Hunker Down/Entrench...

[Polymerize]

Everyone knows that what's the OP was arguing. That doesn't mean he was correct in the slightest.

 

In any case, he might have just been trolling, considering he suggested increasing the CD 3 minutes (LOL). That or he mains a smasher.

 

Clearly NoTmrw didn't understand.

 

3 minutes is a long time. 2 minutes? That sounds good to me. Def not w/e it is now.

[Selout]

It looks like some very "brilliant" player has lost again the DPS race with a sniper by trying to CC him.

The entrench is here to stay and it will not go away, you can whine, you can cry, but sniper will have the current CC immunity without any nerfs you are QQing for.

 

Lol, sigh, what part of "I play a GS" is am·big·u·ous (yes it's copy/pasted the phonetic from dictionary.com since you clearly have reading comprehension issues). I suppose you can infer that I lost to a sniper or gs as a gs but why would I be lobbying for change instead of employing those same tactics myself?

 

To clear things up, this isn't in the wake of some rage quit or loss in a 1v1. Quite the opposite. I came back to this game thinking that there would be some sort of learning curve since I have been away for so long but my experience has been the opposite. Also, notice I didn't say "make a change to cover" or "hey lets just get rid of hd/entrench all together" but rather suggested we rethink the cooldown of this largely uncounterable ability. It's not rewarding to use and probably is not fun to go against either. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe since I have been away and then come back I have a different perspective.

 

So let me try again... the current implementation of hunker down/entrench In conjunction with the new mobility we have, feels as if we are over-tuned and bring too many tools to the table compared to what other classes bring. I chose hunker down/entrench over hightail/exfil because the latter are new abilities and less likely to be changed.

 

Just for one minute, try to not have the instant response of "Gah!! I must defend my class in it's current OP state before letting any debate take place" and really think about it objectively. I would hope we all want to have a fun, and have a balanced PvP experience. I am not saying there aren't other issues that need to be addressed but since I don't play other classes, I can only draw from my own experience at 55 as a gunslinger in full gear (partisan/conq).

Edited May 22, 2013 by Selout

[Polymerize]

Lol, sigh, what part of "I play a GS" is am·big·u·ous (yes it's copy/pasted the phonetic from dictionary.com since you clearly have reading comprehension issues). I suppose you can infer that I lost to a sniper or gs as a gs but why would I be lobbying for change instead of employing those same tactics myself?

 

To clear things up, this isn't in the wake of some rage quit or loss in a 1v1. Quite the opposite. I came back to this game thinking that there would be some sort of learning curve since I have been away for so long but my experience has been the opposite. Also, notice I didn't say "make a change to cover" or "hey lets just get rid of hd/entrench all together" but rather suggested we rethink the cooldown of this largely uncounterable ability. It's not rewarding to use and probably is not fun to go against either. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe since I have been away and then come back I have a different perspective.

 

So let me try again... the current implementation of hunker down/entrench In conjunction with the new mobility we have, feels as if we are over-tuned and bring too many tools to the table compared to what other classes bring. I chose hunker down/entrench over hightail/exfil because the latter are new abilities and less likely to be changed.

 

Just for one minute, try to not have the instant response of "Gah!! I must defend my class in it's current OP state before letting any debate take place" and really think about it objectively. I would hope we all want to have a fun, and have a balanced PvP experience. I am not saying there aren't other issues that need to be addressed but since I don't play other classes, I can only draw from my own experience at 55 as a gunslinger in full gear (partisan/conq).

 

So much wisdom.

 

Don't expect a reply from anyone. No one (practically) in these forums can hold an intelligent conversation.

[foxmob]

Clearly NoTmrw didn't understand.

 

3 minutes is a long time. 2 minutes? That sounds good to me. Def not w/e it is now.

 

2m is a good base cd if you're going to let them spec into shorter cds. I would rather just say 1.5m and be done with it.

