please stop telling people to " Go look it up online"!!

[NoFishing]

The thing to that most people who 'suggest' go online is that you also spoil the encounter for people who are doing it for the first time.

 

Got it. You don't want to know anything about the fight before you can get a fresh experience. That's cool. Personally I'd prefer you find like-minded guildies or pugs to run it with. You could try "LFG S&V SM, only people who have never run it and want a fresh experience pls." I'm sure if you spam that for a week or so, you can find 7 other people to sign up for that wipe-fest!

 

The thing is i think this is more of a playerbase skill issue more than a game/boss mechanic thing. As a tank i need to know only a few things, interuptable? tauntable? (that info i can get right from clicking on the boss himself) LOS damage ( ie turn the boss), aggro swap, big burst damage (blow your deffensive cd's). you give me that information myself and any other tank that knows what they're doing and is geared for the encounter should do fine.

 

Same thing goes for healers and dps, except they should be asking different questions. like healer should be asking is there a cleanse, is there a time for group aoe heals, how hard are the mdps going to be hit by Aoe, etc. give a good healer that info and they should be fine.

 

I think in summary what i'm trying to vent here is that the people who are trying to learn the game through playing it. When they are asking questions in game they are looking for answers in game. They are not looking for an external resource for that answer. they are seeking help from people who have actual experience in it or that may even be willing to help 'walk' them through the encounter.

 

Oh, wait, now I'm confused. You actually DO want to know something about the fight mechanics before you wipe us with your trial and error. Ok, fine....go read any one of the excellent write-ups on the boss fights and mechanics. It will take you a couple of minutes, and absolutely will not spoil the fight any more than me retyping the exact same thing for the umpteenth time in ops chat.

 

Or, if you really really really don't want to go read about the fight, then join us in our voice chat. If you want to join a raid as a pug, you should have vent, teamspeak, and mumble all installed and configured already.

 

I swear to god, the next time someone asks for a fight explanation in chat, I'm just going to copy-n-paste the entire explanation from dulfy. With proper attribution, of course.

[wainot-keel]

ok lets just put this down to playstyles and that's that, i prefer to learn in game, and yes sometimes that involved dying and wiping. This way though i'm actually learning what's going on and i can apply the lessons learned to future situations. I enjoy the challenge and the discovery of figuring out what' going to happen next and how i'll have to react. The thing to that most people who 'suggest' go online is that you also spoil the encounter for people who are doing it for the first time.

 

I think in summary what i'm trying to vent here is that the people who are trying to learn the game through playing it. When they are asking questions in game they are looking for answers in game. They are not looking for an external resource for that answer. they are seeking help from people who have actual experience in it or that may even be willing to help 'walk' them through the encounter.

 

Which one is it ? You want figuring things out for yourself wipe after wipe after wipe or want you to be walked through by experienced players ?

 

 

Also, you think that people who make those guides, those who make those write ups with mechanics and tips haven't played the game and haven't experienced the fight ? I wouldn't take anything from Noxxic seriuosly, but Dulfy site is really good place to learn the basics of any fight.

[dcgregorya]

If you're in a guild and you're doing content, by all means progress how you want to and how your guild is happy with you doing it. In a PUG though I expect you to know the fight. I'll give you a brief explanation - if you still can't grasp it, you're getting booted. I'm not going to wipe a whole raid for 45 minutes because one guy I might never chill with again refuses to figure out the fight.

[Never_Hesitate]

In a PUG though I expect you to know the fight. I'll give you a brief explanation

 

I always love the tries to explain operator IX or the 2nd phase of the terror.

[Valek_Hawke]

...It will take you a couple of minutes, and absolutely will not spoil the fight any more than me retyping the exact same thing for the umpteenth time in ops chat.

 

Somehow I doubt you've bothered to explain anything to anyone even one time, let alone an "umpteenth" time...in fact I'd be willing to bet you are probably one of the people I'm basing the rest of this post on...

