Shadow 2.0 PVE dps suck?

[seektravota]

I heard complains from my shadow friends who said they can't pull equally competitive DPS in raids like the other classes and some of them just stopped raiding. Is this true?

[Vaerah]

I heard complains from my shadow friends who said they can't pull equally competitive DPS in raids like the other classes and some of them just stopped raiding. Is this true?

 

It's a long time shadow DPS is the lowest. Only way to earn a spot in a raid for me is to (off)tank. Even as main tank for what I read, we are now sub par.

[a-n-i-k-i]

We're definitively not a bad PvE dps class.

If a shadow is not allowed to come as a dps, it's either ignorance (from the guild) or a L2P issue (I hate these words...).

The actual HL PvE content is not a problem for a dps shadow.

I hope that they're not making decision based on dummy parses between classes, the PTS doubt is almost gone

 

p.s : I'm not saying we're OP or that it's easy.

Edited May 13, 2013 by a-n-i-k-i

[Whojoo]

Sustained damage is not the best but I don't care. The game is about having fun and this is (in my oppinion) one of the more entertaining dps classes to play.

Though the best way to deal with it is having a friendly guild with people who don't care if you are a dps or tank.

But if people cry, just turn them off. This usually leaves some confusion

[seektravota]

We're definitively not a bad PvE dps class.

If a shadow is not allowed to come as a dps, it's either ignorance (from the guild) or a L2P issue (I hate these words...).

The actual HL PvE content is not a problem for a dps shadow.

I hope that they're not making decision based on dummy parses between classes, the PTS doubt is almost gone

 

p.s : I'm not saying we're OP or that it's easy.

 

Do you have parsing statistics for shadows? I heard lots of complaints from my shadow friends about not being able to parse as high as the other classes.

[Heezdedjim]

I heard complains from my shadow friends who said they can't pull equally competitive DPS in raids like the other classes and some of them just stopped raiding. Is this true?

There is a long thread in this same forum where balance shadows explain why they are universally disgusted with the changes to their spec. Nobody has appeared in that thread to say that the spec is anything but shedloads worse than it was. Pre-2.0, Balance was the only viable spec for PvE DPS Shadow in raids, and it was still at the bottom of the barrel. Apparently the fix for that was to knock the bottom out of the barrel.

 

Infil has more toys to play with in PvP, but its damage did not get any better, it's still a burst spec (which is useless for 90% of endgame raid fights), and it's still saddled with Bioware's "it's a lone wolf spec, so it doesn't need utility" theology that has kept it consistently crippled and unloved in group play.

 

It's all good though. They made up for ruining the only good DPS spec we had by making our tank spec an even squishier and spikier train wreck for healers to keep alive.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Heezdedjim

[a-n-i-k-i]

Do you have parsing statistics for shadows? I heard lots of complaints from my shadow friends about not being able to parse as high as the other classes.

Real exhaustive statistics, no of course I don't have

But what is the gap you're talking about ? 50, 100, 200, 300dps or more ?

I was just saying that the actual gap is not a valid reason to stop playing a dps shadow.

For some bosses we can have an equal dps, and for the rest we're a bit lower but we're not obsolete.

 

Now if your friends want an easy and overpowered dps class and they don't like to be sometimes a bit behind (200dps) then I'll say that it's nothing new, it's about time to realise that (since 1.2).

 

To not play a dps shadow is a player choice not a dps potential issue.

Look at the statistics of Torparse, shadows/assassins are not out. (Beware, some assassins parses are in fact sorcerer parses)

 

 

There is a long thread in this same forum where balance shadows explain why they are universally disgusted with the changes to their spec.

 

Yeah now the balance spec is boring without the backstab, but that wasn't the subject.

Edited May 13, 2013 by a-n-i-k-i

[leijae]

I heard complains from my shadow friends who said they can't pull equally competitive DPS in raids like the other classes and some of them just stopped raiding. Is this true?