 

imo, the only spec that should have it up more often isn't even mm to begin with. it should be the area defense. or at least that would make the most sense to me. anyway, nothing against uninterruptable. nothing against un moveable. nothing against unstunnable. all of that rolled into one package for a VERY long time (20s) and on a VERY short cd (45s spec'd). c'mmon. really. that's an awful lot of candy for one button.

[Sharee]

In any case, he might have just been trolling, considering he suggested increasing the CD 3 minutes (LOL).

 

I don't know... My guardian/jugg has the same CD on an ability that merely increases defense by 50/25% for 12 seconds. If BW offered me to replace it with a total CC immunity that lasts 20 seconds, i'd say HELL YES, CD or not.

[Polymerize]

I don't know... My guardian/jugg has the same CD on an ability that merely increases defense by 50/25% for 12 seconds. If BW offered me to replace it with a total CC immunity that lasts 20 seconds, i'd say HELL YES, CD or not.

 

Ikr??

[NoTomorrow]

uncounterable ability.[/u] It's not rewarding to use and probably is not fun to go against either. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe since I have been away and then come back I have a different perspective.

 

LOL, uncounterable get your facts straight.

 

I'll explain to you why snipers need entrench, and why it should be on such a low CD:

 

1. Sniper primary role is area defending, the the whole class concept was based around being able to deny a specific territory (within sniper line of sight) from the enemy. It's what we are supposed and intended to be the best at.

 

2. Most important sniper DPS abilities are activation/channeling based. Those few instant attacks that we have are most often proc based (FT, Takedown, Snipe).

 

3. For (1) and (2) to work a target needs to stay long enough in sniper's line of sight. CC & Defensive CDs allow for that target to stay within sniper's line of sight. Because of (2) you are already in a good shape at beating snipers if you have LoS obstructions between you and the snipers. It's the easiest way to beat them. And now you are asking to be able to do the same while you are within the area where snipers are supposed to be the strongest simply by just CCing them.

 

4. Stunned sniper loses the cover, and with it all the related bonuses. He/she can be pulled, leaped to and so on. A sniper out of cover = free kill.

 

5. Entrench CD matches the most other classes stun CD. On top of that, you have a perfectly clear visual indication of the entrench so that you may save your stun. I don't see why Entrench should be on a longer CD than your typical stun. Please refrain from being an usual troll that automatically gives the entire sniper class all of the MM perks. You don't have MM stuff when you are playing lethality or engineering. And if you are playing MM you are already do joke damage to tanks.

 

6. Unremitting/unstopable basically offers potentially the same total of 20 seconds of CC immunity during a minute. Nobody has a problem with that.

 

7. Diversion denies sniper of cover, and thus limits his DPS capabilites.

 

8. Entrench does not provide immunity to accuracy debuffs. An entrenched sniper that is immune to CC but cannot do damage is not a big threat.

 

You are just one of those dudes playing a non-sniper main, trying to disguise himself as a sniper player. Stop BS forums about challenging skill curve because there is nothing challeing in this game.

 

No sniper nerfs are warranted as long as we have the healing, deception and rage/focus in it's current state. If any of these 3 will be changed, we can talk about sniper changes as well. Until then bear with the sniper being able to win a DPS race if you are facetanking him.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Sharee]

 

4. Stunned sniper loses the cover, and with it all the related bonuses. He/she can be pulled, leaped to and so on. A sniper out of cover = free kill.

 

Good thing other classes cannot be pulled, leaped to and so on when stunned, eh?

[LenrocNewDawn]

Lol, sigh, what part of "I play a GS" is am·big·u·ous (yes it's copy/pasted the phonetic from dictionary.com since you clearly have reading comprehension issues). I suppose you can infer that I lost to a sniper or gs as a gs but why would I be lobbying for change instead of employing those same tactics myself?

 

To clear things up, this isn't in the wake of some rage quit or loss in a 1v1. Quite the opposite. I came back to this game thinking that there would be some sort of learning curve since I have been away for so long but my experience has been the opposite. Also, notice I didn't say "make a change to cover" or "hey lets just get rid of hd/entrench all together" but rather suggested we rethink the cooldown of this largely uncounterable ability. It's not rewarding to use and probably is not fun to go against either. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe since I have been away and then come back I have a different perspective.