 

That being said I personally do both. I read the guides and watch the videos (what few there are that are actually worth reading and/or watching) on the fight mechanics and I also ask in game in case there might be something that was not covered in the aforementioned. And while this may not be entirely "on topic", what tweaks my twizzle is when I see something like this pop up in general chat...

 

"LF Ballin' Tank Heals DPS & Pivot for HM55 slob fest - MUST have level xy Uber Ultra Extratesticular gear (thanks Fett), must know ALL fight mechanics perfectly by sound cues only and be able to execute flawlessly with no monitor, must be able to solo all boss fights...must link gaming Curriculum Vitae going back to at least Ultima IX to include highest Epic gear set and all achievements on every character you've ever created...blah blah blah..." You all know the ones I'm talking about...

 

When I see something like that the first thing that pops into my mind is "Damn Scooter! Aren't you about an arrogant f**kstick! PLEASE, share with us non-gaming gods and goddesses where and how exactly you Jacked into the Matrix and downloaded all of your gaming glory and prowess! Share with us how you were able to know every fight mechanic, every little trick or whatnot without ever asking a soul to explain something to you? Or how you were able to suddenly go from lowly noob gear to Extratesticular Godliness without ever being carried by better geared players on your meteoric rise to becoming a legend in your own mind? Well, I can see how in your arrogance you might not ask anything to be explained as in your mind there are none with more 133t mad skills than you and you make sure everybody knows it every chance you get.

 

This is not imo a helpful community by and large. Now, let me be perfectly clear and qualify that statement. I have met and chatted with some of the nicest and most helpful people one could want to meet in any gaming community, but sadly for every one of those people there are hundreds of little emo bastards who take the opportunity of someone asking a perfectly legitimate question to troll them, to mock them, to post some absolutely venom-filled vitriol and it's pathetic. I see those responses to questions and the first thing that pops into my mind is this guy

 

http://i.imgur.com/m1y42S7.jpg?1

 

screaming "Leave Britney ALONE!!!!" ... So sad

[NoFishing]

in fact I'd be willing to bet you are probably one of the people I'm basing the rest of this post on...

 

Then you would lose that bet, because I also find it incredibly silly when groups are LFM people that have fully augmented and min/maxed 69/72 gear for a SM OP. We've taken several people with 20-22k health through SM TFB and S&V and never batted an eye, as long as they were able to execute on the mechanics.

 

The only person I've ever preemptively kicked based on gear was a sentinel that joined us for a S&V run that had 3 or 4 defense or absorb enhancements, a tank relic, and a few cunning armorings. Anyone THAT clueless about their class and gear didn't stand a chance.

 

But I would love to see your chat-ready explanations of the Olok, Stryek, Operator IX, and TfB fights, assuming that you have actually done them and had to explain them to others.

Edited May 19, 2013 by NoFishing

[Jeweledleah]

here's the thing. explaining the fight in chat requires the person explaining it to actually know the fight. so they either have done it before, OR read up on it online. either way - they are not figuring out as they go. and since you are taking their instructions instead of going in blind? neither are you.

 

if you were figuring it out as you go, AS you like to claim, then you wouldn't want explanations and would group with people going in blind. at the core, you just don't want to make that tiny bit of effort to read strategies outside of the game. you'd rather others do it for you, so that you could claim that you are learning the game while playing the game, even though you are simply coasting on the efforts of other people.

 

and incidentally, I've done things blind. pretty much always with friends, not pugs and we deliberately wanted to figure things out on our own. I've also done solo things blind. it could be fun. but then i don't expect people to type up instructions for me in chat. and if I give up and ask for help and then given a link to said help? I'm thankful. because tabbing out is really not that difficult. I promise.

[dcgregorya]

I always love the tries to explain operator IX or the 2nd phase of the terror.

 

Yeah no, for TFB if you show me you don't know it, you're immediately vote kicked. Those are too complicated to explain using text in the short span of time that I want to commit to that particular boss.

 

And by all means, you want to run it blind run it blind with your guild/friends. I ran Lost Island blind the first time through. 8 hours later we wrapped up. I have no interest in doing that while using the group finder.

