ETA on Advanced Class change?

[gabrielluigi]

I'd like the devs to address this. I've heard both yes for AC swapping and no, I want a more up to date clarification. If they tell everyone no to AC swapping, I'd be ok with it, but until that happens i'll continue to try fighting for it.

 

Really? All of that and you only heard/read the first sentence?

 

/sigh

 

I apologize, I'm not usually this mean, it's late- in fact I'm going to bed after this post.

 

Goodnight, and remember kids... "Just Say 'NO' To Class Changes (paid or otherwise) In SWTOR"

[Ratajack]

I said something similar earlier, but im more towards AC swapping where as it seems your not. Everyone wants to try to compare other games to this one and prove it so AC swapping is the same as class swapping when it isnt. The Trooper in a whole, is designed to play each and every role. Just because they want to give you a fancy name when you hit level 10 doesnt make you the trooper anymore, similar to the paladin. The paladin will always be the paladin no matter what spec he/she is, no matter what i do on my trooper im still the trooper. Why can my trooper not branch out to the other side? Other side meaning, if im a vanguard, why cant i just switch to a commando? Its still from the trooper.

 

Are you saying that the devs are wrong when they say that different AC's are different classes? Are you saying that the devs are wrong when they say that changing AC's would amount to changing classes?

[TangledDruid]

I said something similar earlier, but im more towards AC swapping where as it seems your not. Everyone wants to try to compare other games to this one and prove it so AC swapping is the same as class swapping when it isnt. The Trooper in a whole, is designed to play each and every role. Just because they want to give you a fancy name when you hit level 10 doesnt make you the trooper anymore, similar to the paladin. The paladin will always be the paladin no matter what spec he/she is, no matter what i do on my trooper im still the trooper. Why can my trooper not branch out to the other side? Other side meaning, if im a vanguard, why cant i just switch to a commando? Its still from the trooper.

 

Because like it or not, this is a trinity game.

 

Tank

Heal

Dps

 

Vanguard is a Tank Or Dps

Commando is a Healer or Dps

 

SWTOR already, by default, gives us more options than other games.

 

I was a druid in wow because I loved utility classes. I liked being able to tank, dps or heal. Unfortunately, to keep the game balanced, I was never as good as a class that was native to any of those roles.

 

In SWTOR, There is no full hybrid class, WE ARE ALL HYBRIDS. The caveat - we have to pick 2 of the 3;Tank/Dps, Heal/Dps, Or Dps/Dps!

 

This is a BASIC GAME BALANCING mechanic. It will not change.

 

I feel bad some people are confused because the character select screen does not Say "Vangaurd, Sentinel, Shadow, etc"

 

But that does not change the basic mechanics, sorry. I give up attempting to explain it to you, I think you just want to have your cake and eat it too.

 

"If I can be a Vanguard AND a Commando, I can fill all roles and play however I need to" <- this is what you said your last post.

 

That will never happen. The basic premise of the advanced classes is to limit the trinity utilization to 2.

Edited June 11, 2013 by TangledDruid

[PeterTLJr]

Are you saying that the devs are wrong when they say that different AC's are different classes? Are you saying that the devs are wrong when they say that changing AC's would amount to changing classes?

 

I'm not running off a dev post from over a year ago. I'm not saying he is wrong, I'd just like more recent clarification is all.

[PeterTLJr]

Because like it or not, this is a trinity game.

 

Tank

Heal

Dps

 

Vanguard is a Tank Or Dps

Commando is a Healer or Dps

 

SWTOR already, by default, gives us more options than other games.

 

I was a druid in wow because I loved utility classes. I liked being able to tank, dps or heal. Unfortunately, to keep the game balanced, I was never as good as a class that was native to any of those roles.

 

In SWTOR, There is no full hybrid class, WE ARE ALL HYBRIDS. The caveat - we have to pick 2 of the 3;Tank/Dps, Heal/Dps, Or Dps/Dps!

 

This is a BASIC GAME BALANCING mechanic. It will not change.