 

So let me try again... the current implementation of hunker down/entrench In conjunction with the new mobility we have, feels as if we are over-tuned and bring too many tools to the table compared to what other classes bring. I chose hunker down/entrench over hightail/exfil because the latter are new abilities and less likely to be changed.

 

Just for one minute, try to not have the instant response of "Gah!! I must defend my class in it's current OP state before letting any debate take place" and really think about it objectively. I would hope we all want to have a fun, and have a balanced PvP experience. I am not saying there aren't other issues that need to be addressed but since I don't play other classes, I can only draw from my own experience at 55 as a gunslinger in full gear (partisan/conq).

 

You have no mobility while "Hunker Down" is active. HDown is a self root if you move you lose it . Some of the perks attached to it are high in the SS tree and they are good indeed. Are they over the top? I guess it depends on the POV . Hightail is good until one learns to slow (yes it does look like a waste of GCD but it really isn't). Kinda like grav was before people learned to interrupt .

The ability itself is a class defining one. It defines how a GS plays and how others play against it.

 

P.S. @OP I would very much like to see a picture of your GS. I wonder how your stats are since you feel so OP ?

 

Edit: How can you draw conclusions about balance when you play only one class? Try to PuG a bit maybe getting ROFL stomped will change your perspective.

Edited May 22, 2013 by LenrocNewDawn

[NoTomorrow]

Good thing other classes cannot be pulled, leaped to and so on when stunned, eh?

 

Pulling a melee is a complete utter joke, in fact you are trolling your own team by allowing him to use his leap again.

Pulling a PT that has instant attacks and can kick your own butt in fair and straight fight is not a big deal.

Pulling a stealthers that can just stealth away?

 

Pulling a healer? It looks OK to me.

Pulling a sorc that still does have this nice little thing force speed is ok as well to me.

 

A sniper being pulled into the enemy lines is very easy target because cannot escape effectively. Our roll does not work when rooted. And fighting back with activation/channeling abilities is not easy when you are surrounded by a pack of angry wolves.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Selout]

A sniper being pulled into the enemy lines is very easy target because cannot escape effectively. Our roll does not work when rooted. And fighting back with activation/channeling abilities is not easy when you are surrounded by a pack of angry wolves.

 

Sorry, just no. We have flash grenade, dirty kick, pulse det to get distance, evasion, shield, leg shot once you get a little distance... all waaaaay long enough to get out of those roots then use your exfil/hightail and escape.

 

Your other point-by-point post was intended for someone who doesn't play the class. I do.

[NoTomorrow]

Your other point-by-point post was intended for someone who doesn't play the class. I do.

 

LOL, can you please provide us with a more crappy attempt at countering the arguments in favor of entrench? Mister sniper playing player

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Sharee]

 

6. Unremitting/unstopable basically offers potentially the same total of 20 seconds of CC immunity during a minute. Nobody has a problem with that.

 

Entrench is 23 seconds, during a 45 second period. That's over 51% uptime. Unremitting is 4*4=16 seconds during a 60 second period - 26% uptime, half that of entrench. (It can be 33% uptime only if you burn a 1min CD-push - still significantly inferior)

 

Further, unlike entrench, unremitting is not an on-demand ability. You have to be able to jump to activate it.

And finally, unremitting immunity predictably ends after 4 seconds. It is easy to so something else than CC during those 4 seconds, then CC afterwards. Not so much against entrench - delaying CC for 20 seconds means you won't get to use it at all because you will be dead.

 

I think that sufficiently explains why 'nobody has a problem with that'.

