You people shouldn't blame Bioware; You should blame yourselves.

[Zsavooz]

Hi. I'd like to introduce you to the business world and real life.

 

In real life a product like that is making say, a mediocre profit margin, will not make a lot of money for the company. This means less programmers, smaller salaries, less updates, less trips on the company plane, etc etc.

 

It makes sense to boost the profit margin. Now you can hire more programmers, more project managers, build more content, raise salaries, buy jets, create more content, etc!

 

See how that works?

 

wow, using a business model to justify corruption is truly inane. This is a gaming company and typically attracts younger people, not your Wall Street types. It's like Kelloggs selling Sugar Frosted Flakes to kids and saying it's healthy for you. Don't confuse EASham with real companies because they are listed, they are using you with false marketing and lies. They appeal to the young because they are inexperienced consumers and tend to make decisions on impulse, Their marketing thugs are all over the demographics and will lay siege to whatever profits they can milk from their prey. You call that good business practice?

Edited May 15, 2013 by Zsavooz

[Shingara]

Does anyone else want to join me on the facepalm?

 

 

 

/facepalm

 

Sorry its taking me so long to see your posts i have to open them up from hidden, so ye show me where this game was making a monetry lose.

[Arkerus]

wow, using a business model to justify corruption is truly inane. This is a gaming company and typically attracts younger people, not your Wall Street types. It;s like Kellogs selling Sugar Frosted Flakes to kids and saying it's healthy for you. Don;t confuse EASham with real companies because they are listed, they are using you with false marketing and lies. They appeal to the young because they are inexperienced consumers and tend to make decisions on impulse, Their marketing thugs are all over the demographics and will lay siege to whatever profits they can milk from their prey. You call that good business practice?

 

Lol

 

Like its EA's fault the market is driving towards F2P and cash shops. Some day real life is going to be a cold hard kick in the rear to you guys.

[Sir-Coffee]

I'm going to disprove that entire waste of a post with one simple response:

 

If you took away the cartel market, would all the problems go away?

 

Try again please

 

Absolutely not. The amount of time it would take Bioware to add in all of the armors that people love so much on the CM would take months or even years.

 

You seem to have missed the point(Maybe you were angry, if so, I hear meditation works wonders). I was pointing out that the Cartel Market is good, as long as Bioware understands that milking subscribers and overpricing items is not popular.

 

The other point I was making is that I urge Bioware to continue so long as people keep forking over their money to them. Whatever works for them. I am merely explaining why they are milking subscribers, and yes, I am against the system, but I have to respond to one thing in your "Waste of a post"

 

"If you took away the cartel market"

 

Please specify where I stated that.

[Andryah]

This isn't about adapting, this is about Bioware "Optimizing their machine" and milking us until we're empty. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I am not asking Bioware to stop, and I can understand their actions. People will keep purchasing what they throw out, and that's the problem.

 

You cannot be "milked" beyond your williness to be so milked.

 

This is classice deflection of responsbilty to blame a company for offering you optional fluff content to consume by your choice. They offer it, but it's not forced on you. You make a choice to consume it. If you feel you have no control over this.. then you need to step away from the game because you are admitting you have an impulse control problem IMO.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Andryah

[Zsavooz]

Lol

 

Like its EA's fault the market is driving towards F2P and cash shops. Some day real life is going to be a cold hard kick in the rear to you guys.

 

you obviously are from the generation of f me in the b u t t. Good for you. Glad to see our progeny further eroding our civilization.

[Tim-ONeil]

Let's dissect this sentence.

1). I could have it, I just refuse to be a sheep and receive my milking.

2). I am willing to spend Cartel Coins on reasonably priced items.

 

Assuming that when you say you could have it is true then in the end then only you actually lose. You aren't teaching Bioware a lesson but you are robbing yourself of something you want on principle. Principle and a cup of coffee is still worth 99 cents. It's a consumer driven market on a macro level, not the individual level.

[DarthTHC]

Fact: If you don't like how Bioware is milking subscribers, then don't purchase things from the Cartel Market.