Edited May 20, 2013 by dcgregorya

[TalkingDinosaur]

I always love the tries to explain operator IX or the 2nd phase of the terror.

Wow, you've gotten that far with a pug? Pugs I get grouped with can barely grasp the opening adds.

[Nasja]

As the tittle states, please stop telling people to go look something up online. Almost daily I see someone ask a perfectly acceptable question over general, and there are people who take the time to try to help the person out. ie on makeb the h4 savage skies, "how do you destroy the turrets?" we've all been there. we were all confused for a second, then either figured it out or got a response from the in game community. we said, Ty, they responded Yw, and we moved on. But there's always people who's default answer is to tab out and check online!

 

My experience is that most of the time, after you give a perfect answer to his / her question they ask you 10 more questions usually starting with "it says" as a starter. So in stead of them trying to figure out what they should do next by for example checking things online they think since you helped them get started they think you are some kind of helpdesk they can always rely on. And since some people found an answer to that, check things online, That I believe is perfectly acceptable as well.

Also, in a single player game, you don't have other players to rely on for questions so your only source is to check things online. What is the big deal?

[Valek_Hawke]

...in fact I'd be willing to bet you are probably one of the people I'm basing the rest of this post on...

 

Then you would lose that bet... because I also find it incredibly silly when groups are LFM people that have fully augmented and min/maxed 69/72 gear for a SM OP. We've taken several people with 20-22k health through SM TFB and S&V and never batted an eye, as long as they were able to execute on the mechanics.

 

The only person I've ever preemptively kicked based on gear was a sentinel that joined us for a S&V run that had 3 or 4 defense or absorb enhancements, a tank relic, and a few cunning armorings. Anyone THAT clueless about their class and gear didn't stand a chance.

 

But I would love to see your chat-ready explanations of the Olok, Stryek, Operator IX, and TfB fights, assuming that you have actually done them and had to explain them to others.

 

First, allow me to apologize for that comment. The crux of my post was about people who are arrogant and disrespectful toward other players and that comment was disrespectful to you. Second, I have not done any of those fights you mentioned although I have watched the videos for Olok and Operator IX and yes, Operator IX still has my head swirling just remembering what I watched and I agree that explaining the fight in chat would be at the least a monumental undertaking and while I cannot say with any degree of certainty what my response would be to someone who asked to have the fight explained to them I can say with absolute certainty that were I qualified and capable of explaining it to someone I would do my dead level best to do so.

 

Look, I get that a number of these fights have some extremely complicated and mind numbing mechanics to them but let's be honest, these Operations really should not be PUG'd in the first place and if one does PUG one, either by forming or joining then I think there has to be a presupposition that you take what you get. I'll admit, I'm torn. I can see both sides of the coin here and I suppose what I'm getting at is HOW a player suggests that someone do some research beforehand, whether it be on the fight mechanics or their character. You mentioned the Sentinel you preemptively kicked for being so Totally clueless about their class and gear; May I ask HOW you preemptively kicked them? Were they blindsided by a popup saying they've been vote kicked for whatever reason and then the group just ignore their whispers asking why or did you take the time to talk to them and find out if they have ever played an MMO before and this was their first toon ever, or if they understood the importance of main stats and tertiary stats and the ones that applied specifically to their toon and explain to them that the way they were currently geared out while somehow allowed them to progress to that level would not benefit them or the group and ask them to leave the group perhaps with an offer to help them at a later time to get better gear or explain the benefits of finding a good guild to become a part of to that very end, perhaps even invite them to yours? Or that at that level the Makeb dailies were an excellent place to start gearing for the HM55's?

 

I also agree with you wholeheartedly that voice comms makes the process much smoother but it can't be assumed that everyone has them, is able to run them alongside the game or that they're comfortable doing so. I can only imagine that the abuse players suffer in game chat is only exponential in a blind voice comm and it's bad enough having to read it, who wants to sit and LISTEN to some pissed off at the world prepubescent emo scream about how bad you suck your first time into something b/c they're trying to look cool for their "friends" or prove to themselves that they're really NOT the reason their mom and dad are alcoholics?

