ETA on Advanced Class change?

[WestXv]

Ehh I'm pretty sure this will happen just like how I was 100% sure the rakghoul event would make a return and as I was right about that I assume that they will eventually make ac change available. Now if its class change we're talking about that could never happen as companions and story would just render that unusable.

[Ratajack]

Do you have an actual quote for that?

 

I believe that the actual quote occurred during BETA and as Majik points out, those forums no longer exist. I'm sure you are just as capable of using google as I am, though.

[Ratajack]

Ehh I'm pretty sure this will happen just like how I was 100% sure the rakghoul event would make a return and as I was right about that I assume that they will eventually make ac change available. Now if its class change we're talking about that could never happen as companions and story would just render that unusable.

 

It may very well happen. I do not think it will happen at any time in the near future, though. IMO, it will not happen until this game is on its literal deathbed and then only as a last ditch effort to keep it alive. With the CM in place and apparently thriving, I see no reason to believe that time is anywhere close.

[Knockerz]

Ehh I'm pretty sure this will happen just like how I was 100% sure the rakghoul event would make a return and as I was right about that I assume that they will eventually make ac change available. Now if its class change we're talking about that could never happen as companions and story would just render that unusable.

 

I don't think this will happen. It's been etched into the minds of mmorpg players that changing classes, which is what changing advance classes are equivalent in swtor, is breaking an unwritten rule in mmorpg design. The only game I know that you can change classes is pso2, but when you switch you have to level it the same way as if you were just stating off with that class fresh. The game saves your level like if you switch from max gunner to hunter and you never played hunter you have to start at very bottom of levels. Next time you switch back to a class to hunter you start off at the level you left the last time you were a hunter. However, leveling in pso2 isn't like swtor. It's very very very long.

 

I doubt it that would work so well here in swtor. They would have to make leveling very very very long and some how reset quest. Basically, the programming doesn't exist for that kinda of system.

 

As for just switching like that I don't think swtor will do that since no mmorpg has allowed you do that. Basically, if wow doesn't allow don't expect here..

[Marb]

I see what you are saying, but I see no real difference between choosing a class at creation and choosing a class at level 10. If I choose the sith inquisitor story and then at level 10 choose assassin, but realize later that I would prefer to play a ranged DPS class over a melee DPS class, I have to reroll. The same goes for "that other game" if I choose to create a rogue, but later realize that I would prefer to play a ranged DPS class, such as hunter. I have to reroll, no matter how attached to that rogue I might be, and no matter what "unique and no longer obtainable items" he may have.

 

The difference is one of terminology. In WoW, you choose your class at character creation, and in swtor you choose your class at level 10. You may not be required to reroll 10 levels in WoW if you don't like your class (because you chose it at character creation). If you choose a ranged class in WoW, you are ranged from the moment you enter the game. In swtor, what you're really selecting at character creation is your storyline, and there is no such equivalent in WoW. This is where the confusion begins.

 

The desire behind having AC respecs has its root in a misunderstanding of what Advanced Classes are (WoW people assume they are similar to specializations). In swtor you are introduced to two interrelated systems at level 10, the first is choosing your Advanced Class, the second is choosing which skill tree to spend your first skill point in. Most people confuse the WoW specializations with Advanced Classes, when the equivalent system is the skill tree.

 

The point of removing the entire concept of base class and advanced class, by renaming advanced classes "class" and letting you choose it at level 1 would be a way of avoiding this confusion. It also has other merits such as the 1-10 experience being a relevant introduction to the classes playstyle, and having trainers only teaching abilities that you actually use as that class (no more unload for powertechs etc).

Edited November 21, 2013 by Marb

[branmakmuffin]

I believe that the actual quote occurred during BETA and as Majik points out, those forums no longer exist. I'm sure you are just as capable of using google as I am, though.

You're the one making a particular claim. The onus is on you to provide support it. Otherwise you're just typing made-up nonsense.

[MajikMyst]

You're the one making a particular claim. The onus is on you to provide support it. Otherwise you're just typing made-up nonsense.

