Cartel Coins have gone too far....in my opinion

[tiennen]

http://imageshack.us/a/img194/883/ealol.jpg

 

I hate 2.1.

 

This made me laugh really hard, even if it isn't true.

[branmakmuffin]

Yes but why the hell can't they just put the hairstyles in?

Because they want you to pay for them. Is that so hard to understand? If you don't like the price, don't buy it. Is that so hard to understand?

 

Is it too much to ask? I'm not a designer or anything of the sort but I'd bet on the fact that implementing hairstyles into the game isn't much of a task. There's no need to charge us with cartel coins. Just put it in!

It has nothing to do with how much work it takes to put it in the game, it has to do with "Can we get people to pay CC for this?"

[TheNahash]

http://imageshack.us/a/img194/883/ealol.jpg

 

I hate 2.1.

 

meh.

1/10.

the 9gag generation has been hijacked by people with no talent or humor at all.

[Ten_Ton_Hammer]

Yes but why the hell can't they just put the hairstyles in?

 

 

Because their customers have already told them they're willing to pay extra for nicer, faux-exclusive things.

 

Why give even more away for free? What MMO succeeds by giving everything away for free? They give you a pretty generous selection of customizations at the start. Anything beyond that is gravy. Not everything can be free.

[DarthTHC]

So in light of 2.1 having such divided, polarised views from the community, anyone up for a reasonable discussion rather than the caps lock infested threads that have swarmed the forums since yesterday?

Personally, i'm pretty disappointed in the sense that EA/Bioware seem to promise us with awesome features, build up the anticipation with exciting trailers showcasing these new features and then BAM - Cartel Coins. Coins are a good idea for individual armour (Eradicator being a good example), and other 'exclusive' items; however charging basic content with Cartel Coins is a pretty low move on their part. Not going to go through the maths of it all but, say you wanted to re-customise a character into a Cathar; firstly, you'd have to buy the species for 600 coins and then on top of that, changing a species costs ANOTHER 700. It all adds up to ridiculous amounts.

I love this game and I really want it to be successful. I just don't want them to rely on Cartel coins too much and end up losing tens of thousands of subs when they're faced with the prospect of having to use real currency on top of the Sub fees to stand a chance of having good gear thus having as good an experience as those who can afford the additional costs.

Open to a respectable discussion with anyone who disagrees/agrees.

 

Let's compare that change to Cathar to another game - one of the more popular MMO's out there.

 

And for that other game, let's say the cost of acquiring the ability to play the species is $0, even though it's more than that.

 

So here in SWTOR, you as a subscriber have to pay 500 coins to unlock Cathar and, assuming you're right, another 700 to switch a character to it. If you were to buy those coins at value on the market, that's, what, about $12.50? Give or take.

 

OK, but here in SWTOR, because you're a subscriber, you get cartel coins every month included in your subscription. You may get 500 to 700 but let's call it 500 and assume you have no security key. So to get the 1200 cartel coins, you have to somehow find a way to not spend your cartel coins for 3 months and you get it... for $0 in addition to what you paid for your subscription.

 

So for SWTOR, the cost of acquiring and switching to Cathar, over and above your subscription fee, is somewhere between $0 and $12.50, depending on how adept you are at managing your monthly cartel stipend.

 

Now let's look at that other game. The game in which we said the cost of the acquisition of the race would be $0. The cost to switch to that race is a flat fee in excess of your subscription of $25. There is no alternative. You cannot save up any sort of loyalty points or ingame currency or anything else to do that switch. You will pay $25. Just to switch to the race; not even to acquire it.

 

For those of us doing the math, that is somewhere between infinity and twice as much to only switch races in that game as it costs you in SWTOR to both acquire and switch to the new race.

 

Yeah, they've gone WAY too far.....

[InsigniaProtocol]

First off... please use more page breaks in the future. And now have a look at the bolded parts of your post. What you're referring to here are two different actions. The first one is to globally unlock a race on your account. This is very similar to how it exists today for the other races. The only component of this that one can argue is that the unlock is not necessary if you created and leveled a particular race from 1 to max level. That automatically unlocks the race for future use.

 

For Cathar, you pay for the unlock. For Subs, that's either one month to wait, or two. The only reason people are complaining is that they don't want to wait and would prefer to spend their free monthly allotment of CC on something else. Well tough, how you spend your allowance is on you. You can't complain that there are too many neat things to spend your allowance on. The point is to save up, or buy more CC. At least as a subscriber you have the option to save up. F2P do not.