 

Maybe I'm just too old for this game or any other MMO / multiplayer game. Maybe I'm just too idealistic to believe that treating people with kindness and respect are the ways a person should behave anymore because I rarely see it or read it anymore and when I do it shines like a white-hot light in the night. Someone, I don't remember who made the comment something to the effect of it was good to see people standing up to the Elitist Jerks or something or other to that effect...if only it would do any good...

[Grimsblood]

As the tittle states, please stop telling people to go look something up online. Almost daily I see someone ask a perfectly acceptable question over general, and there are people who take the time to try to help the person out. ie on makeb the h4 savage skies, "how do you destroy the turrets?" we've all been there. we were all confused for a second, then either figured it out or got a response from the in game community. we said, Ty, they responded Yw, and we moved on. But there's always people who's default answer is to tab out and check online!

 

I mean are these people completely relying on outside sources to learn to play the game. I might be in the minority but i like to 'learn' how to play the game by 'playing' the game and not having it scripted to me by someone outside! it happened to last week on makeb doing the weekly [toboros courtyard] where you kill the golden fury "boss droid". The ops leader kept spamming 'oh make sure you check online for tactics blah, blah, blah' i dropped group because i can't stand that. I found another group recently that needed a tank, now my tank is in full 69 gear augmented and i've got over 38k health, and i've also tanked every boss, in every FP, Op, world boss fight there is I know how to tank. just give me the basics and i'll be fine! I don't need /want to have to tab out of a game to learn how to play it! I can learn to play the game from playing the game! (wow what a concept!) oh and btw for those that don't know how easy that fight is here let me explain it!

 

 

you walk into the instance and you start dpsing these "towers" down to about 20% there's one for every group member, you'll need the debuff from them later on in the boss fight. the main tank turns the boss away from the group, off tank gathers up adds when they appear. melee dps behind the boss, ranged up on the walls on the side of the courtyard. about every 45s the boss does an attack that will kill anyone that's on the floor infront of him. basically a giant laser. you've got plenty of warning when the attack happens, and then you run up onto the sides to join ranged/healers and wait out the attack, then go back down and repeat this until the boss it to about 20% health when he releases an aoe radiation burst, this is when you go kill the "towers" and get your radiation protection buff, then burn the boss down.

This is not an overly complex mechanic! and definately easily explained in chat in game.

 

If you're the type of player who wants to be given everything, doesn't like surprises and wants to have your hand held throughout the entire game (and unfortunately there are people like that) then go ahead go to the website and spoil everything for yourself. But there's no content in this game that a decent player can't figure out through playing it a couple of times or just with a few tips typed in through chat.

 

You don't really have an argument here. Weather you watch a video, read a strat or have someone tell you; you gain the information by NOT playing the game (having someone explain something via in-game chat does not count -_-). The only way you can learn a fight strictly by playing the game is to run progression on that content (That is why we track guilds progression for new content and race for world first). If you are joining a pug run for ANYTHING, you are joining to "farm" or clear a quest/lockout; not progression. If you can not be courteous enough to approach a pug run with some sort of knowledge base why would I as a raid leader want someone whom I have to carry and will be a liability that runs up the repair bills of the entire group?

[NoFishing]

You mentioned the Sentinel you preemptively kicked for being so Totally clueless about their class and gear; May I ask HOW you preemptively kicked them?

 

They were definitely informed their gearing was terrible. It's been a couple of weeks, so I won't have the exact wording, but there were chats to the effect of:

 

Us: Dude, you are sentinel, you can't even equip a shield, what do you think shield and absorb do for you?

Us: ***, you have cunning too? you are not a smuggler!

Sentinel: that's why I'm here, I need gear

Us: go back and run dailies/FPs to get correct gear for your class

 

Was it the kindest and most coddling way we could have informed him he was not welcome due to his gear?Obviously not. But he was told what was wrong and pointed in the direction to go to fix it. And the truth is, there is usually very little patience for your desired level of hand holding in a 8-man op when the rest of the group is ready to go.