 

Compare and make your own decision. I'd click "8 HM/NM" for a better comparison.

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Scum+and+Villainy/Dread+Master+Styrak?ac=Jedi+Shadow

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Scum+and+Villainy/Dread+Master+Styrak?ac=Jedi+Sentinel

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Scum+and+Villainy/Dread+Master+Styrak?ac=Gunslinger

Edited May 13, 2013 by leijae

[Heezdedjim]

Compare and make your own decision. I'd click "8 HM/NM" for a better comparison.

The hilarious part: The #1 top ranked player in the Shadow AC is on par with the top ranked Gunslinger, but it's like walking off a cliff after that. The #10 ranked Sentinels and Gunslingers are ahead of all but the top two or three Shadows, and by the time you get to the #8-10 Shadows, they're doing less than half the DPS of the bottom of the top 10 in the other classes.

 

So, on a perfect run, if you're the number 1 Shadow in the game, you might barely draw even with the best there is in the second best DPS class in the game. Any other Shadow, on any other day, is just half a toon compared to any random Gunslinger or Sentinel. And people wonder why nobody will take a DPS Shadow on anything other than a charity run.

[Elyx]

The hilarious part: The #1 top ranked player in the Shadow AC is on par with the top ranked Gunslinger, but it's like walking off a cliff after that. The #10 ranked Sentinels and Gunslingers are ahead of all but the top two or three Shadows, and by the time you get to the #8-10 Shadows, they're doing less than half the DPS of the bottom of the top 10 in the other classes.

 

So, on a perfect run, if you're the number 1 Shadow in the game, you might barely draw even with the best there is in the second best DPS class in the game. Any other Shadow, on any other day, is just half a toon compared to any random Gunslinger or Sentinel. And people wonder why nobody will take a DPS Shadow on anything other than a charity run.

 

So....you're saying that because people can't learn to play their class that the class is broke? am I missing something here? seems like it's a l2p issue more then anything else. reminds me of the Jugg/Guard issue prior to 2.0. people thought their DPS sucked until players started posting crazy numbers...then everyone was asking how they did it.

 

Although, on a flip note...based on the data Bio has given us about the apparent huge influence raid buffs have on the AC, that may be a variable you have to take into account with the numbers. As well as gearing...we'd probably want to seriously start breaking down the differences in those fights to know for sure. And in your defense, I to agree that if a class is too hard for people to get DPS out of, then something needs to be simplified. which is FUNNY cause the whole argument about the balance changes was that it simplified the spec too much.

 

But back to the original point....If someone did it, it can be done. perhaps the others haven't sharpened their skill use yet? or are dealing with gearing issues because they haven't figure out the best gear/skill combinations? I dunno...but just because 95% of the population hasn't hit those numbers yet doesn't mean its the class' fault. Heck, the guy kept up with an AC that is know to be top of the field. if anything, that should tell you about the AC's ultimate potential.

 

And herein lies the issue. IF the classes potential is that high NOW, what will the potential be if they raise the DPS threshold? then everyone will roll a Balance/madness spec because the top players are outperforming every other class by 10% (or whatever). do you want that?

 

I actually find that sort of ironically humorous. in spite of people griping about the "simplified rotation" based on those numbers, it doesn't look like it's as simple as they thought....

 

And while were at it, perhaps instead of griping about an AC being broke (when it may not be), perhaps we should get some of those players posting the big numbers in these threads so we can see how they do the song and dance routing, and find out if it's really something within our grasp (like gearing or skill rotations), or if the environmental variables have too much of an impact on our damage (which I think may be one of the larger underlying issues, all things aside)

Edited May 13, 2013 by Elyx

[a-n-i-k-i]

It's a vicious circle, there are fewer "good" fight parses for shadows because they're just less played on HL PvE, so if someone take his decision (to play shadow or not) based on that, it won't change anything.

