Andryah Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) That's the thing, it does say what I actually wanted to say. "Sorry for complaining BW, we do like the game but we are frustrated". It's not right, but thats how it is. Really? Because I read the title as a stark validation for verbal abuse. Yet I read your post as much more fair and objective, even though I do not agree with it completely. I will admit that I take exception to verbal abuse, whereas others seem to condone it (or trivialize it). I have a very dear friend that was victim of constant verbal abuse which later led to physical abuse. She is still recovering from it. So I freely admit I am more sensitive about it then most. Abuse IS Abuse and it does lead from verbal to physical when there is a pathway for connection.. so the analogy is fair in my view. But I understand some do not agree with me on that. Anyway.. I don't want the thread to continue to derail over my comparison.. so my apologies to you as the OP. Edited May 18, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharka Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 No, the reason you rant and complain is the same reason we're all on the forums. Not a single one of us could get a date tonight. Pass the Ben & Jerry's, bust out the sweats and pop in 27 Dresses. It's going to be a long night. Actually, it's cos I am on night shift and it's a slow night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharka Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Really? Because I read the title as a stark validation for verbal abuse. Yet I read your post as much more fair and objective, even though I do not agree with it completely. I will admit that I take exception to verbal abuse, whereas others seem to condone it (or trivialize it). I have a very dear friend that was victim of constant verbal abuse which later led to physical abuse. She is still recovering from it. So I freely admit I am more sensitive about it then most. Abuse IS Abuse and it does lead from verbal to physical when there is a pathway for connection.. so the analogy is fair in my view. But I understand some do not agree with me on that. Again, I am sorry, but I don't see how you can draw a similarity to a heading about why people QQ about a game on a forum with domestic abuse. I have also been the victim of physical and mental abuse but I don't force a comparison or analyse everything people say. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontraz Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Pick a better Title IMO. One that reflects what you actually wanted to say.. which.. I did in fact read. I have no qualms at all with your post. That is why I specified my analogy as with reference to the thread title. Peace. Find something with a few similarities to get a point across, but overexaggerate those similarities to gross proportions in order to further an arugment, as your own example is more easily defeated. Classic strawman fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharka Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Anyway, back to the topic. Do poeple agree with my rambling opinion? Some have already replied but I'd be interested to know or hear what other people think. Sure, it has been posted here over and over by others in the past but it would be nice to have a clear idea of how people think the game can recover and what they are willing to sacrifice in order for it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slicksteezin Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) <deleted> Yeah, right. lol what? /facepalmingmyself Edited May 18, 2013 by CommunityDroidDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoogli Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) Do poeple agree with my rambling opinion? Some have already replied but I'd be interested to know or hear what other people think. Sure, it has been posted here over and over by others in the past but it would be nice to have a clear idea of how people think the game can recover and what they are willing to sacrifice in order for it to happen. Several things : Do you have a link for that article with the devs going away from forum because of toxicity, I would like to read it, thanks in advance ! Yes it's been posted over and over that many of us love the game and criticize what they don't like because they care. Sometimes it's very smart analysis and very constructive criticism, sometimes it's rants, sometimes it's clumsy, sometimes it's even worse. Also there is the rant type that is not necessarily written in a constructive way but that is helpful nonetheless because it gives a general appreciation of a shared feeling, be it by 10%, 50% or more or whatever in between. There are people who will dismis it by trying to spin it into the fact that it represent only a few angry forum posters whereas the reality is there are a lot of angry silent ones as well as non angry silent ones, in the forum, AND there also is some common conscensus that sometimes pop and last in general chat in game. 2 times I recall have been a heavy conscensus on chatters on the fleet : the nickel and diming for X-Mas, and general jokes about the credit-card content patch that is 2.1, there have been others but those were the 2 heaviest ones that I paid attention to. Then there is another thing to consider, the need "some" people need to understand that others when they criticize don't necessarily criticize the game or the artists or the coders but more so the managers, the decision makers or the marketing chimps or whatever... That said sometimes some game designers produce real asinine stuff as well and because they get called out for it (and noone needs to be a cook to know if there's too much salt in the stew) doesn't mean that the texture artist the floor below or the animation one the floor above needs to go into depression... It's perfectly possible to rant and still like the game a lot, still be amazed at the work of some texture artists (the first thing that struck me in Beta and left me in awe was actually the rock and cavern painted textures on Korriban) or voice quality, or story quality and little twists and surprises, the companions : I find them all awesome, and more... The people that tell you "unsub if you're not happy" should be careful what they wish for... They should be smarter as well and understand that people who rant on the forums are subbers since they can post, so they like the game, for the most part. Also the people who defend blindly, in each and every criticism posts, should show some discernment and realize some people who criticize in that thread will also defend in that other thread, that it's not all black and white. I've been told to "walk my talk" by some obnoxious defender of the game, or to "cancel if I wasn't happy" by others like 2 minutes after posting in another thread to defend the way some gear look, or to explain to someone else that he should give another try at that system (example : seeker droid) and do this and that and maybe he'll enjoy it instead of outright crying foul. It's never 50/50 of course... These