 

Give it a rest Bran.. No one character can be both a tank or a healer.. Case closed.. There is your proof.. Bioware didn't want it so they made sure the game didn't allow it..

 

Just like Bioware doesn't want us to be able to change our AC.. They only put like 4 warnings in the game that tell us our choice is permanent..

 

Again, why does anyone have prove the obvious to you?? It is utterly amazing how many people forget this game is made by Bioware..

Edited November 21, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Savej]

The difference is one of terminology. In WoW, you choose your class at character creation, and in swtor you choose your class at level 10. You may not be required to reroll 10 levels in WoW if you don't like your class (because you chose it at character creation). If you choose a ranged class in WoW, you are ranged from the moment you enter the game. In swtor, what you're really selecting at character creation is your storyline, and there is no such equivalent in WoW. This is where the confusion begins.

 

The desire behind having AC respecs has its root in a misunderstanding of what Advanced Classes are (WoW people assume they are similar to specializations). In swtor you are introduced to two interrelated systems at level 10, the first is choosing your Advanced Class, the second is choosing which skill tree to spend your first skill point in. Most people confuse the WoW specializations with Advanced Classes, when the equivalent system is the skill tree.

 

The point of removing the entire concept of base class and advanced class, by renaming advanced classes "class" and letting you choose it at level 1 would be a way of avoiding this confusion. It also has other merits such as the 1-10 experience being a relevant introduction to the classes playstyle, and having trainers only teaching abilities that you actually use as that class (no more unload for powertechs etc).

 

But why are you in favor of harsh, arbitrary character limitations? I just don't get it. It's BW's job to make player's want to regrind alts (or not - whichever makes the most players happiest for the longest amount of time). Players shouldn't be asking for impositions and backing current ones that are barely defendable.

 

In a comparison to Wow, not only are advanced classes similar to specializations in terms of when/how they are chosen (and they couldn't be unchosen initially in wow either if i remember right), but they perform very similarly in function as well. There are arguably more differences in Wow between an Arms and Fury warrior than there are between a dps Guardian and Sentinel here. And there are more differences between a druid healer and druid melee dps than any advanced class distinction in this game. That game isn't suffering because players have more options. Some people like playing the same class/story over and over - i'm one who has 6 lvl 50+ knights - but most do not and i think the currently punishing policy hurts player long term and short term enjoyment more than it helps.

 

I know there are currently some players that get extremely annoyed with any perceived skill or gear issue in other players and they will do anything to minimize their exposure to such. Based on my experiences in other games and this one respecs have not caused significant, recurring problems. It is, in fact, the impatient and intolerant players that are far more often a bigger problem. I don't favor limiting game enhancements in an attempt to mollify or appease them.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Savej

[Jeweledleah]

But why are you in favor of harsh, arbitrary character limitations? I just don't get it. It's BW's job to make player's want to regrind alts (or not - whichever makes the most players happiest for the longest amount of time). Players shouldn't be asking for impositions and backing current ones that are barely defendable.

 

In a comparison to Wow, not only are advanced classes similar to specializations in terms of when/how they are chosen (and they couldn't be unchosen initially in wow either if i remember right), but they perform very similarly in function as well. There are arguably more differences in Wow between an Arms and Fury warrior than there are between a dps Guardian and Sentinel here. And there are more differences between a druid healer and druid melee dps than any advanced class distinction in this game. That game isn't suffering because players have more options. Some people like playing the same class/story over and over - i'm one who has 6 lvl 50+ knights - but most do not and i think the currently punishing policy hurts player long term and short term enjoyment more than it helps.

 

I know there are currently some players that get extremely annoyed with any perceived skill or gear issue in other players and they will do anything to minimize their exposure to such. Based on my experiences in other games and this one respecs have not caused significant, recurring problems. It is, in fact, the impatient and intolerant players that are far more often a bigger problem. I don't favor limiting game enhancements in an attempt to mollify or appease them.

 

very much this (though I don't have 5+ knights, I have agents and inquisitors )

 

also, just as a reminder.

 

it IS entirely possible to skip picking your advanced class altogether and level all the way to 55 while still remaining your base class.

and it has NO effect on your story, it doesn't block you from recruiting companions and gaining their affection, you can even use group finder.

