ETA on Advanced Class change?

[ekwalizer]

This This is the bottom line. People need to mind their own business and not worry so much about what others are doing. I mean seriously...this impacts those of you who are so concerned about it 0%!!!! Let it go.

 

Again, MMOs are fluid enough that there's no reason this shouldn't be the norm in the industry. There's NO rational reason not to allow it. Nobody has presented even ONE valid reason that allowing this would be a negative to the game or the community.

 

That is your opinion. No one on your side of the aisle has presented a single valid argument for us either. That is how opinions work. Bring some facts of your own to the table before you make sweeping opinionated statements.

 

Here is a fact for you. It currently is the NORM in the MMO industry to NOT allow class changes. I am fairly certain that game developers and producers are much more plugged into what should and shouldn't be done than anyone posting here.

[astrobearx]

NO, but that doesn't change the fact that the Creative Director and Lead Developer at the time the game was designed stated emphatically that ACs were separate classes and not meant to be interchangeable.

 

Whether he still works there or not is irrelevant.

 

Special Relativity didn't stop being important just because Albert Einstein passed away.

 

1.actually it IS relevant if the original devs are gone as the new ones may think differently.there are a ton of things we have now that the former devs said "NO" to. new devs = new possibles that the old devs didnt allow

 

2. you analogy is flaw as one albert einstein theory isnt absolute. in fact, i believe there were many theories einstein came up with that was later refuted due to new science being discovered. his theory is nowhere near absolute as you think. a better analogy would be the presidential administrations. each administration policies on homeland security,foreign matters and etc are either similar or completely different from his predecessors. it totally depend on the new administration if they chose to follow the previous admin policies.

Edited August 3, 2013 by astrobearx

[ekwalizer]

Nothing in a game is permanent.

 

If BW/EA ever does allow AC change, this will be the primary argument made for Merc to Jugg,

[branmakmuffin]

LMAO! That is not a Straw-man argument. No real shocker there though. You also improperly tried to use "Slippery Slope Fallacy" last week.

"LMAO" is not a very compelling counter-argument. But if that's all you got, we understand.

 

It seems you should invest some time into looking up "straw man" and "slippery slope."

 

If BW/EA ever does allow AC change, this will be the primary argument made for Merc to Jugg,

If you had ever bothered to look up "slippery slope," you would not have made that comment.

Edited August 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[ekwalizer]

You mean the statement that has been quoted all over this thread about the fact that they were looking at allowing AC switching? The one you keep ignoring because you are on a personal crusade because you think that all decisions are final and permanent just because of ONE old statement about one dev saying that AC's are separate classes.

 

Your arguments are weak and are nothing but repetitions of the same old stuff you've been spewing.

 

No one is ignoring that statement. In fact, Rat has pointed to it repeatedly by reminding everyone that that interview was conducted 9 months ago and not a single peep from the Staff has been made regarding that issue since then.

[astrobearx]

If BW/EA ever does allow AC change, this will be the primary argument made for Merc to Jugg,

 

not really as a merc and a pt share the same story , but a merc ang jugg dont.

 

 

you can make the argument and look like a idiot though, i wont stop you

[ekwalizer]

It isn't class change. It is AC change. No one is asking for Trooper to Counselor. There are more similarities between AC's than there are differences, but you are too narrow minded to see that and cling to the argument that AC's are different classes just because one Dev said it a long time ago.

 

It wasn't "one Dev". It was all the mouthpieces for the project.

 

Daniel Erickson, wasn't simple a "dev". He was the Creative Director for the game, and at the same time the Lead Developer. He was kind of a big deal, not some random henchman turning a dial.

 

Stephan Reid also said that ACs were individual and separate CLASSES.

[Grayseven]

That is your opinion. No one on your side of the aisle has presented a single valid argument for us either. That is how opinions work. Bring some facts of your own to the table before you make sweeping opinionated statements.

 

Here is a fact for you. It currently is the NORM in the MMO industry to NOT allow class changes. I am fairly certain that game developers and producers are much more plugged into what should and shouldn't be done than anyone posting here.

 

Not asking for class change. No one wants to be able to turn a Trooper into a Jedi Knight. We are talking AC change, where there are more similarities between the AC's than differences. Mostly because once people do a story arc once, they don't want to have to be bored to tears a second time around just to see what the other AC is like.

 

And there are no "norms" in the MMO industry. The industry is fluid even if a lot of the industry copy cats the 800 lb gorilla way more than they should...

[astrobearx]

 

Here is a fact for you. It currently is the NORM in the MMO industry to NOT allow class changes. I am fairly certain that game developers and producers are much more plugged into what should and shouldn't be done than anyone posting here.

 

well it isnt the norm you have full cinematic tree conversion in a mmo either. just because everyone and their mothers dont do something, doesnt mean you cant go outside the box....and rift does multi classes and multi spec.

[branmakmuffin]

It wasn't "one Dev". It was all the mouthpieces for the project.