 

I also agree with you wholeheartedly that voice comms makes the process much smoother but it can't be assumed that everyone has them, is able to run them alongside the game or that they're comfortable doing so. I can only imagine that the abuse players suffer in game chat is only exponential in a blind voice comm and it's bad enough having to read it, who wants to sit and LISTEN to some pissed off at the world prepubescent emo scream about how bad you suck your first time into something b/c they're trying to look cool for their "friends" or prove to themselves that they're really NOT the reason their mom and dad are alcoholics?

 

In my experience, both from our own voice chat and guesting in several others, it is usually the exact opposite. Where ops chat becomes angry abusive trolling, voice chat is quite polite and friendly. The only times it becomes testy is if someone starts making so many comments or asks so many questions that it becomes distracting, or if every single drop becomes "can I roll need on that?" or "I could use that for my companion." But bring normal MMO and Christmas party etiquette, and you'd probably be surprised at how laid back most groups running ops really are. You might also be surprised at how many grown-ups with jobs, kids, and lives you come across.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NoFishing

[NoFishing]

Someone, I don't remember who made the comment something to the effect of it was good to see people standing up to the Elitist Jerks or something or other to that effect...if only it would do any good...

 

I'll give you another example from last night, and you can decide whether we were being elitist jerks or not.

 

We have 7 for S&V SM, so pug one DPS through group finder. The "DPS" is a shadow, in tank stance, in tank gear, who says it is his first op ever. We post our guild's mumble info, but do NOT explain any mechanics of the first fight in chat. After everyone is assembled, we start the fight. He is knocked out of the shield constantly, taunts the boss occasionally, and eventually dies due to being lost in the sandstorm and not using a shield. He releases before we kill DR, and is ineligible for loot. We advise him "do not release from ops or you cannot loot". He says "good to know".

 

Since we've killed the first boss and he has not, the GF travel now option is broken so he has to zone in manually. We continue clearing trash while he does this, but wait for him to rejoin us for the second boss. We say "you should switch to a DPS spec/stance". We then fight and kill Titan 6 with him in tank stance and spec.

 

More trash pulls, 2 of which he starts on his own without the rest of the group and dies as a result. One of our tanks facetiously asks the pug if he would like to tank the rest, so our tank can switch to DPS. He is STILL in tank stance and spec, and has now guarded me (a healer) for some reason.

 

Thrasher goes down, with the only incident being that I have to pull the pug to the wall (was on my sage) to keep the firebug's AoE off the melee group.

 

We get to the operations chief fight, and exchange:

 

Us: first part of this is a 2 on 2 fight, if 3 of us fight a team, we die

Us: WE will do all fighting/tanking/healing for this phase...just watch...do not engage anything

Us: stay with the group and do not hit anything

Us: we will let you know when you can start fighting...it will be at Operations Chief

Pug: ok

 

Me and a DPS start fighting the third team, and I notice the PuG has followed us into the room. Ok, I figure he is just trying to stay with the group. About 15 seconds into the fight, the PuG joins in, and we die.

 

Us: SERIOUSLY DUDE, ***? WE SAID DON'T FIGHT ANYTHING, WE HAVE IT HANDLED!"

 

And we vote kicked him. We did this for 2 reasons: first, the next fight is an actual puzzle, and we had no confidence he would actually be able to follow a simple instruction like "click the bottom right circle on the panel when you get a token" after failing an even simpler instruction of "do nothing". And also, operations chief completes the weekly, so his replacement could get 4 bosses plus the weekly, making it much easier to find a replacement on a Tuesday night.

 

So we carried a inexperienced player in the wrong gear and stance through 3 bosses, and invited him to join our voice chat for explanations. But we did not bother to explain ANY of the mechanics on the fights, berated him a bit for using his taunts and pulling trash on his own, and vote kicked him without hesitation at the first sign that he could actually make it difficult for us to complete S&V that night. Are we elitist jerks?