days am quite annoyed and make it known. There has been periods on the other hands where I was praising this or that (a long time ago it would have been the rakghoul plague, more recently the Theoretika) and did little criticism at all for weeks. The thing is, you shouldn't be ashamed of giving negative feedback. As for the sacrifice we're willing to make ? Well we're subbing since the start for many, and have done even through periods when we didn't play much. I know there's been 2 months back in the days where I barely played and wouldn't have seen the difference if I hadn't logged in for a month or two. Either because I was busy playing another game and needed to take a break or because of other reasons. Still i didn't cancel my sub. Taking the time to help new players in game even if it means the thing you wanted to do this evening will have to be done the next day instead. Or help in the forum, some take on their play time to make awesome guides, other to make nice websites, etc... Of course it's a pleasure for them at the time they're doing it, but then when some "stuff" happen in some "patches" and some people are left with a sour taste : they may end up thinking "well they didn't deserve I put my heart into doing this, why did I bother", in fact just like a dev... But you know if there's something you shouldn't be too concerned about, it's devs morale, I know i'll get flamed for this most certainly but those people are paid for this, whereas we pay to play, be it with a sub or CC... And as such : the morale of all the silent players, and the non silent players, is as important, and sometimes, even if they don't complain : they get their dose of toxicity as well, of course not in the form of forum rants or forum insults, but in the forms of bad marketing habits, poor commercial management, horrendous nickel and diming, etc... Also, and why i'd like to read where you saw that toxicity thing that saddened some devs, it's because I think it's a bit exagerated since devs morale goes down way more when sub go down or there are layoffs, than just because of forum cries... Some people said in one thread "i'm criticizing because they're testing the waters and I want to let them know that the waters may not be so safe." (he didn't say it that way to be honest am just "bowdlerizing" it, so to speak). In the end, while not all criticism, or rants are warranted, some still are... Edited May 18, 2013 by Shoogli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 You're an idiot. There is a massive difference between verbal abuse and physical abuse. It is possible to post that you do not agree with someone's opinion without violating forum rules and insulting someone personally. If you find it impossible to do so it would probably be best for you to keep your opinion to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Really? Because I read the title as a stark validation for verbal abuse. Yet I read your post as much more fair and objective, even though I do not agree with it completely. I will admit that I take exception to verbal abuse, whereas others seem to condone it (or trivialize it). I have a very dear friend that was victim of constant verbal abuse which later led to physical abuse. She is still recovering from it. So I freely admit I am more sensitive about it then most. Abuse IS Abuse and it does lead from verbal to physical when there is a pathway for connection.. so the analogy is fair in my view. But I understand some do not agree with me on that. Anyway.. I don't want the thread to continue to derail over my comparison.. so my apologies to you as the OP. Andryah, you obviously made a mistake. It happens. Trying to explain it away just seems silly IMO. Your intent was obvious when you made the post. I think any reasonable person would have known what the OP meant, what the title meant, and I expect you knew exactly what it meant. I just think you slipped. It happens. You do this from time to time, we all do this from time to time, probably best to offer your apologies and move on from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrobearx Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 No it's not and to correlate a video game with something real that affects hundreds of people everyday is in bad taste. QFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharka Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 Several things : Do you have a link for that article with the devs going away from forum because of toxicity, I would like to read it, thanks in advance ! . This is the one I read: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-10-biowares-increasingly-toxic-forum-repels-dragon-age-writer-david-gaider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noblis Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I get what Tharka is saying. OP admires the game and while admitting there are shortcomings, those shortcomings can be overlooked due to a sincere admiration. It's like family: you may not like some of the things they do, but you get over the crazy stuff. Things are getting better. Some of the things people are ranting about are just negative people ranting. Most sane people tune out empty rants and you get no positive change. Tharka , in my opinion, is showing an effective way to get the attention of the devs in order to either understand where they are coming from, or possibly have them see his/our point of view. Plus everybody's got something to hide except me and my monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharka Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 I get what Tharka is saying. OP admires the game and while admitting there are shortcomings, those shortcomings can be overlooked due to a sincere admiration. It's like family: you may not like some of the things they do, but you get over the crazy stuff. Things are getting better. Some of the things people are ranting about are just negative people ranting. Most sane people tune out empty rants and you get no positive change. Tharka , in my opinion, is showing an effective way to get the attention of the devs in order to either understand where they are coming from, or possibly have them see his/our point of view. Plus everybody's got something to hide except me and my monkey Bingo! For me it has to be the silence of the Dev's on BW's forums. All we ever get is a 'it's in progress' or 'it is in the queue but has had it's priority lowered' and 'There are difficulties when we try to implement' What are these problems? Why have things changed in urgency, what else has appeared? Tell us why! Blizzard have Ghostcrawler on WoW foums who does regular blogs on development (used to, not sure about now) and implementing new features and the problems they had when implementing them. It might help if we were kept in the loop a bit more and had an understanding of your struggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noblis Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 (edited) This is what more people need. hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy - point of view gun The very end holds the best