Viability of Pyro PT

[Sulcras]

I was reading threads on this forum and I see that many guys say that Powertech is not viable. I'd like to know if that's true. I made my PT few days ago and I'd like to go pyro route. After seeing so many threads about nerfed PT I'm little concerned.

[UncleOst]

...what is this "viable" word I keep seeing, like a switch or something. A handfull of people say yay or nay , then a class becomes either " viable or not viable".

 

Honestly? I'm still acquiring a full set of partisan pvp gear for my lil PT. I'd like to see what good gear will yield as far as dps goes. I think PT's are a bit more gear reliant more than ever but. I don't know what to say...sometimes I kick arse, sometimes I get my arse kicked. There are many different attacks with a powertech. Having said that, the beauty of this or any class becomes on how You use them....that's it.

 

If you want to strut around and light other players on fire, I'd highly recommend this class.

[Sardonyyx]

It's not that they suck. They just don't have anything good about them anymore. Pre 2.0 we were the burst kings, and Rail Shot did massive damage, and refreshed our hard hitting cylinder (1500-1700 on a crier on public test server). Now they took away 15% armor penetration on Rail shot and nerfed the damage to Combustible gas Cylinder.

 

Depending on what you want to do with the class it's really the same answer, they have no utility, crappy defensive coolodowns, and they don't do favorable damage anymore. Is the class worthless? No, but when i play a class that gets outshined constantly, I'm going to play something else. My main is a Pyro PT, and he's been kinda sitting on the shelf because my sniper kicks his *** in dps output.

[Brunner_Venda]

Here's the deal.

 

When they nerf smash,do something about the stupid chain-stunning, or the ridiculous number of slows, I'll play pyro. Pyro does more burst, which kills people. You can't argue with that.

 

Until then, it's AP for me. You take 30% less when stunned by stun monkeys, or smashed by smash monkeys. Your energy rebounder is up more often then not, and your hydraulic overrides last longer and run faster.

 

Basically, AP is a counter to all of the really crap parts of the sewer that is Bioware pvp.

[Sulcras]

Thank you for your replies. I wanted to know if it's a problem with "I died on pvp 10 times in a row - this class is so ******" or "PT is nerfed so much that anything can kill them". And all your opinions gave me the answer.

Based on what I've read here and in other threads I think that the main issue is that PT used to be stronger. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with viability of the class. Or at least I don't see a problem.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Sulcras

[Brunner_Venda]

Just try AP spec for a week .

 

You die less, Hell, the energy rebounder 6 second proc alone is worth at least a shot.

 

Dying less means you spend more time on DPS and killing than sitting in the med center waiting behind the shield.

 

It bears repeating that AP takes the edge off of the worst and most unbalanced parts of PVP.

[FeralPug]

Here's the deal.

 

[...snip...]

 

Basically, AP is a counter to all of the really crap parts of the sewer that is Bioware pvp.

 

This sentiment is 100% right, although I really enjoy the game so I won't back up the "sewer" part.

 

Advanced Prototype mitigates all the things that are complained about the most: stuns and massive AOE damage. For AP, every time you are stunned you are buffed. A good AP will very rarely break stuns, because being stunned is a huge advantage for the spec.

 

This isn't to say that Pyro is not "viable". There are a couple pyros on my server who are doing well with the class. Many of the usual pyros abandoned it altogether when 2.0 dropped. There are few powertechs left in the WZ's now, at least on my server. The few of us who are left are putting up good numbers, and helping to win games.

 

I would say that Pyro is best when played with support. It's fragile, but still can output. If you're solo-queuing, or you are a recognized character on the PVP field that pulls a lot of focus, AP is king due to it's durability.

 

Tank spec is sweet for PVP right now too. Oil slick is ridiculously fun to use, and borderline OP in the hands of a good player. It's also the only spec in the game that has a leap and a pull. This is huge for HB.

 

I would say all of our specs are "viable". We're not OP anymore, and there are some annoying issues in the AP tree, but it's a fun class that's full of usefulness on a good team.

Edited May 7, 2013 by FeralPug

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Pyro PT is terrible in terms of just about everything. AP is a bit better but when it all comes down to it. Shield Spec is utter carnage in PvP. It's main attack has a slow (Flame Spin) It gets 2 free Flame Spins from its leap, Rocket Punch is rarely down and gives an Ion Cell DoT, Heat Blast is incredibly awesome in terms of damage AND keeping Heat down, and Rail Shot is rarely not able to be used.

[Sulcras]

Well.. if you put it like this - I may try AP. Maybe I'll like it more.

[Sardonyyx]

Shield spec is not as good as you guys keep saying, it's still the weakest tank. AP is better for pvp now, but the whole point is that if you can play a class that's better in terms of utility and damage, why continue to play the PT? I get it if you think it's fun, but trust me you'll have more fun cracking skulls on a marauder or sniper.