 

FACT: Just because you put the word "Fact" in front of something, that doesn't make it a fact. Especially when the thing you put the word in front of isn't even phrased as a fact.

 

FACT: But thanks for playing.

 

See?

[Shingara]

You cannot be "milked" beyond your williness to be so milked.

 

This is classice deflection of responsbilty to blame a company for offering you optional fluff content to consume by your choice. They offer it, but it's not forced on you. You make a choice to consume it. If you feel you have no control over this.. then you need to step away from the game because you are admitting you have an impulse control problem IMO.

 

The only deflection i see right now is you deflecting the flack that bioware rightly deserves.

 

Ill put this out to everyone defending, i shall chose one thing so not tobe swamped, give me one logical reason why the kiosk doesnt allow ingame currency for the same race barber shop option.

 

If you cannot come up with one then the answer is greed.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Shingara

[Smartcat]

I couldn't agree more, as long ppl keep buying the gambling, bioware will just sit back and enjoy. I was really really excited about the dye system and it is a big let down sadly.

[Sir-Coffee]

You cannot be "milked" beyond your williness to be so milked.

 

Agreed.

 

This is classice deflection of responsbilty to blame a company for offering you optional fluff content to consume by your choice. They offer it, but it's not forced on you. You make a choice to consume it. If you feel you have no control over this.. then you need to step away from the game because you are admitting you have an impulse control problem IMO.

 

I haven't purchased anything from the Cartel Market since it was introduced( I used my monthly grants). In no way am I deflecting this on Bioware. Businesses need to make money, and as long as people fork over the money, they are obligated to commence the milking. It's these people with impulse control problems that are causing our game to fail.

[Andryah]

Does anyone else want to join me on the facepalm?

 

 

 

/facepalm

 

Yeah, I will join you.

 

I love Shingara.. but he's got a hairball caught in his throat on this one IMO.

 

The reality is they made a mistake taking this game live as a subscription model in today's market in the first place. I think they clearly saw that (after the fact). Credit to them for coming to grips with it and shifting direction rather then just riding the game into a hard crash on the ground.

 

I stand by my opinion that no MMO can launch as a subscription only model in today's market and survive. It is what it is. The last one to really give it a go was Rift..and they were stubborn about it.. and now even they have thrown in the towel. WoW is riding it's installed base.. and keep on keeping on... but you will never see a pure sub game from Blizzard again either. The market had changed. You can blame whoever or whatever... but it's not just one studio or one MMO.. the market has changed.

[Sir-Coffee]

Assuming that when you say you could have it is true then in the end then only you actually lose. You aren't teaching Bioware a lesson but you are robbing yourself of something you want on principle. Principle and a cup of coffee is still worth 99 cents. It's a consumer driven market on a macro level, not the individual level.

 

How am I losing? I have extra money in my pocket.

 

Robbing myself of what? The only thing I would even want would be a KOTOR set of Revan. Nothing in the Cartel Market interests me. I am merely stating why they are milking subscribers and everyone else and how that impacts the future of this game.

[Shingara]

Yeah, I will join you.

 

I love Shingara.. but he's got a hairball caught in his throat on this one IMO.

 

The reality is they made a mistake taking this game live as a subscription model in today's market in the first place. I think they clearly saw that (after the fact). Credit to them for coming to grips with it and shifting direction rather then just riding the game into a hard crash on the ground.

 

I stand by my opinion that no MMO can launch as a subscription only model in today's market and survive. It is what it is. The last one to really give it a go was Rift..and they were stubborn about it.. and now even they have thrown in the towel. WoW is riding it's installed base.. and keep on keeping on... but you will never see a pure sub game from Blizzard again either. The market had changed. You can blame whoever or whatever... but it's not just one studio or one MMO.. the market has changed.

 

You do realise your joining him because he stated that the game was making a lose on subscriptions right ?

 

I mean if you can show me where they were making a lose of money when on a subs only i will join you in the /facepalm.

[Slicksteezin]

Absolutely not. The amount of time it would take Bioware to add in all of the armors that people love so much on the CM would take months or even years.