 

I feel bad some people are confused because the character select screen does not Say "Vangaurd, Sentinel, Shadow, etc"

 

But that does not change the basic mechanics, sorry. I give up attempting to explain it to you, I think you just want to have your cake and eat it too.

 

"If I can be a Vanguard AND a Commando, I can fill all roles and play however I need to" <- this is what you said your last post.

 

That will never happen. The basic premise of the advanced classes is to limit the trinity utilization to 2.

 

I'm not confused at all, I knew what I was in for when I picked my AC, I started out simply saying that they should allow people the option to atleast switch their AC once. Then everyone started trying to explain why it shouldnt be possible by using other games, in which case I responded by explaining my point of view, if its wrong its wrong thats fine. If AC swapping happens, great I like that, if it doesn't oh well ill reroll but i want a dev to make a more recent note on this. My point is, from a game perspective, its not a stretch for a vanguard to switch to a commando, where as if im a vanguard and i wanted to switch to a jedi, thats a completely different story. vanguards and commandos come from the same thing, its not a true class witch, its still the trooper. But not even just the trooper, any base class, as a consular, shadow or sage, you still use force abilities with the option of swinging your lightsaber, how is it a far stretch for a consular to switch his views of the force?

[Ratajack]

I'm not running off a dev post from over a year ago. I'm not saying he is wrong, I'd just like more recent clarification is all.

 

The devs have NEVER changed their stance that AC's are different classes. There is no more recent quote from the devs regarding AC's being different classes. This is one area in which they have remained steadfast. AC's are different classes.

 

The most recent quote of which I am aware simply stated that AC changes would "likely happen" at some point in the future. This is a far cry from saying that they will happen, though. Although there are those that do not share my opinion, my opinion is that this most recent quote was a "soft no" to AC changes. By saying that they would "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future, they can placate those who want to change class while remaining true to their earlier statement that they would not be implementing AC changes.

 

Am I correct in my interpretation? Who knows. I do not, nor does anyone else. Only the devs know, and they're not saying. This lack of any further mention of AC changes lends credence to my interpretation, IMO, as I think if they had any intention of implementing class changes we would have heard at least a smidgen more by now.

[LordArtemis]

The devs have NEVER changed their stance that AC's are different classes. There is no more recent quote from the devs regarding AC's being different classes. This is one area in which they have remained steadfast. AC's are different classes.

 

 

That is not exactly accurate. Not only did they not design or intend for them to be individual classes but simple playstyle choices INSIDE 8 classes in the beginning, they also wavered on AC change and allowed it at one point. The contention that it was a unique class came MUCH LATER as an explanation as to why they took the option away...it evolved into that position to save face. Proof below.

 

 

1) Originally the Advanced class system was not designed as an individual class, but actually was a refinement of a current class to cover play styles...

 

Georg Zoeller - Principal Lead Systems Designer

 

“As you know, a core feature of Star Wars: The Old Republic is that we are shipping the game with eight classes – each with an epic story, full voiceover, quests and cinematics. This creates a very unique game experience for each of them, something never done in an MMO before.

 

Furthermore, we wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class. “

 

Can't find the original developer's blog, but I have the article that refers to it with the quote here.

 

 

2) Originally they intended for AC choice to be permanent, then decided to allow open changes...

 

James Ohlen - Game Director

 

JO: So the question is, um, in Star Wars the Old Republic you have advanced classes that you get to pick at a certain level, um, where you specialize your class...can you, uh, switch once you have made a choice in advanced class, that's the question? So, currently we are going to be allowing you to respec your advanced class... and the reason we went that way is because it is a big choice and some people might make the wrong choice.

 

So, the very first time you decide to respec your advanced class it's not going to be super expensive, uh we are going to make it relatively affordable, and then after that it will become a lot more difficult. We're going to let you correct your mistake...so for example, if your a Sith Warrior, you decide to pick the juggernaut route, and then two levels in you are like "i didn't want to be a juggernaut"...that first correction will be easy, but then after that we"re going to make your advanced class choice very difficult to respec.