 

But the Dread Master Styrak HM fight isn't the best example because the top 50 is a bit bugged (other bosses too), some fights are not real downs (include the 2475 shadow parse, dead at enrage), so this week we can say that there was no shadow on the TOP 50 (for a matter of ~40dps ), that's a detail but it's the truth

It will change each week, we'll see when everybody is BiS stuffed if shadows are always here (I think for some bosses, yes).

 

However if we look at all boss fights, we can see that shadow is not having real dps problem, more a fun problem with balance and it's important indeed !

[Nategray]

So....you're saying that because people can't learn to play their class that the class is broke? am I missing something here? seems like it's a l2p issue more then anything else. reminds me of the Jugg/Guard issue prior to 2.0. people thought their DPS sucked until players started posting crazy numbers...then everyone was asking how they did it.

 

Although, on a flip note...based on the data Bio has given us about the apparent huge influence raid buffs have on the AC, that may be a variable you have to take into account with the numbers. As well as gearing...we'd probably want to seriously start breaking down the differences in those fights to know for sure. And in your defense, I to agree that if a class is too hard for people to get DPS out of, then something needs to be simplified. which is FUNNY cause the whole argument about the balance changes was that it simplified the spec too much.

 

But back to the original point....If someone did it, it can be done. perhaps the others haven't sharpened their skill use yet? or are dealing with gearing issues because they haven't figure out the best gear/skill combinations? I dunno...but just because 95% of the population hasn't hit those numbers yet doesn't mean its the class' fault. Heck, the guy kept up with an AC that is know to be top of the field. if anything, that should tell you about the AC's ultimate potential.

 

And herein lies the issue. IF the classes potential is that high NOW, what will the potential be if they raise the DPS threshold? then everyone will roll a Balance/madness spec because the top players are outperforming every other class by 10% (or whatever). do you want that?

 

I actually find that sort of ironically humorous. in spite of people griping about the "simplified rotation" based on those numbers, it doesn't look like it's as simple as they thought....

 

And while were at it, perhaps instead of griping about an AC being broke (when it may not be), perhaps we should get some of those players posting the big numbers in these threads so we can see how they do the song and dance routing, and find out if it's really something within our grasp (like gearing or skill rotations), or if the environmental variables have too much of an impact on our damage (which I think may be one of the larger underlying issues, all things aside)

 

Maybe I am missing something but these links don't really make your argument that shadow dps is comparable and really disprove it..

After the first 5 which are close the remainder all fall off and if you look at the time of the parses the shadows in order to even keep up in the top 5 have more parse time.

[mmerry]

Maybe I am missing something but these links don't really make your argument that shadow dps is comparable and really disprove it..

After the first 5 which are close the remainder all fall off and if you look at the time of the parses the shadows in order to even keep up in the top 5 have more parse time.

 

Shadows #8 through the bottom on Styrak are tanks..

[Elyx]

Maybe I am missing something but these links don't really make your argument that shadow dps is comparable and really disprove it..

After the first 5 which are close the remainder all fall off and if you look at the time of the parses the shadows in order to even keep up in the top 5 have more parse time.

 

i think what it really does is point to a disparity, and possibly a threshold with the class. those who can make the threshold (whether it be gear, or skill, or timing with environmental variables), get great DPS. those who cannot meet that threshold don't (this is aside from build, as attested to the tank specs).

 

My original point was that the DPS is doable, based on the current parses. The real question is how do we (a.k.a. your average player) get that DPS out of the spec? If you need to time everything perfectly, and line up the "part buffs" perfectly, then the spec in all actuality may be worse off then it was before. reason being that relying on party buffs is not a variable under our control. what if there are one or two missing? our DPS is then dependent on another class, which is a bad way to set DPS standards.

 

If it's a personal skill issue, then the question is "How high is the skill threshold?" which would be hilarious considering the biggest grip people have now is that the spec is "too boring now". which would not be the case if there's a new, more difficult learning curve involved.