Its a weak class currently, and until they fix it, it will not be popular, same thing happened with sorc dps, operative dps, and merc dps. Just a cycle, they'll fix it soon. I hope.

[mulzii]

i think you have to put the status of PT in perspective. The natural PT-killers are snipers and sorcs (especially madness). With 2.0, WZs are comprised of at least 5+ sages/sorcs/snipers/slingers per team, if not more. With the their cc's and their added dmg/range/skills to get out of PT range, its just not all that fun, especially that the PT burst cannot burn them down at all.

 

Sure, i'll log in my PT, and play 10 matches, as i like the playstyle (not the dmg though). Three of those matches will have 1 sorc, maybe only 1 sniper, 1 or no healers and i'll feel like i'm useful and competitive, and be rocking the objectives/scoreboard thinking life for the PT is great. Then the other 7 matches come along, with its 3 sages/sorcs, 3 snipers and a rest sins, and its just the most frustrating thing to ever play competitively. Especially when they hit with 15k-19k+ with a quick ambush+ft+takedown, or a sorc hitting you 20+m out with 2k FL each tick that also snares you to every hoping of reaching you. You cannot grabble the sniper, but if you grab the sorc, they just either kb, stun, whatever and force speed away and laugh at you while you die from dots. If you even get these turkeys whittled down to 25% or so, they can completely heal up instantly with medpac+self heal and protect with their low-cooldown bubble.

 

Don't get me wrong, i have a sorc, and don't think they are OP. But in context of my PT, i use to have the burst to deal with their dots/excapability/etc. Now i just get dotted/snared to hell, tickling them with a lame RS/FB with no hope of winning unless i catch them with grabble and their cc's on cd.

 

Then i jump on my dep sin/vengence jugg, and compare what they can do, compared to what the PT can, and thats when my PT meets the dusty shelf. Only my concealment OP feels the inadequacies of the PT, and she holds a respectful spot on the dusty shelf right next to the PT atm. dusted off when i'm bored, but no real value from them atm.

[Sardonyyx]

I'm glad you agree. Yeah I love both my Conc Op and pyro PT as well, but my Engi sniper is my main now. Because of fart bombs and ridiculous burst. I consistently top my raid parse with him too, just like my pyro used to. ='(

[Ottoattack]

I usually look into dps classes in PvP based on five criteria. I did not come up with the criteria, I picked them up from another player, but I think they are completely valid. The criteria are: Burst damage, sustained damage, survivability, mobility while fighting and utility. Burst damage, sustained damage, survivability are the most important criteria for a dps class so they are given a score out of 10. Mobility and utility are given a score out of five, since they are secondary.

 

Pyro Tech 2.0:

Burst damage: 6/10.

sustained damage: 7/10

survivability: 3/10

Mobility: 5/5

Utility: 4/5

Total: 25/40.

 

Pyro Tech 1.7:

Burst damage: 10/10.

sustained damage: 9/10

survivability: 3/10

Mobility: 4.5/5

Utility: 4/5

Total: 30.5/40.

 

Rage Marauder 2.0:

Burst damage: 9/10.

sustained damage: 9/10

survivability: 10/10

Mobility: 4/5

Utility: 4/5

Total: 36/40.

 

Carnage Marauder 2.0:

Burst damage: 10/10.

sustained damage: 8/10

survivability: 9/10

Mobility: 4/5

Utility: 5/5

Total: 36/40.

 

Deception Sin 2.0:

Burst damage: 10/10.

sustained damage: 6/10

survivability: 9/10

Mobility: 5/5

Utility: 4/5

Total: 34/40.

 

I am not as knowledgeable about other classes to give same type of analysis, however, Rage Jugg will score same as rage maurder (within 1 point up or down). Snipers all trees will score in the early/mid 30s out of 40.

 

Pyro tech ranked low on all three main criteria compared to other dps classes. Before expansion pyro ranked highest in terms of output (sustained and burst), with low survivability.

 

I do not know AP very well. I know it has better survivability, which might improve it to 5/10, but burst and sustained damage will be around the same range.

 

Pyro tech lost 5.5 points or 14% of the class power in PvP, and 6 points in damage output, which is about 30% damage output in PvP.

 

I understand that these numbers are estimates and subjective, but they are within 5% + or - range from reality.

 

Conclusion: unless you really enjoy the class I advice you to switch. You are not best in performance in PvP and its even worse in PvE, because the utility will drop from 4/5 to 2/5, since taunts as dps will not be used. Also, PvE is highly sustained damage based (survivability is not important and burst not as valuable), and compared to sniper or marauder you will be over shadowed.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Sardonyyx]

Ok your analysis is strange. And you clearly don't Raid, also snipers are on par with marauders for damage as well, raiding is just as much about burst as pvp is. Bursting down adds, or a burn phase on a boss.