 

 

Dallas Dickinson - Director of Production

 

July 2011 - Interview at SDCC 2011

 

What prompted the class design change from choosing a permanent Advanced Class to having the ability to switch?

 

DD: I think we just decided that it is just such a significant choice that you make. We try to give you as much information as possible so you make a good one, but we know that there are some people who choose to play as a Juggernaut, play for three levels, and are like "aww man!" We want to make it so that the first time you choose to respec your Advanced Class, it is relatively painless; it is going to cost some credits, but it is not going to cost a ton. Though after that, we want to make it very difficult. We don't want people to hot swap their Advanced Class willy-nilly; we want to make sure it is something you don't do all the time.

 

 

3) November of 2011 they decided to remove the option to change advanced class and make it a permanent choice.

 

They spoke of this in a german interview...if anyone has the translation please post it, as I no longer have it. But I do have the gist of what was spoken with relation to AC and AC change....

 

From this recent Interview Bioware has changed their mind again about Advance Classes and the ability to respec between them. (eg. Juggernaut to Maurader or Powertech to Mercenary)

 

They have decided that your AC choice will be a permanent one at level 10. They believe that once you choose your AC at level 10 you are to stick with it since if they allow you to switch between AC's it will allow for FOTM gameplay and thats not something they want.

 

Is it possible to change his Advanced class?

 

We have changed her mind again. It will not be possible to modify the Advanced class. We believe it is currently not necessary. Talent trees are to be reset but can not continue to the advanced class. At least not at launch. Probably not.

 

Just to bring some clarity. Never did they indicate in this process that AC was a unique class...rather a refinement of the current class with respect to new abilities for playstyle choice. It also demonstrates that they, at one time, did allow AC change for the reasons demonstrated, and chose to remove that option out of fear of abuse..NOT because the AC was considered a unique class.

 

The unique class viewpoint was one that Bioware evolved into to explain removing the change option. It is as simple as that, and WAS NOT in place at the very beginning.

 

This also proved that, before launch, Bioware had intended to allow AC change and stated the reasons clearly, ones that line up with the most common reasons posed here.

 

It is just not accurate to claim that they have always called advanced class a unique class, designed them that way from the beginning or that they have never allowed AC change.

Edited June 11, 2013 by LordArtemis

[PeterTLJr]

The devs have NEVER changed their stance that AC's are different classes. There is no more recent quote from the devs regarding AC's being different classes. This is one area in which they have remained steadfast. AC's are different classes.

 

The most recent quote of which I am aware simply stated that AC changes would "likely happen" at some point in the future. This is a far cry from saying that they will happen, though. Although there are those that do not share my opinion, my opinion is that this most recent quote was a "soft no" to AC changes. By saying that they would "likely happen" at some undetermined point in the future, they can placate those who want to change class while remaining true to their earlier statement that they would not be implementing AC changes.

 

Am I correct in my interpretation? Who knows. I do not, nor does anyone else. Only the devs know, and they're not saying. This lack of any further mention of AC changes lends credence to my interpretation, IMO, as I think if they had any intention of implementing class changes we would have heard at least a smidgen more by now.

 

At this point, my position on AC changing is id like to see it, but if not ill reroll and that has been my position all along. Ive said numerous times id like to see a dev post something recent on it as there has been rumors about it happening and rumors saying no. The past posts have been simply arguing about is AC classes or not, which they are, but there classes that are branched off a base class, so its not a normal class change, it could happen without the game breaking in any way.

[Jeweledleah]

It is still a class change, so if they are going to allow you to change your class, why not go all the way and allow you to change from a vanguard to a juggernaut?

 

Before you try saying that it is not a class change, I will refer you again to a quote from the devs:

 

 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge, the devs have never wavered on this stance regarding different AC's being different classes.

 

So, unless you feel that you know more than the devs, a vanguard and commando are DIFFERENT classes.