[foxmob]

3. For (1) and (2) to work a target needs to stay long enough in sniper's line of sight. CC & Defensive CDs allow for that target to stay within sniper's line of sight. Because of (2) you are already in a good shape at beating snipers if you have LoS obstructions between you and the snipers. It's the easiest way to beat them. And now you are asking to be able to do the same while you are within the area where snipers are supposed to be the strongest simply by just CCing them..

los is a problem/issue for every single ranged dps in the game. every other ranged dps has things similar to entrench, but they aren't all on ONE BIND, and their cds aren't as short, nor do their effects last as long. another thought: why should entrench be on the same cd as most stuns? that's asinine. that's arguing that you should have a counter every time someone stuns you. could you imagine if I had electro net up for every single encounter? omg. I would wreck face on my healer, and I'd never die. los ranged. net silly melee who try to approach me, and wave from 35m away.

 

anyway, the only real answer to it is an accuracy debuff (oh look, more love for maras). with all dcds avail on the VG/PT, I will kill a mediocre sniper despite entrench (reactive shield acts as a poor man's saber reflect). anyway, I'm not arguing that a vg should 1v1 a sniper. I'm just saying that the sniper's tools -- you call them area defense -- are in fact tools that ALL ranged dps need (at least all turret specs, which also happen to be the burst specs). so what's up with that? why are snipers so special? "area defense"? lolok.

 

if you don't see a 45s (yes, it's one spec) cd on something as powerful as entrench as being just a weee bit short, then I think you need your head examined. still...ppl are putting way too much energy into this issue atm. imo.

 

edit: for starters, I think giving practically every class in the game an activated speed buff was a terrible mistake. I'm cool with the root breakers. that's probably a relief for most ppl. but between scamper and the sniper thing and hold the line and the old sprint and predation and the scrapper thing (similar to htl)....it's just...c'mmon. just make in combat run 15-30% faster and do away with all these perks. it used to make classes unique. need a speed buff? carnage! need a quick cap? sprint. now...oye. the targeting issues alone on those snipers/ops. and htl is on a ridiculously short cd too. thankfully, it's not as powrful as entrench.

Edited May 22, 2013 by foxmob

[NoTomorrow]

Entrench is 23 seconds, during a 45 second period. That's over 51% uptime. Unremitting is 4*4=16 seconds during a 60 second period - 26% uptime, half that of entrench. (It can be 33% uptime only if you burn a 1min CD-push - still significantly inferior)

 

Further, unlike entrench, unremitting is not an on-demand ability. You have to be able to jump to activate it.

And finally, unremitting immunity predictably ends after 4 seconds. It is easy to so something else than CC during those 4 seconds, then CC afterwards. Not so much against entrench - delaying CC for 20 seconds means you won't get to use it at all because you will be dead.

 

I think that sufficiently explains why 'nobody has a problem with that'.

 

Stop taking MM talents as a substitute for the entire Sniper class. Explain what class are you playing against the entrenched sniper and why have you found yourself in a position that you are facetanking him and need to spam CC?

[Selout]

LOL, can you please provide us with a more crappy attempt at countering the arguments in favor of entrench? Mister sniper playing player

 

I understand your reaction. I am breaking the "code" of mmo classes by asking for a nerf to a class I play. So any and all attempts will be made to discredit because what I am doing is viewed as some sort of weird betrayal from within. Say what you like. Plant your seeds of doubt. All it does is show how desperate you are to hold onto what's clearly too good. People like you is what perpetuates the problem dev's have in all games with class balance. You come in here, to shout down any possible chance of real balance based on some sort of insecurity or w/e. I see you have some class guide in your sig but does that mean you are the de facto mouthpiece for every and all gs/snipers? I think not. Some of us care about competition. Some of us care about balance.

 

In any case, I've spent far too much time addressing the concerns of one person. I was more interested in starting a dialogue about what a reasonable solution would be to address this. I guess 3m is too long. Works for me, I mean at least the convo is started. Personally, I don't feel as if we should be able to mitigate every stun/cc that comes our way. That's what teammates are for... to cover for us when we get cc'd. I could live with 2m with talents in sharpshooter/marksman reducing cd. Thoughts?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Selout

[NoTomorrow]

los is a problem/issue for every single ranged dps in the game. every other ranged dps has things similar to entrench, but they aren't all on ONE BIND, and their cds aren't as short, nor do their effects last as long. another thought: why should entrench be on the same cd as most stuns? that's asinine. that's arguing that you should have a counter every time someone stuns you. could you imagine if I had electro net up for every single encounter? omg. I would wreck face on my healer, and I'd never die. los ranged. net silly melee who try to approach me, and wave from 35m away.