 

But either way, I can't see how you can point to a shadow that keeps up with a gunslinger and then tell me that the class can't put out Good DPS...that simply isn't true. it's a question of how difficult it is to GET that DPS. Which at this point may or may not be a class issue. at this gear level, with ignorant Raid leaders rejecting them because they think rumors are truth...its tough to say.

[Vaerah]

But either way, I can't see how you can point to a shadow that keeps up with a gunslinger and then tell me that the class can't put out Good DPS...that simply isn't true. it's a question of how difficult it is to GET that DPS. Which at this point may or may not be a class issue. at this gear level, with ignorant Raid leaders rejecting them because they think rumors are truth...its tough to say.

 

There'd not be the first raid (nor in the first MMO) where an officer / raid leader / guild leader creates "a raid around him", I have made and joined such raid several times. Basically an "important guy" gets preference treatment, all the best buffs for his class, best consummables and the raid is structured to make him do the best of his class. This usually results in some 20-30% better performance compared to a raid where that guy would be "just one of many".

 

Is such performance a fair assessment of a whole class viability? Not really. All should be tested either by a min maxed around him raid or all as a "average raider" with no special circumstances.

If *one* is an outlier, first he has no statistical value (outliers are usually discarded in statistics) then we have to know the circumstances that made him achieve that. "L2P" is required just to be in those top ranks, required but as only prerequisite it's not enough to also be at the top of the top.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Vaerah

[Assillius]

To not play a dps shadow is a player choice not a dps potential issue.

Look at the statistics of Torparse, shadows/assassins are not out. (Beware, some assassins parses are in fact sorcerer parses)

 

 

 

 

Yeah now the balance spec is boring without the backstab, but that wasn't the subject.

 

so u want to say that shadow/sin can do 2700+? coz thats what sage/sorc do...

http://www.torparse.com/a/222950/time/1368305582/1368305991/0/Overview

[Mordeguy]

It's still doable, just not easy.

 

The problem isn't that you CAN'T do good damage it's that you have little room for mistakes, need optimized gear and hope it's a shadow friendly fight. You can still keep up with other classes if you work hard enough.

 

Whether or not you consider it fair how much tougher it is to dps on a shadow vs some other classes is another question and certainly fair to bring up.

 

BTW I cringe whenever I see someone citing dummy dps. It's pointless really. They are good for practicing rotations and such but what you see on a dummy doesn't always (rarely does) translate to actual fighting.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Mordeguy

[a-n-i-k-i]

so u want to say that shadow/sin can do 2700+? coz thats what sage/sorc do...

http://www.torparse.com/a/222950/time/1368305582/1368305991/0/Overview

No I don't want to say that

I was just saying that we're not out, in some fights we can do almost the same dps.

But the fact that there are not enough dps shadow is not helping to judge the real gap between us and other classes.

If you compare the best shadow parses with marauder or sorcerer when we are fewer players, you assume that the best parses are already made by the best shadow players and that they won't be beaten even if everyone is rerolling a shadow.

I was worried since the PTS about our dps, based on dummy parse, today I'm less worried, I see that we're good enough to clean actual content (and I think next NiM too), that's all.

The arguments seen in the dev interview (about us) were for me total nonsense, but the result is almost here

 

There'd not be the first raid (nor in the first MMO) where an officer / raid leader / guild leader creates "a raid around him", I have made and joined such raid several times. Basically an "important guy" gets preference treatment, all the best buffs for his class, best consummables and the raid is structured to make him do the best of his class.

 

I partly agree with you, but each raid is unique, the synergy between classes and players is not always equitable across groups, guilds and servers, and I hope that most of TOP50 knows that.

It's impossible to say who is the best player but we can recognize a good parse without forgetting that it's a synergy matter and that the player wasn't alone.

Sometimes good synergy happens without any particular "raid around him".

And I can assure you that they're not all VIPs on Torparse, lol.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Compare and make your own decision. I'd click "8 HM/NM" for a better comparison.