 

the difference is - marauder and jugg share a story. marauder and vanguard? do not.

[ChuangTzu]

Personally I'm for being able to switch ACs (within the main class ofcourse). What I don't get is all the cry babies who keep on going on about having to lvl in order to be able to play the class. What BS! There are many ppl out there that have done this and they still suck. Bad players will always be bad but there are many ppl out there who could easily switch ACs and out perform a large proportion of ppl that play the AC already. The combat system in this game is not complicated, with some general knowledge of the game and some research on the AC then it would be easy to pick up. Edited June 11, 2013 by ChuangTzu

[Ratajack]

That is not accurate.

 

 

1) Originally the Advanced class system was not designed as an individual class, but actually was a refinement of a current class to cover play styles...

 

Georg Zoeller - Principal Lead Systems Designer

 

“As you know, a core feature of Star Wars: The Old Republic is that we are shipping the game with eight classes – each with an epic story, full voiceover, quests and cinematics. This creates a very unique game experience for each of them, something never done in an MMO before.

 

Furthermore, we wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class. “

 

Can't find the original developer's blog, but I have the article that refers to it with the quote here.

 

 

2) Originally they intended for AC choice to be permanent, then decided to allow open changes...

 

James Ohlen - Game Director

 

JO: So the question is, um, in Star Wars the Old Republic you have advanced classes that you get to pick at a certain level, um, where you specialize your class...can you, uh, switch once you have made a choice in advanced class, that's the question? So, currently we are going to be allowing you to respec your advanced class... and the reason we went that way is because it is a big choice and some people might make the wrong choice.

 

So, the very first time you decide to respec your advanced class it's not going to be super expensive, uh we are going to make it relatively affordable, and then after that it will become a lot more difficult. We're going to let you correct your mistake...so for example, if your a Sith Warrior, you decide to pick the juggernaut route, and then two levels in you are like "i didn't want to be a juggernaut"...that first correction will be easy, but then after that we"re going to make your advanced class choice very difficult to respec.

 

 

Dallas Dickinson - Director of Production

 

July 2011 - Interview at SDCC 2011

 

What prompted the class design change from choosing a permanent Advanced Class to having the ability to switch?

 

DD: I think we just decided that it is just such a significant choice that you make. We try to give you as much information as possible so you make a good one, but we know that there are some people who choose to play as a Juggernaut, play for three levels, and are like "aww man!" We want to make it so that the first time you choose to respec your Advanced Class, it is relatively painless; it is going to cost some credits, but it is not going to cost a ton. Though after that, we want to make it very difficult. We don't want people to hot swap their Advanced Class willy-nilly; we want to make sure it is something you don't do all the time.

 

 

3) November of 2011 they decided to remove the option to change advanced class and make it a permanent choice.

 

They spoke of this in a german interview...if anyone has the translation please post it, as I no longer have it. But I do have the gist of what was spoken with relation to AC and AC change....

 

From this recent Interview Bioware has changed their mind again about Advance Classes and the ability to respec between them. (eg. Juggernaut to Maurader or Powertech to Mercenary)

 

They have decided that your AC choice will be a permanent one at level 10. They believe that once you choose your AC at level 10 you are to stick with it since if they allow you to switch between AC's it will allow for FOTM gameplay and thats not something they want.

 

Is it possible to change his Advanced class?

 

We have changed her mind again. It will not be possible to modify the Advanced class. We believe it is currently not necessary. Talent trees are to be reset but can not continue to the advanced class. At least not at launch. Probably not.

 

Just to bring some clarity. Never did they indicate in this process that AC was a unique class...rather a refinement of the current class with respect to new abilities for playstyle choice. It also demonstrates that they, at one time, did allow AC change for the reasons demonstrated, and chose to remove that option out of fear of abuse..NOT because the AC was considered a unique class.

 

The unique class viewpoint was one that Bioware evolved into to explain removing the change option. It is as simple as that, and WAS NOT in place at the very beginning.