 

one would think that IF AC was in fact a class - none of the above would have been possible.

sure you lack abilities and talents when you don't pick out your AC, but... you could also pick out AC and put no points into your talent trees and end up with nearly same effect.

[Ratajack]

But why are you in favor of harsh, arbitrary character limitations? I just don't get it. It's BW's job to make player's want to regrind alts (or not - whichever makes the most players happiest for the longest amount of time). Players shouldn't be asking for impositions and backing current ones that are barely defendable.

 

How is your choice of class an "arbitrary" limit? Are you saying that WoW has "harsh, arbitrary character limitations" because you cannot change your class in that game? Should I be able to change from a priest who can heal to a warrior who can tank simply because being forced to remain a priest would be a "harsh, arbitrary character limitation"? I do not call restricting class changes a barely defensible position. I call that good game design.

 

In a comparison to Wow, not only are advanced classes similar to specializations in terms of when/how they are chosen (and they couldn't be unchosen initially in wow either if i remember right), but they perform very similarly in function as well. There are arguably more differences in Wow between an Arms and Fury warrior than there are between a dps Guardian and Sentinel here. And there are more differences between a druid healer and druid melee dps than any advanced class distinction in this game. That game isn't suffering because players have more options. Some people like playing the same class/story over and over - i'm one who has 6 lvl 50+ knights - but most do not and i think the currently punishing policy hurts player long term and short term enjoyment more than it helps.

 

Your spec in wow is MUCH closer to your skill trees in this game than your AC. You can change your spec in WoW and guess what? You can change your spec, or skill tree, in this game also. You cannot change your class in either game, though.

 

I know there are currently some players that get extremely annoyed with any perceived skill or gear issue in other players and they will do anything to minimize their exposure to such. Based on my experiences in other games and this one respecs have not caused significant, recurring problems. It is, in fact, the impatient and intolerant players that are far more often a bigger problem. I don't favor limiting game enhancements in an attempt to mollify or appease them.

 

A respec may not cause a significant, recurring problem. We are not talking about a respec, though. We are talking about a CLASS CHANGE, a far different matter. Respecs do not violate that "unwritten" rule of MMO's that class changes do not happen.

 

To those that want to say that changing a DPS marauder to a DPS juggernaut is simple because they are both DPS, I ask a question. Should a player playing a druid tank in WoW be able to change to a warrior tank, DK tank, or pally tank? If not, why not? They can all tank and as someone arguing for class changes in this game claimed earlier in this thread, they will either learn or go back to what they know.

 

Also, even if someone didn't know how to tank, who the hell cares???? Big deal. They'll either learn (like every other tank did) or they'll switch to DPS or back to whatever they were or they'll quit the game like 2+ million other people have.

[Ratajack]

very much this (though I don't have 5+ knights, I have agents and inquisitors )

 

also, just as a reminder.

 

it IS entirely possible to skip picking your advanced class altogether and level all the way to 55 while still remaining your base class.

and it has NO effect on your story, it doesn't block you from recruiting companions and gaining their affection, you can even use group finder.

 

one would think that IF AC was in fact a class - none of the above would have been possible.

sure you lack abilities and talents when you don't pick out your AC, but... you could also pick out AC and put no points into your talent trees and end up with nearly same effect.

 

You COULD choose not to pick an AC. As you pointed out, though, by doing so, you do not gain any of the skills specific to an AC. Choosing an AC and not allocating skill points will also disadvantage a player, but to nowhere near the extent that not choosing an AC will.

 

I will ask you how many pug groups do you think will choose to carry a level 35 "bounty hunter"? How many pug groups do you think will choose to carry a level 54 "imperial agent"? I would be very surprised if a pug group did not immediately kick a player over level 10 who has not yet picked a class, or AC.

[Jeweledleah]

You COULD choose not to pick an AC. As you pointed out, though, by doing so, you do not gain any of the skills specific to an AC. Choosing an AC and not allocating skill points will also disadvantage a player, but to nowhere near the extent that not choosing an AC will.