 

anyway, the only real answer to it is an accuracy debuff (oh look, more love for maras). with all dcds avail on the VG/PT, I will kill a mediocre sniper despite entrench (reactive shield acts as a poor man's saber reflect). anyway, I'm not arguing that a vg should 1v1 a sniper. I'm just saying that the sniper's tools -- you call them area defense -- are in fact tools that ALL ranged dps need (at least all turret specs, which also happen to be the burst specs). so what's up with that? why are snipers so special? "area defense"? lolok.

 

if you don't see a 45s (yes, it's one spec) cd on something as powerful as entrench as being just a weee bit short, then I think you need your head examined. still...ppl are putting way too much energy into this issue atm. imo.

 

Typical forum reaction when argumentation fails against Sniper class: lets bring out the other ranged DPS classes and ask why are they are not a carbon copy of the sniper class?

 

Different classes are different. Sniper doesn't have friendly pull, instant buble for himself and his team-mates, healing abilities, ability to deny stealthers from vanishing.. the list can go on.

 

So you basically want to have an easy time with snipers while out of their LoS by dotting them and using instant attacks, while they are unable to activate/channel on you, while if for some reason you end up facetanking them, you again want to have an easy time by CCinng them.

 

Play a sniper and see how CC-happy are everyone the moment they see you don't have entrench. The Sniper is the primary CC target when out of entrench. It completely nullifies the entire class by either denying it of its DPS, or knocking out and thus puting it out of position.

 

If you feel that entrench CD is too short, try doing a few duels against a deception sin that has a plethora of CC tools. You will be stunned, and low slashed to death denying you of your attempts to DPS without much effort.

 

Cut the butthurt attitude because you lost a DPS race to a sniper. You did something wrong.

 

I cannot do crap about argumenting against an ability of another class that I cannot play against. I have trouble dealing with entrench, so I will start BS and trolling forum people about how I am the guy that plays that spec, and disguise all this crap under a noble cause: I want my own class to be balance. I am looking for a challenge.

 

But since I cannot do crap and my argumentation was a fail from the beginning, I have nothing left but to get personal and accuse you of all sort of crap I can come up with. May be I can even make you feel insecure, I will imply that you are afraid of your own class getting nerfed and thus i hope to make your argumentation invalid.

 

This is how your post looks after being filtered with BS Translator .

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Sharee]

Stop taking MM talents as a substitute for the entire Sniper class. Explain what class are you playing against the entrenched sniper and why have you found yourself in a position that you are facetanking him and need to spam CC?

 

Why do you need to know what class i play? Can't i have an opinion on entrench regardless of that? Do the points i make regarding entrench somehow gain or lose importance depending on what class i play? Or do you just want me to give you some ammo for the "lol noob ur just doing it wrong" attack?

 

And finally, why should i tell you what class i play if you'll just reply with "lo0l ur just making it up" anyway (see a few posts higher)?

[NoTomorrow]

Why do you need to know what class i play? Can't i have an opinion on entrench regardless of that?

 

Oh man, why did you say that? That is the final nail in your coffin. If you don't want to discuss the balance in the context of abilities and counter abilities, then there is nothing to discuss with you.

 

Please, just so that you don't feel completely horrible, i will pretend you never wrote this.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[foxmob]

So you basically want to have an easy time with snipers while out of their LoS by dotting them and using instant attacks, while they are unable to activate/channel on you, while if for some reason you end up facetanking them, you again want to have an easy time by CCinng them. .

 

no, you condescending *****. either of the other two turret specs are ridiculously easy to shutdown in comparison to a sniper, from any other class's perspective. what - makes - sniper - so - special? snipers have better survivability than either of the other classes despite their miraculous healing abilities. they all need to stand still and cast. they all need los. two can be easily moved by any class in the game. the other is nigh impossible. what's wrong with you? get some perspective.