 

Wait. So, that would already make this one of those things that BW changed.

 

It may be possible that BW simply chose to spin the decision as to not allowing AC changes at launch as being different classes. That does not negate the fact that they have remained steadfast in that regard since the previously mentioned quote.

 

I also find it very interesting to hear you say that the devs removed AC changes due to fear of abuse, which just happens to be one of the reasons many people are against class changes. Why would the devs be so afraid of abuse if it were not a class change?

[Hizoka]

the difference is - marauder and jugg share a story. marauder and vanguard? do not.

 

and every class in wow LOTRO DDO and basically every other MMO all share the same story... what is your point?

[Ratajack]

the difference is - marauder and jugg share a story. marauder and vanguard? do not.

 

Is changing from vanguard to commando a class change? YES

 

Is changing from vanguard to sentinel a class change? YES

 

They are both class changes. If we're going to allow class changes, then those that want to be able to switch from vanguard to sentinel should be able to do so. It's a little hypocritical to allow one and not the other. If we're going to disallow changing from vanguard to sentinel, then we should also disallow changing from vanguard to commando.

[PeterTLJr]

and every class in wow LOTRO DDO and basically every other MMO all share the same story... what is your point?

 

the point is juggernaut and marauder are from the same base class, juggernaut and vanguard arent. it wouldnt be hard for a marauder to decide to go to a juggernaut. its in the same base class frame

[PeterTLJr]

Is changing from vanguard to commando a class change? YES

 

Is changing from vanguard to sentinel a class change? YES

 

They are both class changes. If we're going to allow class changes, then those that want to be able to switch from vanguard to sentinel should be able to do so. It's a little hypocritical to allow one and not the other. If we're going to disallow changing from vanguard to sentinel, then we should also disallow changing from vanguard to commando.

 

but a vanguard to a commando is not a class change! let me go back to my previous argument, lets use wow analogy, as a paladin you get certain abilities for being a paladin, then you pick retribution, you get abilities for picking retribution. its the same concept! you get abilities for being a trooper, then abilities for picking vanguard.

[Ratajack]

the point is juggernaut and marauder are from the same base class, juggernaut and vanguard arent. it wouldnt be hard for a marauder to decide to go to a juggernaut. its in the same base class frame

 

But still different classes. Do you truly not understand that?

[PeterTLJr]

But still different classes. Do you truly not understand that?

 

I guess I dont, please explain it to me.

[Jeweledleah]

Is changing from vanguard to commando a class change? YES

 

Is changing from vanguard to sentinel a class change? YES

 

They are both class changes. If we're going to allow class changes, then those that want to be able to switch from vanguard to sentinel should be able to do so. It's a little hypocritical to allow one and not the other. If we're going to disallow changing from vanguard to sentinel, then we should also disallow changing from vanguard to commando.

 

is apple a fruit? yes

isd orange a fruit? yes

 

are they the same fruit?

 

NO.

 

there's a big BIG difference between changing stories companions etc and merely changing specialization. it plays like a different class becasue right now its permanent.

 

but the reason its feasible, while changing from sith warrior to trooper is not? is because STORY is the same whether you play jugg or marauder.

[Ratajack]

but a vanguard to a commando is not a class change! let me go back to my previous argument, lets use wow analogy, as a paladin you get certain abilities for being a paladin, then you pick retribution, you get abilities for picking retribution. its the same concept! you get abilities for being a trooper, then abilities for picking vanguard.

 

So, you are again saying that the devs are wrong? Do I need to point out again that the latest statement from the devs regarding AC's as classes clearly states they are different classes? Do we need to point out again that the devs specifically designed the classes so that no one character could fill all three roles?

 

Maybe you should just write a letter to EA and let them know that the devs are all wrong and that the different AC's are really not different classes after all, since you want to be able to switch AC's.

[LordArtemis]

Wait. So, that would already make this one of those things that BW changed.

 

Yes, It would seem that way.

