You people shouldn't blame Bioware; You should blame yourselves.

[Sir-Coffee]

It's from the horse's mouth. Go watch Jeff Hickman's interviews he says exactly this. The Dr's lost their positions with EA, many many people were laid off, and eventually the game's poor performance even was one of the many reasons EA fired it's CEO. It's not fiction. Without the cartel market the game was in serious trouble.

Agreed. They needed the extra revenue.

Subscriptions alone will not support a modern MMO anymore. Too many people are adverse to them but are willing to spend for other things.

 

Completely false. If a game had 2.5million subscribers, they could easily support a modern MMO.

 

For example, let's say TESO was successful and had between 1.5mil--->3mil subscribers, they could easily support themselves.

[Tim-ONeil]

No i asked you a direct question, do you honestly think if they let us use our ingame currency on the kiosk and collections tab that the game will be shut down.

 

No, but since they know full well we will pay for it and it's an opt in service... what is the incentive to pass up more job security/revenue? Good will? HAHA read these forums, no one is ever pleased with anything.

 

Why is the appearance changer in WoW free? Because it was introduced in the era before micro transactions in a subscription only based game.

 

Different game, different era, different expectation.

[Shingara]

No,.

 

 

Thats all you had to say, so what are you on about exactly.

[Tim-ONeil]

Completely false. If a game had 2.5million subscribers, they could easily support a modern MMO.

 

For example, let's say TESO was successful and had between 1.5mil--->3mil subscribers, they could easily support themselves.

 

No game other than Wow has ever achieved that. If you are betting on that as being sustainable you better have a plan B especially after watching this game launch.

[Tim-ONeil]

Thats all you had to say, so what are you on about exactly.

 

No problem. Carry on. Reason and business sense isn't needed to post here.

 

Nothing is free anymore. Welcome to the evolution of the MMO.

[Shingara]

No problem. Carry on. Reason and business sense isn't needed to post here.

 

Nothing is free anymore. Welcome to the evolution of the MMO.

 

Well its not free because we pay subscriptions and we use ingame currency too, but im wondering what will you justify next with the 'profit line' clause.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Shingara

[Tim-ONeil]

Well its not free because we pay subscriptions and we use ingame currency too, but im wondering what will you justify next with the 'profit line' clause.

 

Pay subscriptions? I'm in the minority as a sub. Most of their players aren't paying anything. I think that's the problem you still are thinking in terms of a sub only MMO economy. If it was then yes paying for that would be ridiculous. As it's a free to play hybrid, it's the standard business model.

[Sir-Coffee]

No game other than Wow has ever achieved that. If you are betting on that as being sustainable you better have a plan B especially after watching this game launch.

 

I'm just stating that a game technically could. I am not predicting the future, just stating that it's possible.

[Shingara]

Pay subscriptions? I'm in the minority as a sub. Most of their players aren't paying anything. I think that's the problem you still are thinking in terms of a sub only MMO economy. If it was then yes paying for that would be ridiculous. As it's a free to play hybrid, it's the standard business model.

 

Right so im guessing you justify this on whats important to you, so lets pick something i dont really care about, Next operation out will cost 600cc for subscribers and 1200cc for f2p players. Is that justified ?

[Tim-ONeil]

I'm just stating that a game technically could. I am not predicting the future, just stating that it's possible.

 

It's possible. And for the last 10 years every MMO thought and tried to achieve this. They all failed. In that failure the F2P hybrid model evolved as the most lucrative and that's why it's popular now. So yes if you are a major publisher that is going to roll the dice on getting there the odds are against you and you need to have a plan B especially after seeing how SWTOR recovered. Just imagine if the CM was out last spring. They waited way too long and it nearly killed them.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Tim-ONeil

[Tim-ONeil]

Right so im guessing you justify this on whats important to you, so lets pick something i dont really care about, Next operation out will cost 600cc for subscribers and 1200cc for f2p players. Is that justified ?

 

Then the subscription will have no value and we'll all be F2P'ers. Bad example. As long as I can play all of the in game content - the kiosk isn't content- then my sub has value. When it doesn't allow me to do that the value is gone.

[Sir-Coffee]

It's possible. And for the last 10 years every MMO thought and tried to achieve this. They all failed. In that failure the F2P hybrid model evolved as the most lucrative and that's why it's popular now. So yes if you are a major publisher that is going to roll the dice on getting there the odds are against you and you need to have a plan B especially after seeing how SWTOR recovered.

 

It's possible. The only reason I am saying that is because you stated it HAD to be done this way.

[Shingara]

Then the subscription will have no value and we'll all be F2P'ers. Bad example. As long as I can play all of the in game content - the kiosk isn't content- then my sub has value. When it doesn't allow me to do that the value is gone.