 

Daniel Erickson, wasn't simple a "dev". He was the Creative Director for the game, and at the same time the Lead Developer. He was kind of a big deal, not some random henchman turning a dial.

 

Stephan Reid also said that ACs were individual and separate CLASSES.

Again, you are resorting to the "They can't change it because it's always been this way" argument. They might very well not change it because it's always been that way, but that does not necessarily follow.

[ekwalizer]

Not asking for class change. No one wants to be able to turn a Trooper into a Jedi Knight. We are talking AC change, where there are more similarities between the AC's than differences. Mostly because once people do a story arc once, they don't want to have to be bored to tears a second time around just to see what the other AC is like.

 

And there are no "norms" in the MMO industry. The industry is fluid even if a lot of the industry copy cats the 800 lb gorilla way more than they should...

 

That is what is currently being asked for. Once precedent is established things always go downhill. This entire conversation is a perfect example.

 

Since pre-Launch EVERYONE knew that ACs were permanent. But that doesn't stop anyone from requesting that that aspect of the game be altered. There is a point of critical mass, where if enough players adamantly want this feature then it will become reality.

 

The same holds true down the road when Merc to Jugg becomes the new issue of "choice", "happiness", "you don't pay their sub", "mind your business", and "how does it impact you".

[Grayseven]

No one is ignoring that statement. In fact, Rat has pointed to it repeatedly by reminding everyone that that interview was conducted 9 months ago and not a single peep from the Staff has been made regarding that issue since then.

 

And the fact that a great number of statements about various issues were made once a long time ago and then ignored means that you don't have an argument there. Just because nothing has been said doesn't mean that it still isn't on the board. Like the SSSP.

 

The statement that AC were different classes was made much, much farther back and yet you still cling to that like a rat on a sinking ship...

[ekwalizer]

And the fact that a great number of statements about various issues were made once a long time ago and then ignored means that you don't have an argument there. Just because nothing has been said doesn't mean that it still isn't on the board. Like the SSSP.

 

The statement that AC were different classes was made much, much farther back and yet you still cling to that like a rat on a sinking ship...

 

I have said repeatedly in this very thread that I would be open to AC swap if it is done right.

[TUXs]

That is your opinion. No one on your side of the aisle has presented a single valid argument for us either. That is how opinions work. Bring some facts of your own to the table before you make sweeping opinionated statements.

 

Here is a fact for you. It currently is the NORM in the MMO industry to NOT allow class changes. I am fairly certain that game developers and producers are much more plugged into what should and shouldn't be done than anyone posting here.

 

ADVANCED CLASS - not Class. Stick to the topic.

 

Let me lay out my reasons for WANTING it:

 

- If someone wants to switch, they should be allowed to

- What AC I choose to play has NO impact on you

- MMOs are very fluid with class design - because of this, AC's should not be permanent

- The needs of the community are always in flux - AC change allows the community to meet the current demands

- More CHOICE is a good thing

[Grayseven]

That is what is currently being asked for. Once precedent is established things always go downhill. This entire conversation is a perfect example.

 

Since pre-Launch EVERYONE knew that ACs were permanent. But that doesn't stop anyone from requesting that that aspect of the game be altered. There is a point of critical mass, where if enough players adamantly want this feature then it will become reality.

 

The same holds true down the road when Merc to Jugg becomes the new issue of "choice", "happiness", "you don't pay their sub", "mind your business", and "how does it impact you".

 

You know, if you don't have a better argument than "oh noes, this completely different and not at all identical request might happen" you should probably just give up. There is a huge difference between classes, minor differences between AC's. Your argument amounts to "if I cut down this tree, the sky will fall on me".

[Ratajack]

I mentioned that I think it should be the industry norm and I pointed out that the previous Star Wars MMO allowed it.

 

And Rat, the only MMO I'm interested in debating in this forum, is THIS game - my rational for mentioning SWG was to refute your proclamation that it wasn't allowed in any other game.

 

I said it was not the industry norm, not that it was not allowed in any other game. I find it ironic, though, that the game you chose to use to support your argument for allowing class changes no longer exists.

[astrobearx]

That is what is currently being asked for. Once precedent is established things always go downhill. This entire conversation is a perfect example.

 

Since pre-Launch EVERYONE knew that ACs were permanent. But that doesn't stop anyone from requesting that that aspect of the game be altered. There is a point of critical mass, where if enough players adamantly want this feature then it will become reality.

 

The same holds true down the road when Merc to Jugg becomes the new issue of "choice", "happiness", "you don't pay their sub", "mind your business", and "how does it impact you".

and you know what? if those devs actually listen to the playerbase and what WE WANT. perhaps this game would have been till sub 2 play WITH NO CASH SHOP. this game suffer because the first game devs were so wrap within their "vision" that cause the majority of the playerbase to up and go. you keep using the first devs like they were the best about this game, when in fact, theyre limiting and narrow views on how this game should be like let other players to go to games where things like dual spec, field respec and other QoL things should have been in the game in the first place.