 

I will ask you how many pug groups do you think will choose to carry a level 35 "bounty hunter"? How many pug groups do you think will choose to carry a level 54 "imperial agent"? I would be very surprised if a pug group did not immediately kick a player over level 10 who has not yet picked a class, or AC.

 

about as many as would carry a player WITH ac, but wearing completely inappropriate gear/not playing their role the way its intended. some will. others won't

 

disadvantage=/= impossibility

rarity=/=impossibility

 

moreover - I've queued for Esseles/black talon on multiple characters, while still finishing up the first planet's quests, so I quite literally haven't had a chance to pick out a class. I've also done that with pvp. guess what? no kick. not even once. I've seen players as high as mid twenties without AC. no they weren't kicked. they just got explanation of how to pick it.

 

in a class based system - you should not be able to finish an entire game without picking a class.

ergo. AC is NOT a class. its a specialization that at this time is unchangeable.

but

there are

No

mechanical

reasons

why

it should

remain

permanent.

 

none.

[Ratajack]

about as many as would carry a player WITH ac, but wearing completely inappropriate gear/not playing their role the way its intended. some will. others won't

 

disadvantage=/= impossibility

rarity=/=impossibility

 

moreover - I've queued for Esseles/black talon on multiple characters, while still finishing up the first planet's quests, so I quite literally haven't had a chance to pick out a class. I've also done that with pvp. guess what? no kick. not even once. I've seen players as high as mid twenties without AC. no they weren't kicked. they just got explanation of how to pick it.

 

in a class based system - you should not be able to finish an entire game without picking a class.

ergo. AC is NOT a class. its a specialization that at this time is unchangeable.

but

there are

No

mechanical

reasons

why

it should

remain

permanent.

 

none.

 

 

How many skill points can you allocate before you pick an AC? That would be NONE. Why, because you do not even gain access you your skill trees UNTIL you pick a class.

 

In a class based game with skill trees, there should be NO class(es) without skill trees, ergo, your base class is NOT your class.

 

If you still need further proof, above and beyond the dev statements which have NEVER been reversed, simply check your guild roster. How many bounty hunters or troopers do you see over level 10? Now, how many commandos, vanguards, mercenaries or powertechs do you see? If powertech is simply a spec, then why is it listed as "your" CLASS?

[Jeweledleah]

How many skill points can you allocate before you pick an AC? That would be NONE. Why, because you do not even gain access you your skill trees UNTIL you pick a class.

 

In a class based game with skill trees, there should be NO class(es) without skill trees, ergo, your base class is NOT your class.

 

If you still need further proof, above and beyond the dev statements which have NEVER been reversed, simply check your guild roster. How many bounty hunters or troopers do you see over level 10? Now, how many commandos, vanguards, mercenaries or powertechs do you see? If powertech is simply a spec, then why is it listed as "your" CLASS?

 

once.

 

again

 

rarity=/=impossibility.

 

not every class based game requires you to allocate skills. including this one. you are not required, whether you get them or not. you are merely strongly encouraged.

 

as for your assertion of whatever you are listed as IS your class, not necessarily. it merely makes for faster at a glance identification of your specialization... much like that little shield icon, or green triangle, denoting your role. the ONLY difference is that one you can change, while the other - you cannot.

At

this

time.

 

however, i will repeat it again and again.

there's nothing in a game that makes it a mechanical impossibility. unlike, say gender switch, or base class or faction. nothing.

making AC choice temporary instead of permanent will NOT change the balance of the game and classes. it doesn't change the playstyle of each individual specialization.

 

its about as complicated as species change.

