Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[kwestone]

So it looks like we're waiting til 2.4 to see this actually addressed. It's just *awesome* that it's going to have taken the devs over 6 months to address the issue, assuming they actually address it, after ignoring it completely for 2 major patches (arguably 3, since 2.1 was released relatively soon after the topic started cropping up and getting discussed actively). The combat and content teams are simply *amazing* at their jobs. Very reactive.

 

(if you can't tell, pretty much all of that was sarcasm)

 

2.4 is all I am going to continue to pay for. If it doesn't fix it, BW, EA will never get another dime from me... I might rent a billboard in Austin across the street from BW that has a big calculator on it with the words "Got Math?" underneath it.

[PlasmaJohn]

I might rent a billboard in Austin across the street from BW that has a big calculator on it with the words "Got Math?" underneath it.

Coffee thru the mouth, out the nose, all over the keyboard... nothing but net. You sir, have won the Internetz.

 

Got an indegogo campaign for it?

[Kitru]

Got an indegogo campaign for it?

 

Is it sad that I would actually be willing to chip in $5 to see that happen? I'm kind of curious whether we'd actually be able to manage it. It would definitely send a strong message to the devs:

 

"Got Math? Sincerely, Shadow tanks"

[ArchangelLBC]

I'll chip in for that.

[Bilirubin]

I'll chip in for that.

 

+1 on the bandwagon

[Altheran]

Actually, tying it to Endurance would force them to tweak the armor curve exactly as much. Honestly, I would *despise* it if they attached it to Endurance because then tanking *would* be all about Endurance stacking and maximizing your hp pool for tank epeen, which I absolutely *despise*. Having to create a compromise between Endurance and mainstat is *much* more interesting than just having Endurance do absolutely everything you could ever want accomplished by it.

 

Maybe that's boring, but Shadows are the only tank AC with no mainstat increase and would inevitably be again the worst of all three if you tie it to mainstat because of it. When a Shadow would get 5% DR, a Guardian or Vanguard would get 6%. These number are off the mark, since it would mean Guardains & Co would have 20% more main stat with a strait stat without curve. If we take more realistic values, meaning that 10% of more mainstat will give less something like 5% of Shadows' bonus, putting the Guardian's/VG's at around 5.25%.

Still even if the difference is slight, the goal is not to put Shadows even more behind.

 

However, if you tie it to Endurance, Shadows will be the ones with the most by only a slight margin thanks to Shadow Training plus Mental Fortitude. Vanguards have a similar talent to Mental Fortitude in first tier of Assault that would allow them to not be left into the dust, and it could be a good attempt to shaken Guardians to their actual position because they would be the ones with the least benefits.

 

That's true that if the change is not done properly, the risk is that Endurance can become the most important stat. But do you really feel that this stat has any meaning at the moment ? We don't balance it with main stat, we get rid of it as soon as possible :

- Any B Enhancement/Mod ? Take any non-lettered instead.

- Endurance crystals ? Take power.

- Force wielding armorings ? Resolve are as good.

- Fortitude augments ? What is it again ?

Sometimes we take some Force Wielding armorings but that's only because neither Endurance nor Willpower are especially important. Isn't a stat that is labelled "tanking", with our gear containing plenty of it is so meaningless as despicable as if it would be too important ?

 

Let's consider that Endurance becomes an important stat... Would it be that bad ?

If we look at other roles, their most important stat is the primary offensive stat (Willpower/Aim...) aka "main stat" (they deserve this surname). DPS and Healers balance secondary stats like Crit/Surge/Alacrity, because it's here on their gear. Secondary stats are only here to increase further the main stat "job".

Isn't Endurance a primary stat as well ? Shouldn't it be the first layer of role determination like main stat, or rather shouldn't it be the tank's "main stat" ? At the moment, this "job" is only done by secondary stats, hence becoming the tank's main stats, and none of the primary stats have a great importance. Making it a "tanking stat" would just be a kind of standardization with other roles.

 

 

Now, the other problem is that whichever way it is implemented, through Endurance or Mainstat is that the difference in primary stats between AC is somewhat low, and so even if different, the amount of DR given to classes would be pretty similar... And we all know that 5% will be more valuable to a class that already has a high DR than another class with a lower DR. So the amount of DR given to a Shadow with a base of 40% of DR will be outclassed by the similar amount given to let's say a Vanguard exceeding 50% of base DR.