[Valek_Hawke]

I also agree with you wholeheartedly that voice comms makes the process much smoother but it can't be assumed that everyone has them, is able to run them alongside the game or that they're comfortable doing so. I can only imagine that the abuse players suffer in game chat is only exponential in a blind voice comm and it's bad enough having to read it, who wants to sit and LISTEN to some pissed off at the world prepubescent emo scream about how bad you suck your first time into something b/c they're trying to look cool for their "friends" or prove to themselves that they're really NOT the reason their mom and dad are alcoholics?

 

But bring normal MMO and Christmas party etiquette, and you'd probably be surprised at how laid back most groups running ops really are. You might also be surprised at how many grown-ups with jobs, kids, and lives you come across.

 

Ok, I will admit that that statement is a presupposition based on all of the rude, snobbish, arrogant, egotistical, angry, elitist, abusive and abrasive comments I have seen thrown back and forth in the chat window and not on personal experience in a blind voice comm, so perhaps you are right, I don't know. Personally I still believe that were there some empirically tabulated results that my supposition might be proved to be the majority and not the minority. However, I probably should not have narrowed it down as I did to JUST adolescents as there are many grown-ups with jobs kids and lives who act like pissed off at the world prepubescent emos trying to look cool for their "friends" or prove to themselves that they're really NOT the reason their mom and dad are alcoholics.

 

I'll give you another example from last night, and you can decide whether we were being elitist jerks or not.

 

We have 7 for S&V SM, so pug one DPS through group finder. The "DPS" is a shadow, in tank stance, in tank gear, who says it is his first op ever. We post our guild's mumble info, but do NOT explain any mechanics of the first fight in chat. After everyone is assembled, we start the fight. He is knocked out of the shield constantly, taunts the boss occasionally, and eventually dies due to being lost in the sandstorm and not using a shield. He releases before we kill DR, and is ineligible for loot. We advise him "do not release from ops or you cannot loot". He says "good to know".

 

Since we've killed the first boss and he has not, the GF travel now option is broken so he has to zone in manually. We continue clearing trash while he does this, but wait for him to rejoin us for the second boss. We say "you should switch to a DPS spec/stance". We then fight and kill Titan 6 with him in tank stance and spec.

 

More trash pulls, 2 of which he starts on his own without the rest of the group and dies as a result. One of our tanks facetiously asks the pug if he would like to tank the rest, so our tank can switch to DPS. He is STILL in tank stance and spec, and has now guarded me (a healer) for some reason.

 

Thrasher goes down, with the only incident being that I have to pull the pug to the wall (was on my sage) to keep the firebug's AoE off the melee group.

 

We get to the operations chief fight, and exchange:

 

Us: first part of this is a 2 on 2 fight, if 3 of us fight a team, we die

Us: WE will do all fighting/tanking/healing for this phase...just watch...do not engage anything

Us: stay with the group and do not hit anything

Us: we will let you know when you can start fighting...it will be at Operations Chief

Pug: ok

 

Me and a DPS start fighting the third team, and I notice the PuG has followed us into the room. Ok, I figure he is just trying to stay with the group. About 15 seconds into the fight, the PuG joins in, and we die.

 

Us: SERIOUSLY DUDE, ***? WE SAID DON'T FIGHT ANYTHING, WE HAVE IT HANDLED!"

 

And we vote kicked him. We did this for 2 reasons: first, the next fight is an actual puzzle, and we had no confidence he would actually be able to follow a simple instruction like "click the bottom right circle on the panel when you get a token" after failing an even simpler instruction of "do nothing". And also, operations chief completes the weekly, so his replacement could get 4 bosses plus the weekly, making it much easier to find a replacement on a Tuesday night.

 

So we carried a inexperienced player in the wrong gear and stance through 3 bosses, and invited him to join our voice chat for explanations. But we did not bother to explain ANY of the mechanics on the fights, berated him a bit for using his taunts and pulling trash on his own, and vote kicked him without hesitation at the first sign that he could actually make it difficult for us to complete S&V that night. Are we elitist jerks?

