Really now a days why can't soloers get end game comms from ...

[asbalana]

Yeah, I'm not sure why people try to play the RL card... that they have too many obligations and such.

 

There's playing of things for the soloist or person who's on time constraints to do in this game. Raiding requires time coordination with at least 7 other people... you are a special snow-flake and deserve to get everything handed to you because you cannot do that.

 

Actually I was not playing the RL card. I was responding to a statement of priories. BTW, never ever thought of that one as an obligation.

 

I am not sure that anyone has said that they cannot raid. As DarthTHC pointed out, read up, join a guild, and commit 2 to 6 hours a week. Seems to me, just about anyone can do that. Most people, for their own reasons, choose not to. Should they get the rewards that such magnificent efforts give? No, they are not asking for them. They are stating that there should be viable and enjoyable ways to also progress and grow.

 

I keep seeing people post that mmos are dead and people are not playing them any more. On the other hand, I am also reading that if you do not raid perhaps mmos are not for you, if you do not raid then be happy as a second class citizen with no real reason to continue to play. Yet the vast majority of mmo players are not raiders. Is there a cause and effect relationship there?

[DarthTHC]

I agree with this 100%. I have no problem with solo instances for solo players who wish to progress their toons. What I do have a problem with is the watering down of current operations for soloists. This to me would be a huge slap in the face to dedicated raiders who put time and effort into completing the content because if the operations allowed companions or something it would trivialize the content.

 

So I reiterate as long as the solo instances provide the same diffculty and effort then it's fine by me. But I do not condone at all the changing of current Raids.

 

How can a solo instance deliver the same challenge as a raid?

 

Have you done the H-2 on Makeb? The GSI one? Can you solo it?

 

What if you could do content like as a soloist that and as a result get gear that helps you do content like that better?

[Elear]

So I reiterate as long as the solo instances provide the same diffculty and effort then it's fine by me. But I do not condone at all the changing of current Raids.

 

Solo instance can't possibly reach same values for difficulty and effort, as on top of usual encounter difficulty, there is gathering and coordinating group of people. Between lags/diconnects, real life issues, not matching schedules, or odd peson that is fine raider but has trouble with this or that fight mechanic, doing anything in group is challenge all by itself. Challenge that can't possibly be emulated in solo content.

[Icebergy]

True raiders know that gear is the tool, not the goal. Gear is a means to an end. Yes it is fun to "sharpen" your tool by min-maxing, trying to hit certain caps, etc. But raiding is about working together with a group of friends to defeat ever increasing challenges.

 

You get the gear to help you defeat new challenges. I don't mean to be rude, but what challenges does the solo player have that they need better gear to overcome?

[DarthTHC]

True raiders know that gear is the tool, not the goal. Gear is a means to an end. Yes it is fun to "sharpen" your tool by min-maxing, trying to hit certain caps, etc. But raiding is about working together with a group of friends to defeat ever increasing challenges.

 

You get the gear to help you defeat new challenges. I don't mean to be rude, but what challenges does the solo player have that they need better gear to overcome?

 

Remember, for a moment, that you are talking to solo players who cannot or will not make the commitment to:

 

1) Learn to play their class right

2) Learn to itemize their class right

3) Learn fight mechanics

4) Commit 2-6 hours per week to a team activity

 

ALL on-level solo content just might be too hard for them regardless of gear level.

[Lostpenguins]

Actually I was not playing the RL card. I was responding to a statement of priories. BTW, never ever thought of that one as an obligation.

 

I am not sure that anyone has said that they cannot raid. As DarthTHC pointed out, read up, join a guild, and commit 2 to 6 hours a week. Seems to me, just about anyone can do that. Most people, for their own reasons, choose not to. Should they get the rewards that such magnificent efforts give? No, they are not asking for them. They are stating that there should be viable and enjoyable ways to also progress and grow.

 

I keep seeing people post that mmos are dead and people are not playing them any more. On the other hand, I am also reading that if you do not raid perhaps mmos are not for you, if you do not raid then be happy as a second class citizen with no real reason to continue to play. Yet the vast majority of mmo players are not raiders. Is there a cause and effect relationship there?