 

So, in order to fulfill his role, the change has to act independently to the player's DR. One of the ways to do it is the proposal I did some time ago in this thread : create virtual "stat" which amounts to min ( 0 ; End - Main stat) so that only tanks make use of it (ideally it would have to only take into account gear mainstat so that datacrons don't become an hindrance). Give it a value similar to mainstat but with a ratio inferior to 1, something like 1 => 0.10 (half of the value given by main stat). Make it affect ennemy damage at a different layer of defense, at the source, acting like a Mainstat/power debuff when attacking the tank.

With this exemple, when attacking someone with 2000 End and 1500 Mainstat, the attacker being a NPC or player will have his damage reduced like if he had lost 250 Mainstat (because the difference is 500, and the ratio is 1/2).

 

That's a change that I'd welcome for both PvE and PvP but as a part of a bigger overhaul which has to especially affect healers otherwise it would litteraly kill PvP with the actual state of the game. The change isn't implementable as a "stand alone"

Edited August 7, 2013 by Altheran

[Kitru]

Isn't Endurance a primary stat as well ?

 

That's a fallacious assumption. Endurance isn't a mainstat any more than Presence is. The tank "mainstats" are their mitigation stats: Def/Shield/Abs. If Endurance were *anything* approaching a mainstat, Endurance stacking would actually be intelligent, which it's not.

 

Seriously, I have no clue why the hell you have such a massive hard on for Endurance. Virtually every suggestion you make for tanks attempts to turn Endurance into the biggest baddest tank stat. It's like you're upset that tank hp values *aren't* ridonculously oversized.

 

Also, Shadow's Training is a joke. It adds a whole 30 Endurance to Shadows. You get more than that out of Datacrons. Acting as if would give Shadows *anything* approaching a real Endurance advantage simply demonstrates an inability to do math.

[Doulo]

Is it sad that I would actually be willing to chip in $5 to see that happen? I'm kind of curious whether we'd actually be able to manage it. It would definitely send a strong message to the devs:

 

"Got Math? Sincerely, Shadow tanks"

 

It's about $4000 per month for a billboard in Austin. Who else is willing to chip in?

[Kitru]

It's about $4000 per month for a billboard in Austin. Who else is willing to chip in?

 

So we just need 800 people. We should be able to manage that.

[ArchangelLBC]

Actually, tying it to Endurance would force them to tweak the armor curve exactly as much. Honestly, I would *despise* it if they attached it to Endurance because then tanking *would* be all about Endurance stacking and maximizing your hp pool for tank epeen, which I absolutely *despise*. Having to create a compromise between Endurance and mainstat is *much* more interesting than just having Endurance do absolutely everything you could ever want accomplished by it.

 

Honestly, it's completely unlikely that it will ever happen. Armor rating already functionally scales with Endurance and everything else since it's all based off of i-level.

 

Well if you adjust just based on endurance you only have to tweak the armor rating code in one place and can more or less make it global (accounting for one player stat). It would also go with the name of the stat itself which is aesthetically pleasing to me. If you adjust it based on aim/strength/willpower, then you either have to adjust it specifically for those classes based off mainstat (tweaking armor rating in three different places, even if it amounts ot a copy/paste and relabel. More places = more chances for the coding to go wonky), or sit back and laugh as all your tanks go out for datacrons that otherwise would be worthless.

 

You are right that having to balance endurance vs mitigation stats IS more interesting in theory, but in practice you get enough endurance to live and then start stacking mitigation as much as possible. Honestly the only reason there's as much balancing as there is comes from shadows taking B lettered mods either cause they're easier to get than unlettered (sup duelists belt/bracers), or as a deliberate sacrifice of mean mitigation to try and reduce spikiness.

 

As you said there is no tanking "main stat" like there is for DPS/Healing, but it feels like there should be and that endurance should be it. All that said, I honestly agree with you, and trying to tie armor rating to ANY stat is ultimately pretty silly. Still, it also wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if endurance had a LITTLE more value than it does (though given the massive amount of HP stacking tanks, maybe it's just as well it doesn't).

