certainly already have the option to play the other AC by rolling a new toon meant for that AC. No strawman there bub. And I owned you and Tux on the Slippery Slope Fallacy. I can go back and quote all that too if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 "We can't repel hyperbole of that magnitude!" O M G! No kidding. Geezus...they make it sound like this is some big freaking deal. It's not. It's MINOR! It's a NON-ISSUE in terms of how it could possibly impact the game, other than making players happy, which it WOULD DO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 It isn't a minimal effort, but no one likes to grind when they don't have to. Currently we have to, but hopefully in the future we won't. If you want to talk about how other games do it, note how many games take a class, then split that class into to sub-classes and then give each sub class 2 specs and a shared 3rd spec... Two AC's exist only because having 8 mirrored "classes" looks better than having 4 mirrored "classes" and 6 specs. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are only 4 mirrored classes with 6 specs. The AC's are an arbitrary and unnecessary splitting of a class considering how much the two AC's share. I'm certain that the AC's only exist because BW couldn't make 16 separate story arcs. No other reason. I also believe the statements about AC's being considered different classes was nothing more than a smoke screen so that EA could pretend they had more than 4 classes. Whether you want to admit or not, there exist 16 different classes in this game, according to the devs--you know, the people who designed this game and know more about this it than any player ever could. That would be 8 different classes per faction, with each of those classes having a mirror class on the opposite faction. Those 16 classes each have 3 talent trees. No two classes share exactly the same talent tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 And I owned you and Tux on the Slippery Slope Fallacy. I can go back and quote all that too if you like. Huh? Not in the least dude. Just because I didn't reply to your silly reply doesn't mean you "owned" me. I'm sticking to the topic of AC change. If you'd like to debate Class change, I'll be happy to reply in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues. It qualifies. And the "if you allow AC then next we will have Warrior to BH" is indeed a Slippery Slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 O M G! No kidding. Geezus...they make it sound like this is some big freaking deal. It's not. It's MINOR! It's a NON-ISSUE in terms of how it could possibly impact the game, other than making players happy, which it WOULD DO! As I've stated, I'm not gonna lose any sleep if it's never implemented. I might not even use it if it were. But it'd be nice to have the option (preachin' to the choir, I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Whether you want to admit or not, there exist 16 different classes in this game, according to the devs--you know, the people who designed this game and know more about this it than any player ever could. That would be 8 different classes per faction, with each of those classes having a mirror class on the opposite faction. Those 16 classes each have 3 talent trees. No two classes share exactly the same talent tree. No, there are not 16 classes. There are 4 classes arbitrarily split into 8 sub-classes. The POTUS can call the sky green, but I have the intelligence to see the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Huh? Not in the least dude. Just because I didn't reply to your silly reply doesn't mean you "owned" me. I'm sticking to the topic of AC change. If you'd like to debate Class change, I'll be happy to reply in another thread. And if someone feels the need to declare that he "owned" you, that's a sign the exact opposite is true and he's simply trying to bluster his way through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 No, there are not 16 classes. There are 4 classes arbitrarily split into 8 sub-classes. The POTUS can call the sky green, but I have the intelligence to see the truth. I bow to your superior intellect. It is obvious that you know better than the people that actually designed and created this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Whether you want to admit or not, there exist 16 different classes in this game, according to the devs--you know, the people who designed this game and know more about this it than any player ever could. That would be 8 different classes per faction, with each of those classes having a mirror class on the opposite faction. Those 16 classes each have 3 talent trees. No two classes share exactly the same talent tree. Negative. 8. If I were to use your logic, that each AC is individually a "Class" in itself, what would you classify a level 55 Trooper or Knight as? There are 8. No matter how much you want to pretend there is more to AC selection, there isn't. And although the shared trees are slightly tweaked, they are most clearly the same in most everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 I just think it's interesting I find myself on the same side of this argument with people I have previously had heated disagreements with. If Grayseven and I agree on something, it must be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 And if someone feels the need to declare that he "owned" you, that's a sign the exact opposite is true and he's simply trying to bluster his way through. Much like "you have been debunked". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 I just think it's interesting I find myself on the same side of this argument with people I have previously had heated disagreements with. If Grayseven and I agree on something, it must be correct. I was thinking the same thing...kinda...mine went more like this "huh...that branmakmuffin guy is finally on the right side of a debate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) I just think it's interesting I find myself on the same side of this argument with people I have previously had heated disagreements with. If Grayseven and I agree on something, it must be correct. I was just thinking that same thing... And Rattajack it has nothing to do with superior intellect and everything to do with common sense. They can call anything they want whatever they want, but that doesn't make it so. Anyone willing to open their eyes can see that. On a side note I finally got my Pleasure Speeder Repulsorlift which means I can actually go back to leveling my Jugg, so I'll have to take my leave from this debate. As a parting note, we can debate this all we want but the truth is that the Dev's indeed have the final word and it will either be for the change, against the change or to defer the question of the change until "soon"... Edited August 3, 2013 by Grayseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) Much like "you have been debunked". That's TridusSWTOR's thing, not mine. Although I suppose it's possible I might have joined in on that. Edited August 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) I was thinking the same thing...kinda...mine went more like this "huh...that branmakmuffin guy is finally on the right side of a debate" So you, Grayseven and I can all have a group hug. All we need now is Andryah to make the circle complete. Edited August 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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