I was quoting the other guy specifically because I was agreeing with him. Even though he was directly talking to you, his point, in general, is my view to the OP and to those that feel that this game should be a solo-player game. Point-blank, it's not. It's not KOTOR 3. I have seen the argument in this game far more than I have seen in WoW or Rift where people who play MMO's want to get everything while never playing with anyone else and it really baffles me. To use an analogy I've used before: this game is a lot like joining a basketball league. You can't win the trophy playing solo, you can't have the team or the tournament play around your schedule, and just because you pay a league fee doesn't mean you are the one in charge. You're paying a league-fee like everyone else. The fee let's you play in the league. It doesn't give you the right to change rules just to suit your play-style. If you don't like taking jump-shots and can only dunk doesn't mean that you should earn 3 pts for a dunk and cry it's unfair.

 

And that's my basic viewpoint on a lot of criers in the MMO world. They show up to the league games and expect to be handed a trophy just because they decided to practice their free-throw shot for 10 hours a week...

[Eitetsu]

You get the gear to help you defeat new challenges. I don't mean to be rude, but what challenges does the solo player have that they need better gear to overcome?

 

Pretty much. I solo'd the Makeb 2-heroic(s) and other new heroics in "old" 63 Dread Guard gear. You don't need the new 69 and 72 gear to do your solo work. Hell, you don't even need the 66. This is all assuming, of course, you know how to maximize your class' effectiveness, which a lot of "casuals" don't.

 

All I see here is players wanting to feel like they play the game without actually playing the game. They got WAY too spoiled in pre-2.0 with all the top gear being craftable.

[asbalana]

Remember, for a moment, that you are talking to solo players who cannot or will not make the commitment to:

 

1) Learn to play their class right

2) Learn to itemize their class right

3) Learn fight mechanics

4) Commit 2-6 hours per week to a team activity

 

ALL on-level solo content just might be too hard for them regardless of gear level.

 

Poor statement that generalizes and defines all soloists which group includes many people who have raided in the past, done well, and choose not to continue.

 

1. It is not clear to me why an soloist will not learn to play their class well. Actully the entire leveling process is learning to play your class as it progressively growns.

2. Itemization in swtor is not rocket science. There are a million and one guides out there as well. Besides, how many of the non rabid raiders are perfectly itemized.

3.By this you probably mean raid fight mechanics. Meh, watch a few videos or read a few guides and you are there. When you solo,, you face everything the encounter can throw at you. Group content involves playing your role within the group and usually only requires learning the mechanics that apply to that role.

4. I would think that most people who solo play at least 2-6 hours a week.

 

Your last comment is just an insult to all non raiders and particularly to pvpers who are usually quite skilled (beyond any raider who is not dealng with human variables, but rather a fixed set of scripted mechanics).

[DarthTHC]

Poor statement that generalizes and defines all soloists which group includes many people who have raided in the past, done well, and choose not to continue.

 

1. It is not clear to me why an soloist will not learn to play their class well. Actully the entire leveling process is learning to play your class as it progressively growns.

2. Itemization in swtor is not rocket science. There are a million and one guides out there as well. Besides, how many of the non rabid raiders are perfectly itemized.

3.By this you probably mean raid fight mechanics. Meh, watch a few videos or read a few guides and you are there. When you solo,, you face everything the encounter can throw at you. Group content involves playing your role within the group and usually only requires learning the mechanics that apply to that role.

4. I would think that most people who solo play at least 2-6 hours a week.

 

Your last comment is just an insult to all non raiders and particularly to pvpers who are usually quite skilled (beyond any raider who is not dealng with human variables, but rather a fixed set of scripted mechanics).

 

If you've raided in the past, and you know how to play your class, and you know how to itemize your characters, then why on Earth do you need or even WANT anything beyond what the game already gives you to solo?

 

I'm a former raider. I know all that stuff and do it. I have mostly L69 purple stuff in my gear. I curbstomp on-level content including H-2's. There is no challenge. It would only be worse with gear 2-3 tiers better.

 

Aside from that, I don't WANT because I don't think I DESERVE top-tier raiding gear without raiding. Just like I neither want nor deserve PvP gear without participating in PvP. I believe it is a character flaw to want things that should be earned, without ever trying to earn them.