[NoTomorrow]

no, you condescending *****. either of the other two turret specs are ridiculously easy to shutdown in comparison to a sniper, from any other class's perspective. what - makes - sniper - so - special? snipers have better survivability than either of the other classes despite their miraculous healing abilities. they all need to stand still and cast. they all need los. two can be easily moved by any class in the game. the other is nigh impossible. what's wrong with you? get some perspective.

 

Are you asking sniper to being brought down to their level, or other classes to be brought to sniper's level (while losing their extra perks they have over snipers)?

 

If you probably noticed the nerf entrench guys in this thread, don't give a damn about Sorcs and Mercs, they just want the sniper nerfed so they can finally stop being bothered by a turret class.

[Sharee]

Oh man, why did you say that? That is the final nail in your coffin. If you don't want to discuss the balance in the context of abilities and counter abilities, then there is nothing to discuss with you.

 

Please, just so that you don't feel completely horrible, i will pretend you never wrote this.

 

Who says i don't want to discuss the balance in the context of abilities and counter abilities? I just don't see why you need to know what class i play for the purpose of that discussion.

 

So. Counter-abilities. That other classes can use against entrench. Other than 'run away'. I'm sure that will be a long list

[CBRGhostRider]

Before I say anything... sniper isn't my main (main is immortal jugg), see sig below. I simply play sniper from time to time for giggles.

 

To address the original post: Entrench is for sure overpowered, long duration, and low cd. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluding themselves into wishful thinking. But it is OP only in comparison to what other ranged classes DO NOT get. BTW, I don't want to say too much to fan the fires, but 23 sec long on a 45 sec cooldown? LOL, it can get MUCH better than that if you know what I mean....

 

That being said, I really would hate to see sniper nerfed. Simply put, sniper is a beautiful class. I just have to smile every time I look at my sniper skill trees, because there is so much synergy in the trees and the abilities fully support ranged gameplay, and controlling your opponents. The devs really did a good job on this class.

 

And I guess that is exactly why I do NOT want to see it gutted. Every other class should be brought up to the level of snipers, not the other way around. But beautiful things have a way of dying a horrible death in MMOs...

[Polymerize]

Anyone with half a brain reading this thread is saying that the OP is running circles around NoTmrw.

 

God he is making you look like an idiot.

 

Carry on OP; I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing someone get destroyed by someone other than myself.

[Selout]

Are you asking sniper to being brought down to their level, or other classes to be brought to sniper's level (while losing their extra perks they have over snipers)?

 

If you probably noticed the nerf entrench guys in this thread, don't give a damn about Sorcs and Mercs, they just want the sniper nerfed so they can finally stop being bothered by a turret class.

 

Back to that reading comprehension thing. I've already addressed why I am sticking to GS. It's what I know best. Just because I don't play a sorc/sage or merc/commando, doesn't mean I don't have two eyes and can't make inferences about what it must be like to play said ac. But, beyond GS that is exactly what they would be... inferences not first-hand experience.

 

I assume you have played WoW. Everyone has. In the upper echelon of that PvP community they mostly talk about the classes they play and most of them (Talbadar, Reckful, Cdew, Zunniaki, Ziqo, and so-on) understand that they will be good no matter what comes to their class. That's why they all have balance in the forefront of their minds and actively try to suggest changes that will be good for the game. I am not saying I am as good as them in swtor or even close. What I am saying is, they aren't short-sighted and starting down the road to real class balance isn't something that should be frowned upon. They realize a balanced game means more people. More people means more competition. More competition means more fun for them individually. So in essence you are arguing against your own fun. If it stays this way, fotm status will be granted and thus the endless cycle of MMO class "balancing" will continue. I for one, am sick of that merry-go-round.

 

I mean really, I make a thread asking for a longer cd on entrench/hunker down and the voracity and vitriol you exhibit is sort of odd. It's one of the many cooldown's we have. Not the end-all-be-all of the class.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Selout