 

Now as for the second feature/action, that's a completely separate thing. That's a cosmetic/vanity choice to change an existing character's race to something else. Just because it's coincidental with your desire to switch to Cathar doesn't make it any better/worse than say... if you wanted to switch from Rattataki to Zabrak. You'd still have to pay for that customization. No one is forcing you to switch a character to Cathar, you could simply unlock it and level up a new Cathar. You'd also get to see all the cutscenes as a Cathar... whereas a race switch would bypass all that.

 

Race change (as well as the other character customizations) are all cosmetic and vanity and thus correctly belong as something you need to spend CC on. Again, as a sub, you can simply save up the CC and wait on the cosmetic change. Why must you get it right away for "free"?

 

 

 

 

And then you leapt to a comment that talks about "good gear" which implies either PvE or PvP competitive gear, which has NOT shown up in the Cartel Market at all. Sure there's some leveling gear, but it's obsolete at 55. All of the rest of the gear is cosmetic, which still continues to fit inside the basic rule of the Market being vanity items only.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

 

New to the forums so...what are page breaks? Thanks for the reply though. I know my argument has a huge amount of loopholes, but i guess it's just up to the interpretation of the gamer in question. I perceive the cartel market to be 'over expanding' and being used too frequently whereas people like you rightly say, and justify your points with evidence, that we aren't entitled to free things. You've changed my view on it ( a bit )

[InsigniaProtocol]

Let's compare that change to Cathar to another game - one of the more popular MMO's out there.

 

And for that other game, let's say the cost of acquiring the ability to play the species is $0, even though it's more than that.

 

So here in SWTOR, you as a subscriber have to pay 500 coins to unlock Cathar and, assuming you're right, another 700 to switch a character to it. If you were to buy those coins at value on the market, that's, what, about $12.50? Give or take.

 

OK, but here in SWTOR, because you're a subscriber, you get cartel coins every month included in your subscription. You may get 500 to 700 but let's call it 500 and assume you have no security key. So to get the 1200 cartel coins, you have to somehow find a way to not spend your cartel coins for 3 months and you get it... for $0 in addition to what you paid for your subscription.

 

So for SWTOR, the cost of acquiring and switching to Cathar, over and above your subscription fee, is somewhere between $0 and $12.50, depending on how adept you are at managing your monthly cartel stipend.

 

Now let's look at that other game. The game in which we said the cost of the acquisition of the race would be $0. The cost to switch to that race is a flat fee in excess of your subscription of $25. There is no alternative. You cannot save up any sort of loyalty points or ingame currency or anything else to do that switch. You will pay $25. Just to switch to the race; not even to acquire it.

 

For those of us doing the math, that is somewhere between infinity and twice as much to only switch races in that game as it costs you in SWTOR to both acquire and switch to the new race.

 

Yeah, they've gone WAY too far.....

 

Your math may be right; i'm not going to question it. What I will question is the fact that more items will need to be bought with cartel coins in the future (2.1 is basically foreshadowing the future). 700 coins a month will not be enough to keep up with it. Let's take the maths aside for a while and look at it from a purely logical point of view. Why on earth charge people for cosmetic styles? Why not just implement it into the game? Not charging for a few skin tones will not break the game economically.

[DarthTHC]

Your math may be right; i'm not going to question it. What I will question is the fact that more items will need to be bought with cartel coins in the future (2.1 is basically foreshadowing the future). 700 coins a month will not be enough to keep up with it. Let's take the maths aside for a while and look at it from a purely logical point of view. Why on earth charge people for cosmetic styles? Why not just implement it into the game? Not charging for a few skin tones will not break the game economically.

 

There's an interesting word: "NEED". What MUST you buy with cartel coins now that you believe has established a pattern that we MUST buy stuff with cartel coins in the future?

 

They're charging people for cosmetics because:

 

1) They need revenue to run the game. Salaries. Facilities. Servers. Etc.

 

2) People will buy it.

 

3) It's NOT pay-to-win.

 

4) It is no way necessary to be effective at any aspect of the game.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DarthTHC

[branmakmuffin]

Your math may be right; i'm not going to question it. What I will question is the fact that more items will need to be bought with cartel coins in the future (2.1 is basically foreshadowing the future). 700 coins a month will not be enough to keep up with it.