 

IRL, I don't think I deserve a Lamborghini or a yacht either, just because I "work hard". If I really want those things, I'll figure out how to earn them. I'm certainly not going to complain that I don't have them, nor am I going to start writing letters to Congress, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett asking them to please mail me one, just because I "work hard".

 

You're mostly right on the last bit. Definitely an insult to players who can't figure out how to play the game and want the game to hand them gear others have to earn because of it. They should feel insulted... by their own lameness.

Edited May 20, 2013 by DarthTHC

[psandak]

So, let's say, some operation gloves give 621 armor (rating 162), 124 aim and 216 endurance, then the solo equivalent would give 621 armor (rating 162), 95 aim, 200 endurance and 50 presence. Or something like that.

 

I have to admit, this is the first and only logical and viable implementation of solo end-game content rewards I've seen.

 

My primary argument against solo end-game content (with equivalent to raid rewards) has always been the unintended consequences - most notably the fact that hardcore raiders ALWAYS take advantage of every aspect of the game; if it gives them a leg up on group end-game content hardcore raiders WILL do it (Believe me, I was one of them). And in doing so they trivialize the group content that much faster.

 

If the Presence stat plays a notable role in the stat allocation of solo end-game content rewards then those who dedicate themselves to end-game group content are less likely to put a lot of time and effort into doing the solo stuff, because Presence is of no use to them in group content.

[haksilence]

There is no reason to be a "soloer" this is a Massive MULTIPLAYER online game. The entire game revolves around playing with people doing things in groups. Soloing has no place in endgame content

 

The brutal truth is if you wanna solo endgame your playing the wrong game. Go back to console.

[Lostpenguins]

So, let's say, some operation gloves give 621 armor (rating 162), 124 aim and 216 endurance, then the solo equivalent would give 621 armor (rating 162), 95 aim, 200 endurance and 50 presence. Or something like that.

Not really feeling this still. The fact that upgrading the rating on our hilts is the single-highest dps upgrade I can get would trivialize those drops in raids. Do you realize that 30 less on your main stat is 6 less damage, but the jump in teir ratings is 50+ each level? That's significant.

 

This game is not a solo-player game. Do not confuse this with KOTOR. This game is not going to be catered around your play-style.

[Eitetsu]

If the Presence stat plays a notable role in the stat allocation of solo end-game content rewards then those who dedicate themselves to end-game group content are less likely to put a lot of time and effort into doing the solo stuff, because Presence is of no use to them in group content.

 

With my 8 complete class stories, all datacrons, a human, and so forth, my characters have 910 presence without any presence gear. This gives my companions a whopping +4550 HP, +182 dmg, and +127.4 healing. It's ridiculous how much of a breeze non-group content is with that. I'm having fun leveling an "extra" 9th character, and my companion basically solo'd the first 4 1/2 planets before the game world "caught up."

 

Everything "solo players" need is already in-game. They don't need a special tier of gear just for them.

[Lusidious]

As a "solo" player you can get endgame gear but it will take some time. All you have to do is que up for hardmode flashpoints and do at least three a week. You will get your Elite/Ultimate comms to buy your endgame gear over time that way. Hardmode flashpoints take anywhere from 30-45 mins to complete depending on the group and you can get some 69 gear out of it. Granted you won't be able to get any set bonuses you get from raid gear but... You have to raid for that. You can also try to get into a pug hardmode OPS for EV/KP to get some comms for that each week. Those only take about 30-45 mins as well with a lvl 55 group.

 

So, as a solo player you can get endgame gear, it will just take longer than if you go in and raid the endgame content.

[theUndead]

Solo instance can't possibly reach same values for difficulty and effort, as on top of usual encounter difficulty, there is gathering and coordinating group of people. Between lags/diconnects, real life issues, not matching schedules, or odd peson that is fine raider but has trouble with this or that fight mechanic, doing anything in group is challenge all by itself. Challenge that can't possibly be emulated in solo content.

 

You misunderstand me. It's just an idea, but as I said I'm completely against raids being soloable at all. I was just giving out a potential idea of a compromise. But as a raider I'm staunchly against raiding contet being solo.