 

It may be possible that BW simply chose to spin the decision as to not allowing AC changes at launch as being different classes. That does not negate the fact that they have remained steadfast in that regard since the previously mentioned quote.

 

Your absolutely correct. To my knowledge they have remained steadfast to that contention since the removal of AC switching, and until I see something different that is how I will feel about that.

 

It just seems it might be possible that they are considering going back to what they allowed in the first place...perhaps relaxing their stance a bit.

 

I also find it very interesting to hear you say that the devs removed AC changes due to fear of abuse, which just happens to be one of the reasons many people are against class changes. Why would the devs be so afraid of abuse if it were not a class change?

 

Yes, I wish I still had that interview so I could post it verbatim. They discussed how they viewed ACs at that point (it was before launch, during testing) and they still had the view that the AC was not a class. That was clear in the interview...the main concern was abuse.

 

I pointed out in one of my prior posts that abuse is a valid concern....one of the reasons I'm not wild about late game AC change.

 

However it is quite clear that they were not designed as separate classes, clearly stated on more than one occasion, and that it is obvious they "adopted" the "view" that they are advanced classes when pressed about removing the ability to change AC.

 

It is more likely, based on this information that they were not, in fact, designed or intended to be individual classes.

Edited June 11, 2013 by LordArtemis

[PeterTLJr]

Yes, It would seem that way.

 

 

 

Your absolutely correct. To my knowledge they have remained steadfast to that contention since the removal of AC switching, and until I see something different that is how I will feel about that.

 

It just seems it might be possible that they are considering going back to what they allowed in the first place...perhaps relaxing their stance a bit.

 

 

 

Yes, I wish I still had that interview so I could post it verbatim. They discussed how they viewed ACs at that point (it was before launch, during testing) and they still had the view that the AC was not a class. That was clear in the interview...the main concern was abuse.

 

I pointed out in one of my prior posts that abuse is a valid concern....one of the reasons I'm not wild about late game AC change.

 

Which is why they need to put restrictions on it. If they do that, the people who want it win, the people who dont want it win, they get money they win, we all win.

[Ratajack]

is apple a fruit? yes

isd orange a fruit? yes

 

are they the same fruit?

 

NO.

 

there's a big BIG difference between changing stories companions etc and merely changing specialization. it plays like a different class becasue right now its permanent.

 

but the reason its feasible, while changing from sith warrior to trooper is not? is because STORY is the same whether you play jugg or marauder.

 

Is a vanguard a class? YES

 

Is a commando a class? YES

 

Are they the same class? NO, they are most definitely not.

 

Changing from a vanguard to a commando is NOT simply changing spec. It is changing class. That is the latest word from the devs and they have not once said anything to the contrary since that quote. If you want to tell the devs that they are wrong just because you want to change your class, then be my guest.

[PeterTLJr]

Is a vanguard a class? YES

 

Is a commando a class? YES

 

Are they the same class? NO, they are most definitely not.

 

Changing from a vanguard to a commando is NOT simply changing spec. It is changing class. That is the latest word from the devs and they have not once said anything to the contrary since that quote. If you want to tell the devs that they are wrong just because you want to change your class, then be my guest.

 

troopers the class, commando and vanguards are specs.

[Ratajack]

Which is why they need to put restrictions on it. If they do that, the people who want it win, the people who dont want it win, they get money they win, we all win.

 

Putting restrictions on it will make no difference. There are already restrictions on AC changing, yet here we are over 80 pages into a thread because some people cannot handle even the existing restriction, which is your AC choice is PERMANENT. You were made aware of this restriction many times before you actually made your AC choice, yet here you are arguing for that restriction to be lifted. What makes you think allowing AC changes with restrictions would change that?

[Ratajack]

troopers the class, commando and vanguards are specs.

 

Then I guess you know more than the devs, because as has been stated and quoted many times, they have stated otherwise. Why is it called advanced CLASS and not advanced spec?

 

Maybe when you write tht letter, you should ask EA to fire all the devs and let you do all the work on this game, since you know better than the devs.