To keep up with what. all the optional cosmetic and convenience items you "have" to buy.

 

Let's take the maths aside for a while and look at it from a purely logical point of view. Why on earth charge people for cosmetic styles?

Why charge people for anything? Why not just give away access to everything in the game?

 

Why not just implement it into the game? Not charging for a few skin tones will not break the game economically.

Again, you claim you want the game to prosper, yet you want it to effectively cost less. Well, who wouldn't want to pay less and get the same or pay the same and get more? If you think subscribing is not a good deal, why do you subscribe?

[Pubsam]

Of course CC have gone too far. I've never been very interested in the CM and have always just wanted to continue playing as a sub and for my experience to remain exactly as it was pre-F2P. And I have been able to do exactly that. But I believe the CM has been interfering with my enjoyment of new cosmetic features. Not necessary stuff. But fun stuff I enjoy. Everyone loves QoL updates, though unnecessary.

 

I was around when WoW first implemented its own barbershop. I didn't find the prospect too exciting at first as I'm pretty careful at character creation and already knew that I did not want to change anything about my toon to another default option. But when I found out they were introducing new hairstyles I got excited, and even if I didn't use any of them on all my toons I was happy just playing with them and enjoyed the feature. And of course, all these changes were done with in-game gold (and new hairstyles did not need to be unlocked). And I got this paying $15 a month, exactly what I pay for ToR.

 

Naturally next to that, ToR's iteration looks like crap. I'm not interested in changing to any of the defaults, and only humans got new hairstyles (when only some of my least favorite alts are humans), so I have zero interest in this feature and am actually disappointed that I had nothing to play with like when WoW's barbershop came out. And I know that should any styles for my mains come out that I like, that I need to spend CC, unlock the style in a pack with other styles I don't want (and priced accordingly), and then pay to change and hope that I don't get sick of the style and want to go back... it's disappointing.

 

And the dyes, christ, let's not even talk about that. Their only saving grace is I can buy them on the GTN, but I don't even want any. Come on BW! No one would've faulted you for just stealing GW2's system! We would've been happy!

 

I know it's BW's game and they can do anything they like with it. But as an experienced MMO player it's impossible not to feel let down. Maybe I was spoiled, but I'm used to better. And if this game never went F2P, I'd probably be getting better.

[Kurgun]

You don't have to pay for hairstyles. There's about 30 to choose from for human character creation types that are all free.

 

You have the option to buy some premium ones. If they never add more basic free hairstyles it's still a lot more than most other MMO character generators give you for free.

 

 

It's amazing how some will defend this because they get to use the whole "optional" argument all the while forgetting why play MMOs in the first place. Oh I suppose we should be happy to have to pay more money on top of more money each time they add in another cool customization "option" ?

 

Care to take a stab at the horrendous dye system while defending the "optional haircut" purchase.

[Lord_Karsk]

From my account

Your subscription has been cancelled.

Dont care about greed. When the game only focus on cartel shop and charging me

a sybscriver real money to change my hair they dont get more money from me.

[Kurgun]

I swear to god people like you just pick on anyone who has something critical to say of the game. From looking at the threads, AND in game; there are many people who are disappointed so my use of 'polarised' is quite justified. Anyway, this isn't the whole point of this thread so if you're here to discuss the phrasing and choice of words on my posts then leave. A discussion on the state of the Cartel Market and its currency is what I wanted to start here. Not an observation on the current emotive state of the swtor community.

 

He bases his argument on his own opinion. Looking at the forums and in game chat one can easily determine the majority of players are not happy with many many of the recent additions including cost on top of a paid subscription. The people who defend this are most likely those who either don't care for any of these options are who just don't care about how much money they spend on something.

[Kurgun]

Right. Because doodles drawn by a 12 year old make an excellent argument. I love 2.1. I think most players do. They're certainly buying the heck out of its stuff in-game.

 

There is where you went wrong, you base it on pure speculation on your part and ignore every single argument on these boards showing the majority to be pissed off.

 

Please show us these numbers you have to back up the majority of people buying up all this stuff? I doubt you have any evidence to show any of this. We on the other hand can point to the forums and what people are actually saying.

[DarthTHC]

It's amazing how some will defend this because they get to use the whole "optional" argument all the while forgetting why play MMOs in the first place. Oh I suppose we should be happy to have to pay more money on top of more money each time they add in another cool customization "option" ?