 

your personal beliefs and "but, but" reference to outdated statements doesn't change the above.

people used to stubbornly insist that the earth was flat. becasue that's what they have been taught, told by those in authority. didn't make the earth actually flat.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Savej]

Ratajack: you seem to be hung up on the word "CLASS" as if it has some immutable holy significance. It does not. As far as I and my arguments/logic are concerned, wow specs could have been called Advanced Classes or ACs here could be called Primary Specs (not as catchy). It's an arbitrary word that is made up and qualified by every game designer differently. It's not an absolute. It's not objectively defined. How is "acs can't switch because classes can't switch" an argument or even a reason? Ac choice in this game is not EQUIVALENT to class choice in other games, regardless of your ancient quote from that BW dev which isn't relevant (no moreso than my youtube video showing lead devs and producers, multiple, not all fired, saying specifically that ac spec will happen no more than 5 mos before release). You need to explain what exactly is so horrificly fundamentally wrong with ac swapping(call it primary spec swapping, for argument's sake) in this game. And don't say "because you read a paragraph of text saying it's final" - Why should it be? Characters should be locked into choices? Why this one in particular? Throwing out the word "class" which has different implications/meanings in other games, EQUIVALENT choices in other games, which may have been "final" initially, were changed to "not final" and those games did not suffer. Edited November 21, 2013 by Savej

[TUXs]

Are you saying that WoW has "harsh, arbitrary character limitations" because you cannot change your class in that game?

 

You can change your spec in WoW and guess what?

 

A respec may not cause a significant, recurring problem.

 

Should a player playing a druid tank in WoW be able to change to a warrior tank, DK tank, or pally tank? If not, why not?

 

You really love W0W huh? I wish you would have your W0Wgasim on their forums...this is a forum to discuss SWTOR.

[Ratajack]

once.

 

again

 

rarity=/=impossibility.

 

not every class based game requires you to allocate skills. including this one. you are not required, whether you get them or not. you are merely strongly encouraged.

 

as for your assertion of whatever you are listed as IS your class, not necessarily. it merely makes for faster at a glance identification of your specialization... much like that little shield icon, or green triangle, denoting your role. the ONLY difference is that one you can change, while the other - you cannot.

At

this

time.

 

however, i will repeat it again and again.

there's nothing in a game that makes it a mechanical impossibility. unlike, say gender switch, or base class or faction. nothing.

making AC choice temporary instead of permanent will NOT change the balance of the game and classes. it doesn't change the playstyle of each individual specialization.

 

its about as complicated as species change.

 

your personal beliefs and "but, but" reference to outdated statements doesn't change the above.

people used to stubbornly insist that the earth was flat. becasue that's what they have been taught, told by those in authority. didn't make the earth actually flat.

 

As you said, "rarity=/=impossibility"

 

Now let's look at an earlier post of yours:

 

about as many as would carry a player WITH ac, but wearing completely inappropriate gear/not playing their role the way its intended. some will. others won't

 

disadvantage=/= impossibility

rarity=/=impossibility

 

moreover - I've queued for Esseles/black talon on multiple characters, while still finishing up the first planet's quests, so I quite literally haven't had a chance to pick out a class. I've also done that with pvp. guess what? no kick. not even once. I've seen players as high as mid twenties without AC. no they weren't kicked. they just got explanation of how to pick it.

 

in a class based system - you should not be able to finish an entire game without picking a class.

ergo. AC is NOT a class. its a specialization that at this time is unchangeable.

but

there are

No

mechanical

reasons

why

it should

remain

permanent.

 

none.

 

In your own words "rarity=/=impossibility". In this game, you CAN finish the game while only picking a story line and not your class.

[Savej]

No one is asking to be able switch their druid tank to warrior tank or dps or whatever. Bad straw man. Druids aren't warriors , not because of the word "class" but because of the distinctions between them (what the word "class" means in that game) . In wow, different classes have completely different abilities, completely different gear options, different race options, different origin and class quests, different trainers, etc.. Flipping from one to another has many many issues that don't exist for AC swaps here. The equivalent to that here would be asking to switch between (dps knight) and shadow (dps cons) which, again, no one is seriously asking for.

 

Wow analogies are good analogies because, for better or worse, these are mechanically very similar games and it's easy to see what works/doesn't.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Savej

[TUXs]

In this game, you CAN finish the game while only picking a story line and not your class.

LOL! No you can't - Class is picked prior to entering the gaming world. Please, explain to me how you think this could possibly be done? Use this chart to help you.

[branmakmuffin]

The equivalent to that here would be asking to switch between sentinel and shadow which, again, no one is seriously asking for

Which doesn't stop the slippery slopists from arguing that if AC change is allowed, class change will soon follow.