 

The easiest way to fix everything is *still* what's been suggested since the very beginning: increase DR by 4-5% (or armor rating by 35%) and either decrease defense by 5% or remove the heal from CT and pull the HS heal down to 1-1.5% per tick. It's really not that complicated, which makes me wonder why the hell the devs haven't done anything about it.

 

Yep. I agree. I'd personally prefer reduction of self healing. Granting 35% more armor rating is bringing back CT boost to prenerf leveIs as I said. Getting rid of the stance heal would honestly just be better for everyone since it's always been a pretty pesky thorn in terms of balance since they insist on making it heal a set amount which means it's contribution to mitigation always has to be adjusted as more damage comes out without also making it OP in PVP. Getting rid of it can honestly only make everyone's lives easier. I won't lie, I'd miss the over 700 a tick TkT heals. They are nice to see, and it certainly feels like getting those out properly without getting predictably interrupted is what separates good shadows from bad shadows, but it's a reasonable sacrifice for the greater good.

 

I think the devs haven't done anything about it because that solution presents itself because it's a way to bring spikiness under control while maintaining mean mitigation. Since, as far as we know, they aren't aware of such models, nor are they really aware of the discussion that has been taking place, it makes all the sense in the world that they haven't made the obvious change.

 

Of course that just reduces the problem to wondering why they continue to be so willfully ignorant.

Edited August 7, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Altheran]

That's a fallacious assumption. Endurance isn't a mainstat any more than Presence is. The tank "mainstats" are their mitigation stats: Def/Shield/Abs. If Endurance were *anything* approaching a mainstat, Endurance stacking would actually be intelligent, which it's not.

 

Seriously, I have no clue why the hell you have such a massive hard on for Endurance. Virtually every suggestion you make for tanks attempts to turn Endurance into the biggest baddest tank stat. It's like you're upset that tank hp values *aren't* ridonculously oversized.

 

Also, Shadow's Training is a joke. It adds a whole 30 Endurance to Shadows. You get more than that out of Datacrons. Acting as if would give Shadows *anything* approaching a real Endurance advantage simply demonstrates an inability to do math.

 

Yes, stacking Endurance isn't intelligent at the moment, but that's not a reason why it shouldn't be. Why it should be stat to avoid for anyone ? That doesn't make sense.

At the moment Tanks do not have a main stat at all. We only have a bunch of stats and none of them is the corner stone of our role, and neither of the most useful one is even a "primary stat".

 

I really don't care even the slightest about the amount of HP. What bothers me is how DPS and Healers have their output inflating while tanks stagnate. How valuable a tank is how he can sustain incoming damage of his own, in PvE as well as PvP. But, in PvP, the reality is that is the stats that are given to tanks to survive are only balanced to compensate respectively Accuracy/Crit/Surge (you can do a comparison of respective output of player using offensive rates and defensive rates at equal amount, by assuming that their base damage and DR are the same, and you'll see they tend to a draw or something close). Tanks have nothing to balance the output inflation from the abundance of main stat, power and weapon rating. Armor increases a bit each time you improve gear but that's a negligible amount. Each tier of gear improve DPS and healers, while making Tanks stagnate. So each time gear improve, tanks become more and more dependant of healers, and so become less and less meaningful. What we only get is more HP... yeah that make us balanced against a DPS alone, but screws us as soon as it involves more players.

In order to do something there are not many choices : improve Endurance or adding a new stat that will take place of other stats in gear budget.

 

And the last part... The best ! Now that because I didn't know the value and made assumptions that it could have an impact, it makes me someone unable to do math ? Please... at most it shown that I was uninformed.

I could return you the "compliment", you the one who proposed the stat that would obviously put Shadows even further behind other Tanks...

You see ? It's easy to do a personal attack. Is it because of the part saying thay Willpower wasn't a good choice that you got angry ?

You should keep cool and take your time before to respond when someone insist on contradicting you or proposing something not fitting your tastes. You know that it was an easy and uncalled attack.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Altheran

[Botho]

They could do the old classic and give Endurance a second function along with HP gain.