 

Its not a bad example though is it under your ideals, you arnt blocked from doing operations, it has no impact upon me, i like to rp and play space so its basically fluff to me. People being charged cc for operations is part of the cash market that your talking about. As it stand the only thing subscription covers is access to those without a lockout. The value required to unlock an operation at 600cc is one months coins.

 

And to quote you,

 

Pay subscriptions? I'm in the minority as a sub. Most of their players aren't paying anything. I think that's the problem you still are thinking in terms of a sub only MMO economy. If it was then yes paying for that would be ridiculous. As it's a free to play hybrid, it's the standard business model.

 

its the exact system TSW uses.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Shingara

[Tim-ONeil]

It's possible. The only reason I am saying that is because you stated it HAD to be done this way.

 

I think that after doing the market research there can't be any other conclusion really. F2P makes more revenue than an equal number of subs do alone. So if you have 2 million + subs to start plus a F2P option it's even more money.

[Sir-Coffee]

I think that after doing the market research there can't be any other conclusion really. F2P makes more revenue than an equal number of subs do alone. So if you have 2 million + subs to start plus a F2P option it's even more money.

 

I'm not even saying that you can make more money, I am just stating that you can thrive without it.

 

If it weren't for players leaving this game, we would still be in subscription mode, but that was Bioware's fault.

 

Right now, players are to blame for the state of the game.

[Arkerus]

No your taking the argument to the next level, of which i dont disagree with but isnt the point of fact here. The game was loosing players but this is subjective. Did it loose people cos people completed the game and the answer is yes. Did more leave because they stopped development whilst F2P was done. What ifs are whit if they just dropped the content they were going too, but thats a debate for a dif day.

 

The fact of the matter is that subscriptions was and always have been profitable for swtor. its never dipped into the red. The did F2P to increase profits, of which it did but Subs still never lost its monetry profit value did it. They just wernt happy with just being profitable.

 

But this here that we have now is beyond profit lines and the good for the game, but i mean you give me one logical reason why for example the kiosk doesnt have a ingame currency option for same race remodels.

 

Im just gonna put this in here and pls do share the reply to andryah, that said i would say double profits are highly profitable and not breadline when the line for major profits was 500k subscribers revanue on its own.

 

You just don't get it. You don't understand how th real world works and it shows.

[Draekos]

I havent bought a cartel coin, but I have no issue with how others spend their money. If the price is too high for you, work harder or save longer, no need to grief others who might be better off.

[Shingara]

You just don't get it. You don't understand how th real world works and it shows.

 

I dont realise how th real world works aye. lol

Edited May 15, 2013 by Shingara

[Tim-ONeil]

I'm not even saying that you can make more money, I am just stating that you can thrive without it.

 

If it weren't for players leaving this game, we would still be in subscription mode, but that was Bioware's fault.

 

Right now, players are to blame for the state of the game.

 

I agree with that to a point. And in many ways I blame players for the lack of a rival to WoW. A player has no idea what a successful MMO is. They can tell you what they want but it likely won't be what the next person wants.

 

If you ask 100 people what their ideal MMO would be like you'd get at least 50 different answers I'll bet. Give players years in advance to dream up what they want a game like SWTOR to have and they will ultimately be disappointed when they play the product because they were not personally involved in the decision making. It won't have x or y feature that they need or there will be some other complaint.

 

Initially that was a lot of the QQ about this game. Not enough like game x, too much like game y, where is cool feature z. In the past MMO's were a new developing genre so those first successful games like Everquest and WoW got a pass. They evolved the genre they showed gamers new things. We didn't complain as much. We played, we enjoyed, we got engrossed in the experience.

 

Then the market exploded in the wake of WoW's success.

 

Now there is a huge playbook to the MMO. Tons of games, choices, design decisions. It's impossible to be the new WoW because the market changed. You have competition from tons of other games. Everything has been copied in someway if it works.

 

So yes we are left with unrealistic expectations as players. We want a game that had 7 years of content development at launch like WoW has today, with the graphics of a completely modern game, and fully developed quality of life tools. If we don't get that (and no one can deliver it) then we will go back to our old and beloved MMO.

 

It would be a really hard sell to get the funding for a AAA MMO today especially after SWTOR's launch.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Tim-ONeil

[Sir-Coffee]

I havent bought a cartel coin, but I have no issue with how others spend their money. If the price is too high for you, work harder or save longer, no need to grief others who might be better off.

 

You're missing the point of this thread.

 

This thread is about how people spending their money impacts the future "content" of this game. This "Patch" was intended to milk subscribers and gain money, even though they have already doubled their profits.From a business standpoint, why not? People are buying regardless, but what does this change in the future?

 

Well, they may start upping their frequency of sleazy tactics in order to pocket more money. People want to see Quality of Life Updates, PvP improvement, PvE changes, Space improvement, CE updates, and the list goes on and on.