 

Care to take a stab at the horrendous dye system while defending the "optional haircut" purchase.

 

The manner in which dyes are obtained is about as bad as it can get from a player perspective.

 

But seriously why would anyone with the ability to think have ever expected anything but the most desired colors to be in random cartel purchased packs?

[Kurgun]

There's an interesting word: "NEED". What MUST you buy with cartel coins now that you believe has established a pattern that we MUST buy stuff with cartel coins in the future?

 

They're charging people for cosmetics because:

 

1) They need revenue to run the game. Salaries. Facilities. Servers. Etc.

 

2) People will buy it.

 

3) It's NOT pay-to-win.

 

4) It is no way necessary to be effective at any aspect of the game.

 

Another ridiculous fanboy argument. There is not one thing in this game or any game that is needed. The game is bought and played for pure entertainment purposes. Who gives a rat's *** if it's a cosmetic appearance or not. I am sick and tired of having to gamble my money away on top of my subscription cost for a freaking chance at getting the item or dye that I want. Then having to do it all over again the minute I change the gear I am wearing because the dye gets destroyed. Or having to buy an entire set to unlock the collections items.

 

But you know what, go ahead and keep cheerleading for them and helping to keep this ridiculous cash pit sucking more and more out of the customers. that's a damn fine way to ensure this game will not last.

[CyberTronX]

 

So in light of 2.1 having such divided, polarised views from the community, anyone up for a reasonable discussion rather than the caps lock infested threads that have swarmed the forums since yesterday?

Personally, i'm pretty disappointed in the sense that EA/Bioware seem to promise us with awesome features, build up the anticipation with exciting trailers showcasing these new features and then BAM - Cartel Coins. Coins are a good idea for individual armour (Eradicator being a good example), and other 'exclusive' items; however charging basic content with Cartel Coins is a pretty low move on their part. Not going to go through the maths of it all but, say you wanted to re-customise a character into a Cathar; firstly, you'd have to buy the species for 600 coins and then on top of that, changing a species costs ANOTHER 700. It all adds up to ridiculous amounts.

I love this game and I really want it to be successful. I just don't want them to rely on Cartel coins too much and end up losing tens of thousands of subs when they're faced with the prospect of having to use real currency on top of the Sub fees to stand a chance of having good gear thus having as good an experience as those who can afford the additional costs.

Open to a respectable discussion with anyone who disagrees/agrees.

 

 

Use your enter key more than once an hour and I will actually read what I just quoted.

 

My view is this: Small changes should cost credits, species and things like changing your character's physical structure should cost CC. It costs real money in most other MMOs, so I'm fine with it here as it's not something I screw with enough to care.

 

Real content is PVE and PVP. That is what the sub fee is for, not visual crap that does nothing to the gameplay. The monthly CC grant (albeit low) is just a bonus.

 

Also, the point of gambling your CC away is a joke. Go to the GTM, buy the dyes you want with credits. Problem solved. I haven't bought one single pack in ToR other than to p*ss away CC I didn't need.

Edited May 15, 2013 by CyberTronX

[DarthTHC]

Another ridiculous fanboy argument. There is not one thing in this game or any game that is needed. The game is bought and played for pure entertainment purposes. Who gives a rat's *** if it's a cosmetic appearance or not. I am sick and tired of having to gamble my money away on top of my subscription cost for a freaking chance at getting the item or dye that I want. Then having to do it all over again the minute I change the gear I am wearing because the dye gets destroyed. Or having to buy an entire set to unlock the collections items.

 

But you know what, go ahead and keep cheerleading for them and helping to keep this ridiculous cash pit sucking more and more out of the customers. that's a damn fine way to ensure this game will not last.

 

Why do you have to "gamble your money away" for a chance at the dye you want? Why not just sit patiently for ~3 days until the dye pack you want can be posted to GTN? Poor impulse control?

 

Of course THEN you can complain that it looks like some kid spraypainted your armor, which is a perfectly legitimate complaint.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Kurgun]

The manner in which dyes are obtained is about as bad as it can get from a player perspective.

 

But seriously why would anyone with the ability to think have ever expected anything but the most desired colors to be in random cartel purchased packs?

 

Seriously, after seeing how other games have done dye systems it was a no-brainer. I honestly thought the dyes would be purchasable with CC for THE ONE you actually wanted. Not this greedy kick in the nuts. And these companies have the nerve to wonder why their products fail.