[Lostpenguins]

As a "solo" player you can get endgame gear but it will take some time. All you have to do is que up for hardmode flashpoints and do at least three a week. You will get your Elite/Ultimate comms to buy your endgame gear over time that way. Hardmode flashpoints take anywhere from 30-45 mins to complete depending on the group and you can get some 69 gear out of it. Granted you won't be able to get any set bonuses you get from raid gear but... You have to raid for that. You can also try to get into a pug hardmode OPS for EV/KP to get some comms for that each week. Those only take about 30-45 mins as well with a lvl 55 group.

 

So, as a solo player you can get endgame gear, it will just take longer than if you go in and raid the endgame content.

Not entirely true. You cannot get main-hands, relics, or set bonuses from the comms you buy. Plus, comm items have lower-grade Enhancements in them compared to their token equivalent.

[Eitetsu]

Not entirely true. You cannot get main-hands, relics, or set bonuses from the comms you buy. Plus, comm items have lower-grade Enhancements in them compared to their token equivalent.

 

And this is the crux of the issue I think. A solo player can get nearly the best, but not quite. And that's the entire point. If you want that stuff, you have to raid. Raiding requires time. Play time = money for EA and BW. That's how it works. If you don't like it, then I'm afraid MMOs aren't for you. Simple as that.

 

However, I must correct you: you can get arkanian relics with basic comms. Which are just slightly below underworld in terms of power. See a pattern here?

Edited May 20, 2013 by Eitetsu

[Lostpenguins]

And this is the crux of the issue I think. A solo player can get nearly the best, but not quite. And that's the entire point. If you want that stuff, you have to raid. Raiding requires time. Play time = money for EA and BW. That's how it works. If you don't like it, then I'm afraid MMOs aren't for you. Simple as that.

Yup.

 

/10char

[Kilora]

Not entirely true. You cannot get main-hands, relics, or set bonuses from the comms you buy. Plus, comm items have lower-grade Enhancements in them compared to their token equivalent.

 

While I know you can't get set bonus' -- you CAN get relics. Arkanian relics are Basic Comms.

 

And, I could be wrong, but I'm 99% sure you CAN buy main-hands. They require elite comms + reputation, and are sold at the rep vendor @ Makeb Planetary Station thingy.

[Lostpenguins]

While I know you can't get set bonus' -- you CAN get relics. Arkanian relics are Basic Comms.

 

And, I could be wrong, but I'm 99% sure you CAN buy main-hands. They require elite comms + reputation, and are sold at the rep vendor @ Makeb Planetary Station thingy.

1 - You cannot get on-proc damage relics. You can get click-on-use, but not the former.

 

2 - No, you can buy ilvl 66 mh ones, but ark are ilvl 69 and ult and ilvl 72.

[Kilora]

1 - You cannot get on-proc damage relics. You can get click-on-use, but not the former.

 

2 - No, you can buy ilvl 66 mh ones, but ark are ilvl 69 and ult and ilvl 72.

 

Aha. I wasn't sure what the ilvl was for the makeb purchaseable MHs. Thanks :-D

[Master-Nala]

Nonsense.

 

This whole "bolster" to PvE gear for raiding is complete dumb-sauce IMO.

 

You saying it doesn't make it so.

 

I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "raid gear". Gear that drops from raids is the strongest PvE gear. That's all it is. It is not needed to start raiding, it's a reward for raiding. Harder raids only need superior gear rewards because they are designed with gear checks to ensure that someone has that level of gear.

 

Let's say that all raid gear's stats were lowered to equal the top gear from Flashpoints. The lost stat budget was given to a new stat called "Mastery" which increased your damage, healing and damage reduction in operations. Mastery would do nothing outside of operations. Would that not be fair? Wouldn't that fully satisfy the 'need' issue? If you still believe that raiding deserves better stats in a system like this, the question I have is why? Why do raiders need to be able to dominate Flashpoints, dailies and PvP? If you need gear for raiding, why can't we tailor raid gear for raiding?

