xandax Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 lol - pay to win because you can buy stuff which isn't better than what you gain in the game by playing.... that's a new one. I don't specifically like the CM, but to call it pay to win? ..... yeah, how about no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) again another one noone said its the ONLY way to obtain the gear but that does not change the fact you CAN And again I will state to you I disagree with you about it being P2W. You are entitled to your opinion but that means I am too and I will respectfully disagree with you. Edited May 25, 2013 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadhart Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Ahem, If it was Pay2Win, it would mean that any fool could use real money to buy a superpowered weapon and armor (Let's call them the UBERPWNZ SET for this purpose). You see, a player has zero skill (a noob if you will) so he cannot get gear that allows him to fight endgame bosses, yes? So he buys the UBERPWNZ SET and suddenly he is a one-man raid, facing Styrak and taking him down before he even gets to use Chained Manifestation. But if he uses CC to buy stuff to sell it it for creds, and then uses those creds to buy Armor Modifications 30, he still needs combat skills (also if he sets his gear up badly, it doesn't matter what level the mods he used are), and a skilled guild to face the endgame bosses, so he can earn the true mark of power, and that is the achievement you get for beating them. So if he is useless as a player, he is now stuck with gear that is not top spec, and soon will be outdated when new tier is introduced (it means that 32s are coming with NM modes and 31s will be lower tier now so it does not matter if they become craftable), and he'll never be able to get the best gear and vanity stuff from bosses. And only things that happen is that BW get teh cash for CC and crafters get a motherload of creds, so if anybody is stupid enough to do this he will only help others, but not himself. Unless it's a (rich) pro player who is lazy to gear yet another alt and uses this method instead, only he would probably craft the stuff using his alts or get the mats for his friend/guildmates to craft them for him. TL;DR - to sum it up: Buy UBERPWNZ SET that allows you to face tough bosses alone and kill them easily, or at least makes you very powerful = Pay2Win Buy mediocre raid armor that you need to properly assemble yourself = NOT Pay2Win, Pay2BaseGearYouAltBecauseYouAreLazy at best (worst). Edited May 25, 2013 by Deadhart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpannersSF Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Have to agree with the OP here, anything that gears your character (not just cosmetically) via real money vs playing the game = Pay to win. It makes no difference if there are other options (of course they exist or it wouldn't be a game at all). Someone can get identical gear to me without running a single FP or OP, which personally doesn't bother me but it's pay to win. Edit: It seems the definition of the phrase is causing most of the arguments. I think we can all agree that Pay = spend real money, so It's on to the win. In an MMO there is no final boss, no "congratulations you have beaten SWTOR" screen. The goal in eldergame is to increase the power of your character and to progress through eldergame content (I'm ignoring pvp here for simplicity) . In my opinion anything that, for cash, allows you to skip earning that increased power and ability to do eldergame content through FPs, OPs, Daily quests, crafting, farming, etc. etc. is P2W. I understand this is just my attempt at a definition and not all players goals are the same. Edited May 25, 2013 by SpannersSF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpannersSF Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Yeah, the entire fallacy to the OPs argument rests in the assumption that the only way to credits in this game is CM-2-GTN. There are so many better and more efficient ways to earn credits in this game. CM-2-GTN is one of the worst of choices. But, having followed his posts all morning.. his real issue is he does not want anyone to get the best end game PvE gear in this game unless they grind OPs for it. Which is funny, because that is basically what the 2.0 change in direction by the devs has done. The best gear will always be drop only, OP only... or worst case drop recipe and mats from OP. I didn't see the OP make that assumption in fact it would be ludicrous to assume that. Easier to shoot down an argument that the OP didn't make I suppose. Good job following him all morning though, someone has to keep us safe /whiteknight. It doesn't matter if it's the most efficient method or the only method if it's real money vs playing the game it's pay to win. It doesn't matter if the gear is the very best if it's real money vs playing the game... All imo of course. Edited May 25, 2013 by SpannersSF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand- Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Pay to Win is not pay to play. Pay to win mean that you buy the best gear in the game with RL money to WIN. In SWTOR you cannot buy the top tier gear on the GTN or directly with CC ! So it's PayForLazy PayToplaywithOKgear Paytowhateveryouwanttocallit but not pay to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Only a true dullard believe this. Even if you went through -all- the trouble of doing this, to get Arkanian gear...WITH OUT set bonus...you still have to do HM OPs to get proper End Game gear. Also seeing as how it has no set bonus...you still have to do SM raids for that. Not only that, but why would you? It takes more work to do that, then to just raid for the gear. If you want to go through -all- that trouble to get sub par gear...go right ahead. Edited May 25, 2013 by Hockaday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demotivator Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I wasn't aware that you could buy Underworld/Verpine gear...You can't, that's why OPs argument isn't really valid. It was slightly more valid pre-2.0 where endgame was craftable, but not more more. It's called irony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Well, based on this discussion at least, it seems the majority of those participating in agree on two things... P2W is defined at the best gear that is only available for cash. The evidence does not support the idea that this is a P2W game under most definitions, even if they do not match the most common definition stated above. I believe it will never be a P2W game, and even if it did I wouldn't care, and I would expect most casual players would probably not care either. Edited May 25, 2013 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorelthesecond Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Like I said before this is real pay to win http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/359646-rift-officially-paytowin.html The only pay to win items in SWTOR is the ship parts and crystals. Edited May 25, 2013 by lorelthesecond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediJonesJr Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 beating a dead horse error 401 post not found Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dismayven Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 QQ moar plox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachenko_Yuri Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Like I said before this is real pay to win http://forums.riftgame.com/public-test-shard/359646-rift-officially-paytowin.html The only pay to win items in SWTOR is the ship parts and crystals. Crystals are the same as lv. 50 ones. No pay to win. Ship parts? Who exactly do you win against?The easily outmanuevered script? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumuji Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Or you could buy currency from farmers with real money and buy the gear with it. Since this can be done in any game then every game is Pay to Win! Nobody cares because most people won't fork over that much money for some pixels with stats. There will always be people that pay to get ahead in any game whether the game helps them along or not. The conclusion is don't worry about what other people do. It's not like some clueless person is suddenly going to get a recurring spot in ops and have no idea how to play their class just because they bought their mods the lazy way. Edited May 25, 2013 by sumuji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Pay to Win is not pay to play. Pay to win mean that you buy the best gear in the game with RL money to WIN. In SWTOR you cannot buy the top tier gear on the GTN or directly with CC ! So it's PayForLazy PayToplaywithOKgear Paytowhateveryouwanttocallit but not pay to win. This! Soooooooooooooooooooooo much this! People need to realise that "pay to win" means that you buy the best gear possible (or even better) for real money. Currently you just cannot buy the BiS gear for in-game credits. Nor do i ever think it will be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) im not sure where you guy's experienced enviorments in mmo's where people got BETTER gear from some store put up by the company. This situation sounds more like a privately run pirated server where you "donate" money to the server to attain GOD like powers. Donator's as they are called, can do whatever they want, and are unparrallelled by gear attained anywhere else in the game. This type of thing isnt present in REAL mmos. Fankly, it should never come close. Im appauled at the direction this game is headed, its a slippery slope that cant be taken back. It seems the majority of the customer base is quite fine with that. What can i say then? Paying real life money for ANY advantage is paying to win. Moreover, in 72's, a player is not only outgearing any flashpoint and sm content, they out gear HM content, and also have a HUGE leg up in warzones from the bolster effect. This new assumption that pay to win only occurs when the best is attainable through real life money is a dangerous and new convention that is creeping up in mmo's from somewhere. Honestly i imagine the majority of the posters in the community forums these days are just industry plants tryin to milk the cow a little more.... Edited May 25, 2013 by Spatology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 im not sure where you guy's experienced enviorments in mmo's where people got BETTER gear from some store put up by the company. This situation sounds more like a privately run pirated server where you "donate" money to the server to attain GOD like powers. Donator's as they are called, can do whatever they want, and are unparrallelled by gear attained anywhere else in the game. This type of thing isnt present in REAL mmos. Fankly, it should never come close. Im appauled at the direction this game is headed, its a slippery slope that cant be taken back. It seems the majority of the customer base is quite fine with that. What can i say then? Paying real life money for ANY advantage is paying to win. Moreover, in 72's, a player is not only outgearing any flashpoint and sm content, they out gear HM content, and also have a HUGE leg up in warzones from the bolster effect. This new assumption that pay to win only occurs when the best is attainable through real life money is a dangerous and new convention that is creeping up in mmo's from somewhere. Honestly i imagine the majority of the posters in the community forums these days are just industry plants tryin to milk the cow a little more.... I pay for subscription. I get around 30% more xp and can buy items cheaper from vendors. Thats P2W right there then. Furthermore, i bought the security key. Now i have access to an exclusive in-game vendor. Thats P2W too i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I pay for subscription. I get around 30% more xp and can buy items cheaper from vendors. Thats P2W right there then. Furthermore, i bought the security key. Now i have access to an exclusive in-game vendor. Thats P2W too i guess. Thank you for the strawman, NEXT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Will the over 40's club stop dropping insults. I realize you guys have kept this game afloat by buying hundrededs of dollars each week/month, and my measly subscription is nothing next to your investments. Why shouldnt you be able to just stand around and get your gear in the mailbox, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oJebuso Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 grasping at straws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillHolmes Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 Dear OP Your an idiot, pay to win is when you can buy full sets of the best endgame gear with real life money via the cash shop. By your logic someone who does tons of dailies and spends that money buying 72 gear is clearly paying to win. in conclusion your an idiot, have a nice day. this is quite pathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillHolmes Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 And again I will state to you I disagree with you about it being P2W. You are entitled to your opinion but that means I am too and I will respectfully disagree with you. nothing respectful about ignoring most the facts just leave save ur time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArielaKnight Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 nothing respectful about ignoring most the facts just leave save ur time You sir seem like a child. If someone disagrees you with you then you tell them to leave because they disagree with you. I don't see in any of her posts where she was rude. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are not being respectful. It is time for you to grow up and understand not everyone will agree with and your version of the facts are different than anyone else. Just for the record pay to win means you get an advantage over someone else. The items in the cartel shop gives you no advantage over anyone. Most of the items in the cartel shop are for appearance sakes only. The pets sure don't give you an advantage either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) nothing respectful about ignoring most the facts just leave save ur time Lets see something: Was I rude or hateful in any of my comments: No Did I disagree with you? Yes Newsflash Disagreeing with someone doesn't make them disrespectful, just someone with a different opinion. I have shown you respect for your views and your opinions, even though they are different from mine but when someone disagrees with you then you try to tell them they are not being respectful and that they should leave. This is an open forum where anyone is allowed to voice their opinions whether or not you like it or not. You don't have to agree with it but they are allowed. Edited May 25, 2013 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Its a madhouse in here, and we are takin alot of heat. Yes, we should try to include all opnions in this discussion. No, there arent such things as "diffrent version's of the facts" Facts are facts. CM items are worth in game credits. In game credits can afford you gear. Said gear makes you overgear all content with the exception of 2 instances. Im not throwing my own flavor on this snowcone, its meltin by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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