[branmakmuffin]

Fact: If you don't like how Bioware is milking subscribers, then don't purchase things from the Cartel Market

True enough.

[Miskenzar]

I have a large amount of disposable income and I choose to spend it on items in this game that I enjoy. I also choose to support a game I like with a subscription and over $200 per month in cartel spending. I do this happily because I like the game. Some people drink, others go to casinos, I play MMO's. It's my hobby.

 

I (and others like me) am totally to blame.

 

I (and others like me) am the reason that this game is thriving and things are looking up for the future. Rather than being mostly left off the EA shareholder report as it had been in the past the game was a high note for the company talking about revenue growth and increased profit. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but profitable companies do not invest money in low revenue ventures. More cartel spending equal more development for the game. This is a positive sign if you enjoy SWTOR.

 

So in essence I (and others like me) am to blame for your future content, the continued salaries and jobs for developers, and the all around good vibes and recovering PR for this game.

 

I will never ask you to thank me either, but you can continue to blame me if you want.

 

Great, so with your support and people like you... They will continue to create Cartel items for you to spend money on instead of serious game patches or bug fixes that make the game enjoyable.

 

Seriously though... you spend $200 a month on cartel garbage? What is there that is worth spending that much money on? How many suits of armor do you really need?

[Draekos]

You're missing the point of this thread.

 

This thread is about how people spending their money impacts the future "content" of this game. This "Patch" was intended to milk subscribers and gain money, even though they have already doubled their profits.From a business standpoint, why not? People are buying regardless, but what does this change in the future?

 

Well, they may start upping their frequency of sleazy tactics in order to pocket more money. People want to see Quality of Life Updates, PvP improvement, PvE changes, Space improvement, CE updates, and the list goes on and on.

 

Or we could just see things differently. I see this as good for the game. SWTOR was heading for a very early grave and for the moment they seem to have pulled back from the brink. EA actually mentioned the game in a positive light at the last investor call. In a years time we will see what happens. It sure is possible all the money will go into the executives pockets, but it is also possible they are able to retain(maybe even hire!) staff to develop more game content.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Draekos

[Arkerus]

I agree with that to a point. And in many ways I blame players for the lack of a rival to WoW. A player has no idea what a successful MMO is. They can tell you what they want but it likely won't be what the next person wants.

 

If you ask 100 people what their ideal MMO would be like you'd get at least 50 different answers I'll bet. Give players years in advance to dream up what they want a game like SWTOR to have and they will ultimately be disappointed when they play the product because they were not personally involved in the decision making. It won't have x or y feature that they need or there will be some other complaint.

 

Initially that was a lot of the QQ about this game. Not enough like game x, too much like game y, where is cool feature z. In the past MMO's were a new developing genre so those first successful games like Everquest and WoW got a pass. They evolved the genre they showed gamers new things. We didn't complain as much. We played, we enjoyed, we got engrossed in the experience.

 

Then the market exploded in the wake of WoW's success.

 

Now there is a huge playbook to the MMO. Tons of games, choices, design decisions. It's impossible to be the new WoW because the market changed. You have competition from tons of other games. Everything has been copied in someway if it works.

 

So yes we are left with unrealistic expectations as players. We want a game that had 7 years of content development at launch like WoW has today, with the graphics of a completely modern game, and fully developed quality of life tools. If we don't get that (and no one can deliver it) then we will go back to our old and beloved MMO.

 

It would be a really hard sell to get the funding for a AAA MMO today especially after SWTOR's launch.

 

This is it right here. You can't expect a sub based MMO after juggernaut wow because people will constantly compare the new product to the old product they know and love. Most people will anyway. Not everyone.

 

Quite literally, thanks to WoW, you cant expect a sub based game to thrive because its not WoW. (This doesn't include the extreme niche games like Eve of course.)

 

TOR is a mass market based MMO and the only logical choice was F2P and sub model in one.

 

If you think otherwise you are simply being stubborn or willfully ignornant.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Arkerus

[Sir-Coffee]

Or we could just see things differently. I see this as good for the game. SWTOR was heading for a very early grave and for the moment they seem to have pulled back from the brink. EA actually mentioned the game in a positive light at the last investor call. In a years time we will see what happens. It sure is possible all the money will go into the executives pocket, but it is also possible they are able to retain(maybe even hire!) staff to develop more game content.

 

Of course they mentioned this game in a positive light. They are making double the revenue and they know players will keep throwing RL money at them.

 

This would be very good for this game, if players weren't ignorant and stopped throwing money at them. Now is the time to fix this game and get back subscribers. Sure, they can keep adding reasonably priced items into this game, but they should focus on the actual game. Want to know why they don't? YOU PEOPLE KEEP PURCHASING THINGS FROM THE CARTEL MARKET AND RUINING THIS GAME./rant

 

You want this game to flourish? Stop purchasing items from the Cartel Market, and stop supporting all of these milking methods.