 

Some thing like I/E resistance would be typical. Not really anything to do with anything tho lol. Just always find that primary stats (Im not saying its our primary stat, just that its listed up there with str/wil /cunning ect ) with 1 function are a bit sad.

[Ancaglon]

It's about $4000 per month for a billboard in Austin. Who else is willing to chip in?

Put me down for $20.

 

But I still continue to hope that they are actually going back through their metrics and saying "how the heck did we miss this, and what else do the metrics miss?".

Edited August 8, 2013 by Ancaglon

[Doulo]

I completely misread the advertising costs. It's about $4k per panel of a billboard per month plus production and installation. There are three decent locations around BWs building in Austin, but the cheapest would be at upwards of $35k for a month. I looked at bus advertising too, for 49 buses (the smallest package) it would be about $22k depending on what materials we used. I will get an indiegogo campaign up in the next day or so.

[Doulo]

BTW, I think it is interesting that BW building is co-located with a culinary college. Perhaps the devs are busy testing food instead of testing the game.

[Kitru]

I completely misread the advertising costs. It's about $4k per panel of a billboard per month plus production and installation. There are three decent locations around BWs building in Austin, but the cheapest would be at upwards of $35k for a month. I looked at bus advertising too, for 49 buses (the smallest package) it would be about $22k depending on what materials we used. I will get an indiegogo campaign up in the next day or so.

 

Yeah, 35k and 22k put it kind of out of reach of the smattering of players on the forum that would chip in. It was an awesome idea there for a second.

[kwestone]

Yeah, 35k and 22k put it kind of out of reach of the smattering of players on the forum that would chip in. It was an awesome idea there for a second.

 

Yeah thats a lot of cash for a video game... Perhaps the culinary school would rent us a wall to hang a giant banner instead?

[Doulo]

I can get several yard signs printed and planted outside their parking lot for under $750. If there is someone in Austin that can receive them and put them in place, it would even be cheaper.

 

That would be more direct and ensure they see it as they roll into work.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Doulo

[Kitru]

I can get several yard signs printed and planted outside their parking lot for under $750. If there is someone in Austin that can receive them and put them in place, it would even be cheaper.

 

That would be more direct and ensure they see it as they roll into work.

 

Wouldn't we have to get permission from the landowner we're putting the signs on? Public lands that we could put the signs on aren't likely to be in a good position to actually get the devs to see them.

[Bilirubin]

Yeah thats a lot of cash for a video game... Perhaps the culinary school would rent us a wall to hang a giant banner instead?

Or write a message on a cake and deliver it downstairs for us?

[Ancaglon]

Or write a message on a cake and deliver it downstairs for us?

Great idea, and even if they don't like the idea they can still eat the cake

[Missandei]

Wouldn't we have to get permission from the landowner we're putting the signs on? Public lands that we could put the signs on aren't likely to be in a good position to actually get the devs to see them.

 

Oh cmon..Wasnt there in Austin any homeless persons? So there should be some social organization where you could find some homeless persons.. So you could ask them to sit/walk around that BW building entracnce holding some banners.... (all would be happy - hired person for income, you for cutting down the expenses)

Edited August 9, 2013 by Missandei

[Leafy_Bug]

Is it sad that I would actually be willing to chip in $5 to see that happen? I'm kind of curious whether we'd actually be able to manage it. It would definitely send a strong message to the devs:

 

"Got Math? Sincerely, Shadow tanks"

 

 

Put me down for 20 euros and a little extra if there is a dude following Jesse Sky or Austin P. with a sign with those words. :D

 

 

Quote from my stream :

 

Vanguard Tank : Force Speed is OP!

Me : Please don't take away my force speed!! It is the only thing I have left. They took away everything else. *me running to the pillars at Kephess*

Vanguard Tank : My hold the line is not as good

Edited August 9, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Gnimish]

Hey i know we haven't been fixed yet But...........

 

We can connect to Facebook now isn't that wonderful.

[MillionsKNives]

Hey i know we haven't been fixed yet But...........

 

We can connect to Facebook now isn't that wonderful.

 

I certainly wouldn't want the guy setting up the new Facebook interface/connection thingy to work on class balance.