[Ratajack]

Ratajack: you seem to be hung up on the word "CLASS" as if it has some immutable holy significance. It does not. As far as I and my arguments/logic are concerned, wow specs could have been called Advanced Classes or ACs here could be called Primary Specs (not as catchy). It's an arbitrary word that is made up and qualified by every game designer differently. It's not an absolute. It's not objectively defined. How is "acs can't switch because classes can't switch" an argument or even a reason? Ac choice in this game is not EQUIVALENT to class choice in other games, regardless of your ancient quote from that BW dev which isn't relevant (no moreso than my youtube video showing lead devs and producers, multiple, not all fired, saying specifically that ac spec will happen no more than 5 mos before release). You need to explain what exactly is so horrificly fundamentally wrong with ac swapping(call it primary spec swapping, for argument's sake) in this game. And don't say "because you read a paragraph of text saying it's final" - Why should it be? Characters should be locked into choices? Why this one in particular? Throwing out the word "class" which has different implications/meanings in other games, EQUIVALENT choices in other games, which may have been "final" initially, were changed to "not final" and those games did not suffer.

 

The term CLASS is defined by the MAKERS of a particular game, and NOT the players of that game. In this game, the devs have said that the AC's are fundamentally DIFFERENT class designs, that they see the AC's as DIFFERENT classes, and that they treated each of the AC's as a full class. The devs, BTW, have NEVER contradicted that stance, or indicated that they see the AC's as anything other than DIFFERENT classes.

 

There is NO equivalent choice in "other games" if which I am aware. Choosing a spec in WoW is about as far from choosing an AC in this game as could be possible. Once you choose a spec in WoW, you do NOT have to then choose a secondary spec into which to allocate talent points. In this game, you choose an AC (class), and then you have to choose your spec. That's two decisions and not one. Your class in WoW gives you access to your three specs as does your AC in this game.

 

In both WoW and this game, you can change your SPEC, but in neither game can you change your CLASS.

[TUXs]

The term CLASS is defined by the MAKERS of a particular game, and NOT the players of that game.

 

Please see the following link for this games "CLASSES": http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

[Savej]

Which doesn't stop the slippery slopists from arguing that if AC change is allowed, class change will soon follow.

 

many of the arguments for ac swap could almost equally apply to allow for class swapping. As could many of the arguments against AC swapping aplly against allowing any skill respecs at all. I wouldn't seriously worry about full class changes because they would take quite a bit of dev resources. Switching classes could be said to be part of the lore (rogue -> jedi, jedi -> sith, sith -> jedi, etc) but I would never argue for full class swapping. I wouldn't argue against it either, unless someone tried to lump it into my position in this argument.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Savej

[Ratajack]

No one is asking to be able switch their druid tank to warrior tank or dps or whatever. Bad straw man. Druids aren't warriors , not because of the word "class" but because of the distinctions between them (what the word "class" means in that game) . In wow, different classes have completely different abilities, completely different gear options, different race options, different origin and class quests, different trainers, etc.. Flipping from one to another has many many issues that don't exist for AC swaps here. The equivalent to that here would be asking to switch between (dps knight) and shadow (dps cons) which, again, no one is seriously asking for.

 

Wow analogies are good analogies because, for better or worse, these are mechanically very similar games and it's easy to see what works/doesn't.

 

WoW classes have different skills and abilities? Like powertech and mercenary have DIFFERENT skills? Like marauder and juggernaut have DIFFERENT skills? Like sage and shadow have DIFFERENT skills? Like an assassin can stealth, but a sorcerer cannot? Like a scoundrel can stealth and heal but a gunslinger cannot? Need I go on?

 

WoW classes have different gear? LIke pwertechs have a single blaster and mercenaries dual wield? Like assassins use a double balded lightsaber and sorcerers use single balded lightsaber? Like comandos use an assault cannon and vanguards use a blaster rifle? Like sniper use a sniper rifle and operatives use a blaster rifle? Need I go on?

[TUXs]

WoW classes have different skills and abilities?

 

WoW classes have different gear?

This isn't W0W.