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Scum+and+Villainy/Dread+Master+Styrak?ac=Jedi+Shadow

Scum and Villainy - Dread Master Styrak:

#6 shadow is the first Balance Shadow in SM

he/ she is the #4 shadow in HM as well

with double strike dealing twice the Damage of the next best attack...

no Balance shadow at all between #1 and #50 SM

 

only one shadow between #1 and #50 HM (infiltration)

 

oh nice 16HM has one shadow as well, and a balance one I think.

you can go home people now everything is fine. (for Scum and Villainy - Dread Master Styrak at least)

(except double strike spam being Boring as Hell perhaps but who cares about fun anyway)

 

balance shadows rise and fall with the 4 piece Set-bonus its easily traced back to the crit chance of DS in the Logs.

50% bonus surge on DS is crazy.

so I'd say once the equipment is top end you won't have to whine all that much about DPS

...it's a pity from my perspective

Edited May 15, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Assillius]

Shadow is the lowest single target and aoe dps class in game, infiltration does even less, unless i will see parse of shadow at 2700+ level i will keep saying how ****** it is. Since other classes 72 full geared are doing 2800+

[Majspuffen]

Are people saying the shadow class is more difficult now than what it was before 1.7?

 

Sillyness.

 

In terms of the Balance spec, Bioware sought to make it easier. And anyone who played prior to 2.0 will know that the spec was more complex back then. It was just a rewarding complexity, that allowed us to net those neat numbers.

 

They dumbed down the game, removing fundamental things such as Sharpened Mind (the way we used to regen force through Force Suppression marks) and Shadow Strike... and in doing so they gimped our damage. It is very hard not to play Balance right, as it is right now.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Are people saying the shadow class is more difficult now than what it was before 1.7?

who said anything like that?

my dictionary says "difficult" means the exact opposite of Current balance.

 

Edit: I agree completely with you btw don't miss understand me.

But I really haven't found someone who said balance is difficult.

Edited May 16, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[seektravota]

So....you're saying that because people can't learn to play their class that the class is broke? am I missing something here? seems like it's a l2p issue more then anything else. reminds me of the Jugg/Guard issue prior to 2.0. people thought their DPS sucked until players started posting crazy numbers...then everyone was asking how they did it.

 

Although, on a flip note...based on the data Bio has given us about the apparent huge influence raid buffs have on the AC, that may be a variable you have to take into account with the numbers. As well as gearing...we'd probably want to seriously start breaking down the differences in those fights to know for sure. And in your defense, I to agree that if a class is too hard for people to get DPS out of, then something needs to be simplified. which is FUNNY cause the whole argument about the balance changes was that it simplified the spec too much.

 

But back to the original point....If someone did it, it can be done. perhaps the others haven't sharpened their skill use yet? or are dealing with gearing issues because they haven't figure out the best gear/skill combinations? I dunno...but just because 95% of the population hasn't hit those numbers yet doesn't mean its the class' fault. Heck, the guy kept up with an AC that is know to be top of the field. if anything, that should tell you about the AC's ultimate potential.

 

And herein lies the issue. IF the classes potential is that high NOW, what will the potential be if they raise the DPS threshold? then everyone will roll a Balance/madness spec because the top players are outperforming every other class by 10% (or whatever). do you want that?

 

I actually find that sort of ironically humorous. in spite of people griping about the "simplified rotation" based on those numbers, it doesn't look like it's as simple as they thought....

 

And while were at it, perhaps instead of griping about an AC being broke (when it may not be), perhaps we should get some of those players posting the big numbers in these threads so we can see how they do the song and dance routing, and find out if it's really something within our grasp (like gearing or skill rotations), or if the environmental variables have too much of an impact on our damage (which I think may be one of the larger underlying issues, all things aside)

 

It's NOT a L2P issue. Just look at the torparse statistics, shadow/assassins are 400-500 dps behind. Many of my shadow friends quit playing dps shadows for raid because of that.