[ekwalizer]

ADVANCED CLASS - not Class. Stick to the topic.

 

Let me lay out my reasons for WANTING it:

 

- If someone wants to switch, they should be allowed to

- What AC I choose to play has NO impact on you

- MMOs are very fluid with class design - because of this, AC's should not be permanent

- The needs of the community are always in flux - AC change allows the community to meet the current demands

- More CHOICE is a good thing

 

The AC you choose does have no impact on me. Your ability to properly play that AC impacts me.

Give me some examples of fluidity in MMOs.

What needs of the community justify AC swap? Lol, what demands. Tell your guildies to stop rolling DPS only toons and help the guild by rolling a tank and a healer as well. This issue is self policing.

More choice is a good thing, but it is not a valid reason to necessitate a change of this magnitude.

[Ratajack]

AC, not class, and yes they do but some people don't want to have to level yet one more toon...or have a beloved main that they simply don't like the AC of and would like to try the other side.

 

Reroll is an option, but does not have to be the only option considering how freaking boring leveling gets after you've done it 8 times to see all the story arcs.

 

So, because someone doesn't want to put forth the time and minimal effort to play that other class, the devs should change an existing game mechanic and allow class changes?

[branmakmuffin]

That is what is currently being asked for.

"What" is what is currently being asked for? Trooper to Jedi Knight? That's patently false.

 

Once precedent is established things always go downhill.

I hate the way everyone always over-generalizes all the time.

 

Since pre-Launch EVERYONE knew that ACs were permanent. But that doesn't stop anyone from requesting that that aspect of the game be altered. There is a point of critical mass, where if enough players adamantly want this feature then it will become reality.

And even if true, it does not necessarily follow that Trooper-to-Jedi Knight will be hot in the heels of AC change. Seriously, look up "slippery slope" so you will stop embarrassing yourself.

 

The same holds true down the road when Merc to Jugg becomes the new issue of "choice", "happiness", "you don't pay their sub", "mind your business", and "how does it impact you".

Those same arguments hold true. The thing to stop basic lass change is the same thing to stop gender and faction change: they are all intricately part of the class story. AC is not.

 

So, because someone doesn't want to put forth the time and minimal effort to play that other class, the devs should change an existing game mechanic and allow class changes?

Now yer gettin' it. If they want to pay CCs to avoid replaying the same class story, that's none of your business.

Edited August 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[TUXs]

I find it ironic, though, that the game you chose to use to support your argument for allowing class changes no longer exists.

Arguably because of this game - I saw a correlation since they are both SW MMOs licensed through Lucas Arts.

[ekwalizer]

And every argument against has been refuted. There are no good reasons to not allow it, while the very best argument to allow it...that being it gives players an option.

 

Refuted? That is your opinion.

I want it - I don't want it.

It's good for the game - It's bad for the game

We should have choice - You already made that choice

It will make money on the CC - It will take money from the CC because it will reduce the need for ALT leveling

 

There, I just refuted all of the pro-change sides "valid" reasons.

[astrobearx]

I said it was not the industry norm, not that it was not allowed in any other game. I find it ironic, though, that the game you chose to use to support your argument for allowing class changes no longer exists.

 

and that means what again?

 

swg= sandbox. a sandbox games has a chance to attract less players due tot eh fact that most modern players are used to theme park. SWG last from 2003 to 2011.

 

swtor is a theme park game that is seriously lacking in QoL things that other games start with well near the first couple of months of launch. swtor is dec 2011 (which is funny because swg closed on the same month) and went f2p less within a year. it is only now that the game (with the original devs and alot of their silly rules are gone btw) is the game starting to flourish .

 

 

those are the conclusions you need to find ironic

 

 

edit, there is no such thing as a industry norm. what you meant to say "this isnt what WoW does, so we cant do it either"

Edited August 3, 2013 by astrobearx

[Ratajack]

Arguably because of this game - I saw a correlation since they are both SW MMOs licensed through Lucas Arts.

 

Do you mean the game that does NOT allow CLASS changes? Let me make sure I understand this. You want the game that does not allow class changes and still exists to allow class changes and you use as a justification another game that no longer exists did allow class changes?

[Grayseven]

So, because someone doesn't want to put forth the time and minimal effort to play that other class, the devs should change an existing game mechanic and allow class changes?

 

It isn't a minimal effort, but no one likes to grind when they don't have to. Currently we have to, but hopefully in the future we won't.

 

If you want to talk about how other games do it, note how many games take a class, then split that class into to sub-classes and then give each sub class 2 specs and a shared 3rd spec...

 

Two AC's exist only because having 8 mirrored "classes" looks better than having 4 mirrored "classes" and 6 specs. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are only 4 mirrored classes with 6 specs. The AC's are an arbitrary and unnecessary splitting of a class considering how much the two AC's share.

 

I'm certain that the AC's only exist because BW couldn't make 16 separate story arcs. No other reason. I also believe the statements about AC's being considered different classes was nothing more than a smoke screen so that EA could pretend they had more than 4 classes.