[Ottoattack]

My post said all the way in the beginning its PvP. Never the less, in PvE all PT dps aspects fall behind in output and utility compared to most other classes.

[Macroeconomics]

I was reading threads on this forum and I see that many guys say that Powertech is not viable. I'd like to know if that's true.

 

It all depends on how you define "viable". Also, keep in mind that although the term "viable" ought to have a fixed meaning, or fixed hurdle rate of performance, in fact once we introduce player skill as a variable, that fixed metric goes out the window. So the peanut gallery may conclude that PT Pyro is "viable" because player A regularly scores as the top damage outputter in warzones. But what they aren't seeing is that Player B, C, D, etc. scored low and stopped playing.

[Brunner_Venda]

Here's a question: How are pyros doing one on one versus other classes? It's important, especially when taking down a ball carrier or solo guarding a node.

 

I run AP. Yesterday, while guarding, I think I lost one out of maybe eight one on one fights against randoms trying to take our artillery. That includes stealthers, guardians, sents, and vanguard DPS. The guardian finally got me on his second try, but after I died help finally showed up.

 

I think 'viable' should be based on whether you can achieve objectives (run with the ball, solo guard a node, peel aggro from the healer). I just don't think pyro should be considered viable, because I couldn't do any of these things with that spec. Pyro is just bad, and ultimately a handicap for the whole team. When a pyro queues for pvp with me, I groan, because I know we are going to lose. It's a DPS class with no burst, that requires you to be in melee range, but you can't survive there without rebounder or rebraced armor. You are stunned and rooted more because hydraulic doesn't last as long, so you can't get where you need to. Your damage depends on DOTS that just get cleared by any decent healer.

 

TLDR; Pyro has no PVP viability. Bioware broke it. Respec AP or Shield, just stop queuing with a terrible class. I'm as mad about it as you are, but the glory days are gone.

[Chickensevil]

My post said all the way in the beginning its PvP. Never the less, in PvE all PT dps aspects fall behind in output and utility compared to most other classes.

 

Yes but you must consider sustained in terms of pve means a different amount of time than PvP. No fight in PVP is gonna last long than 1 maybe 2 minutes... if it does I dare say you are doing it wrong. So burst means your damage over say 3 or 4 globals... sustained would be more along the lines of 30 seconds at the most to rate you sustained damage.

 

On the contrary PVE sustained means 5 minutes or more. Which is why any time you are trying to get a baseline of yourdamage against a target dummy you are told to hit it for at least 5 minutes. Even burst time is gonna likely be longer ccomparatively to be more like 10 seconds plus...

 

I say that to tell you, this changes the dynamic by which you are trying to rate a class in PVE. Finally, I think you almost need another category for mobile DPs, which should likely be rated differently than mobility. Your ability to DPs on the move changes your usefulness to be greater than a sniper in this instance... which is why target dummy DPs doesn't mean anything. If you looked at that op pre 2.0 was horrid, unfortunately this mistake lead many people to not learn how to play them properly and thus they appeared horrid. In reality they were on par with being number one in many boss fights if played correctly.

 

I say that to say, pryo is still very capable in PVE. I am still not optimised correctly and am pulling tops DPS in my guild in many fights, or at least within 50 DPs of the top on all the rest. (Except thrasher cause I am dealing with adds the entire time... interestingly we have another pyro who is still pulling number one here). I don't care if you can pull 2800 DPs on a target dummy, if that only translates into 1800 in a real fight then your class is just not so great. Single target on a dummy I can hit around 2200, in a real fight with debuffs from other players and added damage from AOEs I can actually still hit those numbers even though I have to move... a lot... prime example, the first two bosses in SAV. Tons of movement in these fights, and for a class with **** mobility I still come out way ahead because I flow very well around the map with constant DPS.

[Aetrus]

Here's a question: How are pyros doing one on one versus other classes? It's important, especially when taking down a ball carrier or solo guarding a node.

 

Everything you said in this post and your previous is really smart. Pyros can really only 1v1 Mercs and win (interrupts ftw.) They get wrecked by Jugs, Maras, Snipers, Sorcs, whatever.

 

What you said previously about AP being best for solo queuing definitely echos my sentiments. My team hasn't done rateds in 2.0, and I've been soloing a lot. So recently I switched to AP because it has so much more survivability. I feel like when shoulder cannon ammo is loaded, AP deals about the same burst as Pyro. When I don't have shoulder cannon up, I'm not killing anything. Which sucks, but I'm also not taking 400k dmg and dying 8+ times a game either. AP is also a vastly superior dueling spec. I would say it's one of the best in the game in that regard.

[Brunner_Venda]

A lot of your AP damage comes from PFT.

 

Hit explosive fuel, build the three stack with immolate and FB, then hit the enemy healer when he's casting.