[CyberTronX]

Why do you have to "gamble your money away" for a chance at the dye you want? Why not just sit patiently for ~3 days until the dye pack you want can be posted to GTN? Poor impulse control?

 

Of course THEN you can complain that it looks like some kid spraypainted your armor, which is a perfectly legitimate complaint.

 

People will never, NEVER use all the options open to them. They'll simply cry when their favorite method now costs money. Personally, I have zero problems with buying dyes and character renames off the GTN whenever someone bites the bullet and stocks up.

 

In fact I'm ECSTATIC that they CAN be bought on the GTN.

[DarthTHC]

Seriously, after seeing how other games have done dye systems it was a no-brainer. I honestly thought the dyes would be purchasable with CC for THE ONE you actually wanted. Not this greedy kick in the nuts. And these companies have the nerve to wonder why their products fail.

 

OTHER games.

 

THIS game.

 

They're different. There is a well-established pattern in THIS game. Many, actually.

 

One of them is that they don't implement stuff the way other games do until player departures force them to (ex.: groupfinder).

 

Another is that they put desired cosmetic items into random packs that cost cartel coins.

 

I use those patterns to inform my expectations. It helps me avoid these sorts of disappointments and WTK(riff) moments.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DarthTHC

[FuulishOne]

There is where you went wrong, you base it on pure speculation on your part and ignore every single argument on these boards showing the majority to be pissed off.

 

Please show us these numbers you have to back up the majority of people buying up all this stuff? I doubt you have any evidence to show any of this. We on the other hand can point to the forums and what people are actually saying.

 

The problem with this type of argument is that we're all using gut feeling and perceived "feelings" to connote whether this is a good patch or not. Unfortunately there's not enough real evidence either way to support either point. We simply cannot know if more people like or dislike the patch.

 

I think both camps can agree that it would've been nice if...

 

a) Cathar was free to choose as a race for Subs when starting a new toon

b) Baseline appearance changes were free or nearly free (i.e. being able to go back and dwiddle your character selection screen choices)

c) The armor dye system was implemented as 2013 tech as opposed 2003 tech (meaning if the armor textures actually looked nice with the colors as opposed to simply slapped on in some cases).

 

Those are "nice ifs..." the implementation chosen by BioWare might not have been the best, but certainly wasn't the deathknell for the game as many of the extremists on the forums are spouting.

[Kurgun]

Why do you have to "gamble your money away" for a chance at the dye you want? Why not just sit patiently for ~3 days until the dye pack you want can be posted to GTN? Poor impulse control?

 

Of course THEN you can complain that it looks like some kid spraypainted your armor, which is a perfectly legitimate complaint.

 

Oh really? So I wait and get the color I want for what? 10 million in game credits that can only be used ONCE. One single lousy time on one piece of armor. Then I have to shell over more for another of the "popular" colors. If you don't understand this by now I am not going to try and convince you any more why this is a piss poor system.

 

But yeah just go ahead and keep on defending this nonsense.

[Kurgun]

OTHER games.

 

THIS game.

 

They're different. There is a well-established pattern in THIS game. Many, actually.

 

One of them is that they don't implement stuff the way other games do until player departures force them to (ex.: groupfinder).

 

Another is that they put desired cosmetic items into random packs that cost cartel coins.

 

I use those patterns to inform my expectations. It helps me avoid these sorts of disappointments and whiskey-tango-foxtrot moments.

 

Yes how dare we compare to OTHER games who have infinitely better systems such as the dye system. How dare we demand something equal or better than what is out there already. We should just be so damn grateful when we are milked like cows.

 

Why do I get the feeling you either work for them or gain something from them and that is why you defend all this nonsense.

[DarthTHC]

Oh really? So I wait and get the color I want for what? 10 million in game credits that can only be used ONCE. One single lousy time on one piece of armor. Then I have to shell over more for another of the "popular" colors. If you don't understand this by now I am not going to try and convince you any more why this is a piss poor system.

 

But yeah just go ahead and keep on defending this nonsense.

 

Oh, it's absolutely a nasty system for players. However, it's cosmetic. It's not required. It does nothing except, IMO, make your armor look like crap. Getting so bent out of shape over it is laughable.

 

If you don't want to pay 10 mil, wait longer. Prices come down on everything. At some point, you will find the right balance between your patience and budget.