 

You seem to have missed the point(Maybe you were angry, if so, I hear meditation works wonders). I was pointing out that the Cartel Market is good, as long as Bioware understands that milking subscribers and overpricing items is not popular.

 

The other point I was making is that I urge Bioware to continue so long as people keep forking over their money to them. Whatever works for them. I am merely explaining why they are milking subscribers, and yes, I am against the system, but I have to respond to one thing in your "Waste of a post"

 

"If you took away the cartel market"

 

Please specify where I stated that.

 

No. You missed the point.

 

this thread reads "You people shouldn't blame Bioware, you should blame yourselves." You're post is entirely attributed to the cartel market and that it all comes down to the choice of the subscriber buying or not buying. My response was, if you took away the cartel market, would SWTOR's problems go away. In other words, I shouldn't be blaming myself for anything because the Cartel Market is just one of countless problems that stem from BIOWARE, and not the player base.

[Wodaz]

Rift is losing money and is now going f2p just like us....wont be long before WoW does the same to regain their loses!

[Sir-Coffee]

FACT: Just because you put the word "Fact" in front of something, that doesn't make it a fact. Especially when the thing you put the word in front of isn't even phrased as a fact.

 

FACT: But thanks for playing.

 

See?

 

So if nobody purchases a certain T-shirt, then the company will keep making it?

 

Same thing goes for the Cartel Market and Bioware:

 

So if nobody purchases these overpriced items and buys into these scams, will Bioware keep trying to gouge their customers?(Maybe, but it will be to a MUCH lesser degree).

 

See?

[Andryah]

I haven't purchased anything from the Cartel Market since it was introduced( I used my monthly grants). In no way am I deflecting this on Bioware. Businesses need to make money, and as long as people fork over the money, they are obligated to commence the milking. It's these people with impulse control problems that are causing our game to fail.

 

We disagree on the "fail" part. The game has been thriving since F2P. And the teeth gnashing and poopslinging in the forum after patch today is nothing unusual when players are presented with change. Nothing changed really... just people are a bit more worked up about the patch right now.. mostly because reality =/= their self focused expectations.

 

Even so.. Iv'e seen worse flare ups with the players than this.. and this too shall pass. Bioware will be watching their telemetry and seeing exactly what the players are doing and what they like and buy... and nothing in the forum that contradicts the actual data is going to mean diddly squat.

 

I'm more interested really in what next weeks rant_de_jour will be.. because the forum has about a 3-5 day attention span even on self declared "fail" by Bioware.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Andryah

[Arkerus]

Yeah, I will join you.

 

I love Shingara.. but he's got a hairball caught in his throat on this one IMO.

 

The reality is they made a mistake taking this game live as a subscription model in today's market in the first place. I think they clearly saw that (after the fact). Credit to them for coming to grips with it and shifting direction rather then just riding the game into a hard crash on the ground.

 

I stand by my opinion that no MMO can launch as a subscription only model in today's market and survive. It is what it is. The last one to really give it a go was Rift..and they were stubborn about it.. and now even they have thrown in the towel. WoW is riding it's installed base.. and keep on keeping on... but you will never see a pure sub game from Blizzard again either. The market had changed. You can blame whoever or whatever... but it's not just one studio or one MMO.. the market has changed.

 

I don't think he understands it has nothing to do with subs being profitable. It has everything to do with the game being MUCH more profitable as a cash shop with sub model-f2p hybrid.

[Zsavooz]

Yeah, I will join you.

 

I love Shingara.. but he's got a hairball caught in his throat on this one IMO.

 

The reality is they made a mistake taking this game live as a subscription model in today's market in the first place. I think they clearly saw that (after the fact). Credit to them for coming to grips with it and shifting direction rather then just riding the game into a hard crash on the ground.

 

I stand by my opinion that no MMO can launch as a subscription only model in today's market and survive. It is what it is. The last one to really give it a go was Rift..and they were stubborn about it.. and now even they have thrown in the towel. WoW is riding it's installed base.. and keep on keeping on... but you will never see a pure sub game from Blizzard again either. The market had changed. You can blame whoever or whatever... but it's not just one studio or one MMO.. the market has changed.