 

I posted these questions much earlier in the thread and no one answered them. If the argument for raid gear is that raiders 'need' raid gear for progression, then why don't we create a raid stat that only works in raids? Why does raid gear get to be overwhelmingly powerful in all other content when no other gear has that privilege.

 

I would be all for, this extending up and down the line. I would be for PvP gear having Expertise, Solo PvE gear have a ton of Presence, and Raid gear having some stat that helps there. But what I don't agree with, is that raiding somehow deserves to have the best gear for activities that don't have anything to do with raiding. If that continues to be the case ranked WZ gear should have 72 stats with Expertise tacked on.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Master-Nala

[Lostpenguins]

You saying it doesn't make it so.

 

I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "raid gear". Gear that drops from raids is the strongest PvE gear. That's all it is. It is not needed to start raiding as I stated above. Harder raids only need raid gear because they are designed with gear checks to ensure that someone has the gear.

 

Let's say that all raid gear's stats were lowered to equal the top gear from Flashpoints. The lost stat budget was given to a new stat called "Mastery" which increased your damage, healing and damage reduction in operations. Mastery would do nothing outside of operations. Would that not be fair? Wouldn't that fully satisfy the 'need' issue? If you still believe that raiding deserves better stats in a system like this, the question I have is why? Why do raiders need to be able to dominate Flashpoints, dailies and PvP? If you need gear for raiding, why can't we tailor raid gear for raiding?

 

I posted these questions much earlier in the thread and no one will answer them. If the argument for raid gear is that raiders 'need' raid gear for progression, then why don't we create a raid stat that only works in raids? Why does raid gear get to be overwhelmingly powerful in all other content when no other gear has that privilege.

 

I would be all for, this extending up and down the line. I would be for PvP gear having Expertise, Solo PvE gear have a ton of Presence, and Raid gear having some stat that helps there. But what I don't agree with, is that raiding somehow deserves to have the best gear for activities that don't have anything to do with raiding.

1 - Your suggestion is something I've suggested a long time ago when people were debating between PvP and PvE gear. My solution was very similar:

a) PvP and PvE gear have the same stats at the same weighted stats

b) PvP has expertise, PvE has mastery. They work exactly the same respective to PvP for damaging players and PvE for damaging mobs

c) Expertise only works in Warzones and FFA PvP areas, Masterly only works in FP's and Ops

d) Open world neither Expertise nor Mastery work, so both players are on equal footing when world-questing

 

2 - As I stated before, my problem with adding the Soloist group is simply the same rating level of gear. A hilt at a higher tier is still a dps upgrade for someone strictly on the fact that it's like a 50+ bonus damage jump, something that the stats on the hilt do not make up for in the difference between PvP and PvE. So, if there's now this soloist version, all raiders and PvP'ers would simply do soloist work, grab their higher hilt and use that until they've maxed out all other gear. All they'd need to do a buy another set of boots and now they're weapon is top-tier with just a slight reduction in stats on one piece of the mh weapon. Therefore, no, I don't agree with it.

[DarthTHC]

You saying it doesn't make it so.

 

I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "raid gear". Gear that drops from raids is the strongest PvE gear. That's all it is. It is not needed to start raiding as I stated above. Harder raids only need raid gear because they are designed with gear checks to ensure that someone has the gear.

 

PvP gear is not needed to start PvP. But it's needed to progress in PvP.

 

Raiding gear is not needed to start raiding. But it's needed to progress in raids.

 

Raiding gear is raiding gear. It's a thing. I happens in the vast majority of MMOs. It's there to be that extra-special reward people get for playing with other people and committing time and effort to learn how to overcome challenges. And since the people who do that tend to be long-term, stable subscribers, it rewards that, too.

 

Let's say that all raid gear's stats were lowered to equal the top gear from Flashpoints. The lost stat budget was given to a new stat called "Mastery" which increased your damage, healing and damage reduction in operations. Mastery would do nothing outside of operations. Would that not be fair? Wouldn't that fully satisfy the 'need' issue? If you still believe that raiding deserves better stats in a system like this, the question I have is why? Why do raiders need to be able to dominate Flashpoints, dailies and PvP? If you need gear for raiding, why can't we tailor raid gear for raiding?