line. Edited May 18, 2013 by Noblis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyaniteD Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Anyway, back to the topic. Do poeple agree with my rambling opinion? Some have already replied but I'd be interested to know or hear what other people think. Sure, it has been posted here over and over by others in the past but it would be nice to have a clear idea of how people think the game can recover and what they are willing to sacrifice in order for it to happen. Yes, you do have a point. And it's something that's been on my mind, too. I've been concerned that valid, constructive criticism gets drowned by the aggressive, destructive kind and that the people who matter lose interest and motivation to use the forums as source of feedback on how to improve the game or how certain features or changes affected the players. Even on the PTS the tone is rough and aggressive. Gentle suggestions and nudges or reasonable voices get drowned out by rants. I'm not sure what I'm willing to sacrifice. I agree with some of your points, especially the one about stability and bug fixes being more important than rushed out "content". More than for cosmetics I'd be willing to pay for fixes and improvements that increase the immersion factor. Secondly, in-game guild features are still sorely lacking. We currently pay for a guild hoster, even though we are a casual guild, because it's the only way for decent guild communication and event planning. We'd be more than happy to spend that money (and more) on in-game guild features. I don't know what's technically feasible, I just know we're casual players with jobs and willing to spend some money on making our chosen leisure pastime more convenient and enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufarax Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 No, the reason you rant and complain is the same reason we're all on the forums. Not a single one of us could get a date tonight. Pass the Ben & Jerry's, bust out the sweats and pop in 27 Dresses. It's going to be a long night. My professional girlfriend had a previous engagement. My fix for SWTOR is (http://www.amazon.com/The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Pc/dp/B0081Q58AW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368858950&sr=8-1&keywords=TESO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharka Posted May 18, 2013 Author Share Posted May 18, 2013 This is what more people need. hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy - point of view gun The very end holds the best line. HA HA! ^^ This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediJonesJr Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I Just have one thing to say about this topic. YABA DABA DOOZY, HEY WILMA LET ME IN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 It is possible to post that you do not agree with someone's opinion without violating forum rules and insulting someone personally. If you find it impossible to do so it would probably be best for you to keep your opinion to yourself. If I ever "slip" like that, call me an idiot. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apeth Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Thread Title: is kind of like saying.. "I beat my wife, because I love her". Yeah, right. This was my thought to. Its actually quite a good post but the title makes me think of what andryah said here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyaniteD Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Bingo! For me it has to be the silence of the Dev's on BW's forums. All we ever get is a 'it's in progress' or 'it is in the queue but has had it's priority lowered' and 'There are difficulties when we try to implement' What are these problems? Why have things changed in urgency, what else has appeared? Tell us why! It says a lot that we have to go to websites like Dulfy's for dev interviews with more information. Apparently devs are more comfortable talking to a sane, civil, polite person than their "fans" in the forums directly. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colemak Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 Great, the one time we start having a civilised thread people starts complaining about a title because it somehow relates to a person hitting their partner. Bill: Jill, toast is not meant to be black, turn the heat down when it's your turn to make breakfast, I'm entitled to normal toast. You don't see the local restaurant serving black toast Jill: I'm sorry if I misled you into thinking I was going to make unburnt toast. You can still eat the leftovers from last Friday No domestic abuse there. OT: Similar feelings here OP. I do not like how 2.1 turned out one bit, and I have no problem with voicing it on the forums. I still like SWTOR because it's a MMO with pink glowsticks, blue people and most importantly Star Wars. However that doesn't mean I will worship the game as an infallible creation by a deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 If I ever "slip" like that, call me an idiot. Please. Now now Kat. Don't draw me into your conflict with Andryah. When it comes to you two I'm Switzerland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooty Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 It's like if I say "No offense but ...." right before I say something offensive. Then I'm covered to say anything I want and it's not offensive right? The most amazing thing is posters who have been complaining and ranting for months or years on message boards about this game. You'd think that statistically they'd make a useful post once in a while just by accident. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izorii Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I suspect that most people who post of these Forums do so because they like the game and want it to be better and they game they want to play. I know what STO and DCUO launched I played both but didn't commit because I was waiting on SWTOR , I never read the forums I never posted on the forums and I never really made friends because I assumed I would not be around as soon as TOR launched. Now I am having the same feeling about TOR so many things on the game need to be improved or I suspect a lot of people will move over to ESO. The moans and the issues most normaly people raise are about trying to make this game what they want it to be. Personaly I dont care about paying for fluff, I didn't mind paying for Cathar and I only bought it so they would invest more money into other species. However the depressing part is that the game just seems old and dated. We have very little end game conetent and most of it is just a rehash of lowever level flashpoints, PvP is terrible and pointless, crafting is not fun or interesting and chances are all we will get is more of the same content in the up coming patches. When people post here they are hoping that the Dev's will listen and improve things, not just to post for the hell of it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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