 

Well, first off I wanted to go back and re-read my last post to make sure that I had not somehow said that YOU were an Elitist Jerk, and for the life of me I don't think I did, BUT if you took it to mean that I was calling you personally an Elitist Jerk then that was not my intention. NOW, that being said, I remember something my Dad used to say when I was just a little kid and I think it might apply here...WITH THE CAVEAT that I am NOT calling YOU an Elitist Jerk, I can't make that decision about you, I don't know you nor, - that I am aware of - have I seen you personally talking the kind of trash to which I am referring. For all I know you might be one helluva cool guy or girl, I don't know. But, a hit dog hollers loudest. Only YOU (Sound like Smokey the Bear ) know whether or not you are one of the Elitist Jerks. Same thing goes for your group. They might be great people too, I don't know.

 

Now that that's out of the way I probably would have done something similar to what you did, only I might have handled it a bit differently..."coddled" them I believe was the term you used. First off, I remember the very first time I used GF as a sin Tank. For whatever reason (I like to blame it on the effects of old age on the mind and memory) I forgot to uncheck the DPS role before entering the queue so I got picked up as the DPS of the group. Still not realizing WHAT I had done or the apparent life-threatening gravity of my mistake I began to tank the instance and was quickly and viciously reminded that I was the DPS NOT the tank. Now that doesn't seem to be at all what you or your group did to this pugger, I only use this example illustratively to point out that maybe he just made a simple mistake and forgot to uncheck the DPS role in GF. I don't know. But it seems like you and your group were kind enough to overlook this mistake.

 

Now, you mentioned that the pugger told you or your group that it was their first OP ever, and that you said you posted your guild's Mumble info into chat. Did they ever take advantage of that? Also, as they admitted that that was their first OP ever, did anyone bother to tell them that they had to purchase the shield generator from the vendor right there at the beginning for just that very reason, for WHEN they got knocked out of the shield and had to make their way back to the group? I can't imagine that that particular instruction would take too long. And since they did admit that it was their first OP ever, why didn't anyone offer to explain the fight to them? Granted, it is a bit complicated and would take a while to explain so I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that apparently they didn't take you up on your offer to join your group in Mumble, but I could be wrong.

 

He releases before we kill DR, and is ineligible for loot. We advise him "do not release from ops or you cannot loot". He says "good to know".

 

Yeah, I remember the one and only time I did that, turns out it was the very fist Raid I took part in too. My reasoning was that I needed to get back to my party as quickly as possible to help them bring down the boss. Only takes that happening one time for someone to learn a very valuable lesson and it's a fundamental rule of Raids / OPs that I wish someone would have warned me about before the fight ever started. But at least it's one less person eligible for the loot table on that boss. Got to be good for somebody, right?

 

As I said, I would have likely asked the player to leave the OPs group as well, esp. since the rest of you seemed to be a guild group, but I would have explained to them why I was asking them to leave. To be honest, it sounds like to me that after the first fight (and again, I am making a supposition here), not even being told to buy some shield generators for when they get booted out into the sand and then being told AFTER they die and release that they shouldn't have done that and that their punishment for doing so (regardless of their intentions) was to be banned from the loot table for that boss, they probably figured "F**k it" and just decided to grief you all a little bit. I don't know if that is in fact the case but it sounds like it could be one possibility.

 

Politely asking someone to leave an OPs group who had done some of the things you mentioned, esp about the 2 on 2 fight, I would say No, that doesn't make you or your friends elitist jerks. Blindly vote kicking them, well...like I said; Berating him/her for whatever reason short of them outright disrespecting you or your group members...well, yeah I think those actions could be considered being an elitist jerk, but like I said, YOU have to decide that for yourself.

[Lodril]

This strikes me as a flaw in game design, although I suppose it could be chalked up to people liking to play this way. Personally, I just want to get into a game and play... if I have to possess Jedi-like prescience to accomplish a task in game, then I tend to find it irritating. I spent decades in school, study things all the time for work, and I've no interest in focusing that sort of non-game attention on a game. It's not fun.

 

I like the idea of multi-player missions, and will enjoy the occasional heroic, but this sort of nonsense is why I tend to avoid FPs in general. When I did PUGs before, on several occasions the group would insist on these bizarre circuitous routes to avoid any of the boss fights, and then be upset at me for not already having the gear that comes from those boss fights. When I explained that, the answer was inevitably, "Why aren't you in a guild?" Thus, it's become mostly a single-player game for me.