 

I disagree, Rift was just a terrible game. People will pay with subscriptions if they are good, so simple. The fact is, SWTOR wasn't that good and to survive they went F2p. That's the deal, man. A good game will keep a subscription model, period.

[DarthTHC]

Yeah, I will join you.

 

I love Shingara.. but he's got a hairball caught in his throat on this one IMO.

 

The reality is they made a mistake taking this game live as a subscription model in today's market in the first place. I think they clearly saw that (after the fact). Credit to them for coming to grips with it and shifting direction rather then just riding the game into a hard crash on the ground.

 

I stand by my opinion that no MMO can launch as a subscription only model in today's market and survive. It is what it is. The last one to really give it a go was Rift..and they were stubborn about it.. and now even they have thrown in the towel. WoW is riding it's installed base.. and keep on keeping on... but you will never see a pure sub game from Blizzard again either. The market had changed. You can blame whoever or whatever... but it's not just one studio or one MMO.. the market has changed.

 

I beg to differ. Their clear mistake was not putting enough in it at release to be worth a subscription, which was further exacerbated by failing to make it easy enough to add content quickly enough.

 

The thing they came to grips with was that they were losing subscriptions at a pace that they'd soon be unprofitable and they looked at their tools and realized there was no way they could produce enough content quickly enough to reverse the losses. At that point, they had only two choices: find a different revenue model or give up.

 

They didn't pick the revenue model because it's an awesome one. They picked it because it was the only thing they could do given where they were at.

 

Now... that makes things not quite so clear, doesn't it?

 

It's interesting that Rift is going to a market-based approach too. But that's not necessarily an indictment of the subscription model. Rift leaves much to be desired, just as this game did in Q1 2012, and probably still does for a lot of the "hardcore" players who don't mind paying a subscription if the content can come close to keeping pace with them.

[Shingara]

I don't think he understands it has nothing to do with subs being profitable. It has everything to do with the game being MUCH more profitable as a cash shop with sub model-f2p hybrid.

 

And you fail to see that those figures are from before today so even with double profits this is plain and simple greed. Not only has this devalued subscription but it insults subscribers by overcharging and charging cc for things that should have ingame currency use.

 

We have moved away from ingame currency credit sinks to cartel coin credit sinks.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Shingara

[Sir-Coffee]

No. You missed the point.

 

this thread reads "You people shouldn't blame Bioware, you should blame yourselves." You're post is entirely attributed to the cartel market and that it all comes down to the choice of the subscriber buying or not buying. My response was, if you took away the cartel market, would SWTOR's problems go away. In other words, I shouldn't be blaming myself for anything because the Cartel Market is just one of countless problems that stem from BIOWARE, and not the player base.

 

Of course not, but this isn't about SW:TOR(non CC RL money) problems. This is about price gouging AND the way that this impacts future content.

 

Look at patch 2.1 and tell me it is not a scam. You would be kidding yourself.

 

The bug fixes, engine problems, pvp problems, pve, space missions is all Bioware/EAs fault. The price gouging is the fault of the people who give Bioware that overpriced money.

 

It's very easy to understand.

 

People don't buy overpriced money or buy into these scams = Bioware listens to customers(Or fails miserably)

Edited May 15, 2013 by SithEBM

[CosmicKat]

Stop playing semantics. They redeveloped a good portion of the income generating portion as well as the entire makeb expansion. The point is...they did what they needed to do to make the product generate income.

 

This is the market and this is how it works.

 

Actually, this is the back-up plan for failed products.

 

There is no way in a million years this game would have ever been green-lighted had it been known it would go F2P within a year.

[Zsavooz]

And you fail to see that those figures are from before today so even with double profits this is plain and simple greed.

 

BS! I'm in a business that lives on monthly subscriptions. We base our entire budget on those subscriptions. I would rather have a "known" monthly income stream than an unknown pay to play model. I can't budget on an unknown;. F2P is a desperation move, the last gasp of a dying entity.