 

The slow is huge in a fight, and the damage holds up until rail and immolate are off CD again.

[Omophorus]

A lot of your AP damage comes from PFT.

 

Hit explosive fuel, build the three stack with immolate and FB, then hit the enemy healer when he's casting.

 

The slow is huge in a fight, and the damage holds up until rail and immolate are off CD again.

 

I do feel as though AP is in a better place for PVP than Pyro is, by a long shot, but this has a pretty major issue in it.

 

Any class whose most core DPS skill is a channel is at a great disadvantage, especially if they're more-or-less a melee.

 

No other spec suffers as badly in this regard as AP. Even Carnage Marauder, which drives a large amount of damage from a Gore'd Ravage, can easily replace the Ravage with other hard-hitting skills if they feel an interrupt is likely (since it's really Gore and not Ravage that's the main DPS skill, even though Gore itself doesn't hit very hard).

[Hizoka]

It's not that they suck. They just don't have anything good about them anymore. Pre 2.0 we were the burst kings, and Rail Shot did massive damage, and refreshed our hard hitting cylinder (1500-1700 on a crier on public test server). Now they took away 15% armor penetration on Rail shot and nerfed the damage to Combustible gas Cylinder.

 

Depending on what you want to do with the class it's really the same answer, they have no utility, crappy defensive coolodowns, and they don't do favorable damage anymore. Is the class worthless? No, but when i play a class that gets outshined constantly, I'm going to play something else. My main is a Pyro PT, and he's been kinda sitting on the shelf because my sniper kicks his *** in dps output.

 

no no no no, its not that they do not have anything good, its that they are not stupid simple faceroll skilless burst anymore. The class is not dumbarse friendly so you actually have to know what you are doing...

 

you go to EVERY class forums and EVERYONE claims the class is not "viable" what it is, is nothing more then bad players complaining that they cannot lean on some broken or overpowered mechanic to make them feel like they are a good player.

[Ottoattack]

no no no no, its not that they do not have anything good, its that they are not stupid simple faceroll skilless burst anymore. The class is not dumbarse friendly so you actually have to know what you are doing...

 

you go to EVERY class forums and EVERYONE claims the class is not "viable" what it is, is nothing more then bad players complaining that they cannot lean on some broken or overpowered mechanic to make them feel like they are a good player.

 

Okay, let me put it to you in a simple way, PvE:

In the first page on the PT forum you will find a PvE discussion regarding PT viability as dps. Some of the people in the discussion play end game PvE, and based on TORParses, PT potential is between 2,200 to 2,400. Marudaer and sniper are between 2,900 and 3,100. In all except 3 bosses in TFB and S&V, PT had no presence in the top 10 parses. The only class that we can out dps is sins, yet, they are much better in short parses, like killing adds due to burst damage.

 

PvP:

As a starter I am not interested in you playing pug games and leading WZ in which most of the players barely use their class to 15 to 20% of its potential. On any lvl of competition dps PT will fall flat due to low survivability and low damage output. Ya, AP is a bit better in the survivability, but your still not ahead by much than pyro. Also the damage output has been gimped to a laughable position, burst is way below par and sustained is not much better. Bottom line what a dps PT offer is two taunts and pull, nothing else.

 

On another note, tank PT is now better on both PvE and PvP. Not as good as the other two tanks, but the gap is closer.

 

People always try to put a correlation between simplicity and damage output. They are not related what so ever. In addition, while PT is not hard to play, neither is any of the other classes. All classes are on a 5-6 button rotation with 20 skills that are used from occasionally to rarely. PT is 5 buttons. Your complicated class is 6? Did BW in the expansion change any of the PT mechanics? No. I would argue its even worse now, because everyone dropped TD from their build, so it is literally 4 button rotation for pyro.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Aetrus]

you go to EVERY class forums and EVERYONE claims the class is not "viable" what it is, is nothing more then bad players complaining that they cannot lean on some broken or overpowered mechanic to make them feel like they are a good player.

And you go to every DPS PT thread and rehearse the same speech then back down when anyone asks you anything specific. It was AP threads before and now you've moved onto the Pyro ones, too? So, let's see screenshots of this incredible Pyro play of yours. What server do you play on? How many rateds have you done? Why should anyone take you seriously without any credentials to back you up?

Edited May 13, 2013 by Aetrus

[Individual]

I was reading threads on this forum and I see that many guys say that Powertech is not viable. I'd like to know if that's true. I made my PT few days ago and I'd like to go pyro route. After seeing so many threads about nerfed PT I'm little concerned.

 

Don't do it. You'll hate it when you parse with other people in your raid. I went from being top DPS in my raid to lowest DPS in 1 patch. You might as well roll a warrior class as they never get nerfed. In fact, the warrior classes always seem to get buffed. You're better off rolling that or a sniper.