 

Pretty sure raiders don't dominate PvP. Pretty sure I was a raider at one time and in full top tier raid gear, I would be little more than a pylon in PvP.

 

Raiders don't need to be able to dominate flash points. It's a side-effect of their raiding. And it is actually far more due to their knowledge and ability to play their class correctly in group situations than it is due to gear. Don't believe me? I'll take a raider in 148's over a non-raider in 156's (or whatever the L69 purples are) in my flash points every.single.time. You should try it sometime.

 

Raiders don't need to dominate dailies either. But who cares if they get their dailies done 5% faster than everyone else? It's not like it's a race and they sure as heck put in plenty of time in other areas of the game.

 

I posted these questions much earlier in the thread and no one will answer them. If the argument for raid gear is that raiders 'need' raid gear for progression, then why don't we create a raid stat that only works in raids? Why does raid gear get to be overwhelmingly powerful in all other content when no other gear has that privilege.

 

I would be all for, this extending up and down the line. I would be for PvP gear having Expertise, Solo PvE gear have a ton of Presence, and Raid gear having some stat that helps there. But what I don't agree with, is that raiding somehow deserves to have the best gear for activities that don't have anything to do with raiding.

 

Why re-design what isn't broken? Just because you can't reconcile in your mind that you don't deserve the rewards if you won't invest the effort?

 

Ridiculous.

Edited May 20, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Master-Nala]

PvP gear is not needed to start PvP. But it's needed to progress in PvP.

 

Raiding gear is not needed to start raiding. But it's needed to progress in raids.

 

No it's not. It's only needed because subsequent raid bosses are given [X] amount more stats. It's a circular argument you make. Raid gear is needed to progress because raids require raid gear.

 

Ridiculous.

 

Raiding gear is raiding gear. It's a thing. I happens in the vast majority of MMOs. It's there to be that extra-special reward people get for playing with other people and committing time and effort to learn how to overcome challenges. And since the people who do that tend to be long-term, stable subscribers, it rewards that, too.

 

Actually, that's true. It is a reward for sociability. That's what I said much earlier in the thread. So why are you peddling the nonsense that it's "needed"?

 

Pretty sure raiders don't dominate PvP. Pretty sure I was a raider at one time and in full top tier raid gear, I would be little more than a pylon in PvP.

 

Not anymore, no. But a raid geared character does better in PvP than a PvP geared character does in Raids.

 

Raiders don't need to be able to dominate flash points. It's a side-effect of their raiding. And it is actually far more due to their knowledge and ability to play their class correctly in group situations than it is due to gear. Don't believe me? I'll take a raider in 148's over a non-raider in 156's in my flash points every.single.time. You should try it sometime.

 

I have. I raided for years. Got off the treadmills. All you're suggesting is that people who commit the most time are better players, I agree. Why do they need to have a gear advantage that makes the content trivial?

 

Raiders don't need to dominate dailies either. But who cares if they get their dailies done 5% faster than everyone else? It's not like it's a race and they sure as heck put in plenty of time in other areas of the game.

 

You acknowledge then that there is no need here. Thanks.

 

Why re-design what isn't broken? Just because you can't reconcile in your mind that you don't deserve the rewards if you won't invest the effort?

 

Ridiculous.

 

Broken? No, not exactly. Tired though. It's a iteration of a system that's existed for 10-13 years in MMORPGs. It's why people clamor so hard for something new. Personally, I don't even play for gear. I logged into one of my characters and realized I was capped on PvP comms and Classic Comms one day. Game is easy enough without gear.

 

But my point, and from reading your post, you don't seem to disagree, is that 'Raid gear' is simply a prize given to people for putting up with raiding. Raiding can't stand on its own as content. Sure, there are plenty of people who would raid if raiding gear wasn't the best gear, but the fact is that a whole lot wouldn't. I'm not saying that's a bad or a good thing. But can we stop with the silly, illogical argument that raid gear is needed? It's not. It's a bribe.

 

EDIT: The folks I see who defend this system most often are people who actually DO enjoy raiding. So I can believe you when you argue in earnest here. But you know as well as I that plenty of people are there for the carrot and nothing else.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Master-Nala