[NoFishing]

I only use this example illustratively to point out that maybe he just made a simple mistake and forgot to uncheck the DPS role in GF. I don't know. But it seems like you and your group were kind enough to overlook this mistake.

 

Exactly, it happens, and it doesn't really bother us. It would be best if one would at least respec to DPS when this happens, but it isn't really a problem until we start hitting enrage timers. That isn't true of the reverse though...a DPS joining as a tank is tougher to overlook.

 

Now, you mentioned that the pugger told you or your group that it was their first OP ever, and that you said you posted your guild's Mumble info into chat. Did they ever take advantage of that?

 

Nope.

 

Also, as they admitted that that was their first OP ever, did anyone bother to tell them that they had to purchase the shield generator from the vendor right there at the beginning for just that very reason, for WHEN they got knocked out of the shield and had to make their way back to the group? I can't imagine that that particular instruction would take too long. And since they did admit that it was their first OP ever, why didn't anyone offer to explain the fight to them? Granted, it is a bit complicated and would take a while to explain so I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that apparently they didn't take you up on your offer to join your group in Mumble, but I could be wrong.

 

The short, honest answer is because we didn't have to. We made a decision that we were only going to instruct him on enough of the mechanics so that the raid could progress. If he didn't put forth any effort into either reading a summary of the mechanics before queuing, or joining us in voice chat, why should we bother trying to explain all of the mechanics in chat? We fully expected him to die frequently, but were also quite confident we would kill the all of the bosses anyway, as long as he could stay out of combat in the city and click on an assigned spot on a panel.

 

This is, I think, the central argument of this thread. If he didn't want to die to a mechanic, he could have educated himself about them beforehand, even in summary form. Or he could have joined us in mumble. Instead he apparently wanted to experience the mechanics for the first time as he played...should we have taken that from him? And if we had given him mechanics on that first boss in chat, would it have mattered, since even when we instructed him on how to assist the group, he effectively ignored everything we said?

 

If I take the most charitable stance...that he wanted to learn about the op first-hand, and not from a guide, I still highly doubt he actually learned anything. Will he know to buy a shield and when to use it next time, since nobody explicitly told him? Did he even ask himself why he died on that when nobody else did? Or "why did that sage pull me towards the wall that one time?" Or "why did we wipe when fighting those 2 guys?" He certainly didn't ask *us* any of those questions.

[Valek_Hawke]

This is, I think, the central argument of this thread. If he didn't want to die to a mechanic, he could have educated himself about them beforehand, even in summary form. Or he could have joined us in mumble. Instead he apparently wanted to experience the mechanics for the first time as he played...should we have taken that from him? And if we had given him mechanics on that first boss in chat, would it have mattered, since even when we instructed him on how to assist the group, he effectively ignored everything we said?

 

If I take the most charitable stance...that he wanted to learn about the op first-hand, and not from a guide, I still highly doubt he actually learned anything. Will he know to buy a shield and when to use it next time, since nobody explicitly told him? Did he even ask himself why he died on that when nobody else did? Or "why did that sage pull me towards the wall that one time?" Or "why did we wipe when fighting those 2 guys?" He certainly didn't ask *us* any of those questions.

 

As I said, I really do see both sides of the coin. Yes he could have educated himself beforehand and yes, and on the other hand you and your group could have explained things in chat. Are you wrong for not doing so? No, not necessarily. Perhaps in my tilting at the passing windmills I've taken this thread off of its intended course and for that I am sorry. The point I wanted to make is about how players in this game and probably every other mmo are treated so abrasively and abusively for simply asking for help. Granted every situation is different and It's a lot easier to tell someone "Keep Braxx away from the hounds b/c he buffs them if he gets that red circle under them and Focus Fire the 2 hounds" Than it is to explain a boss fight in an op. I get that. All I'm saying is please do it politely.

[abokado]

Preparing yourself before doing something with a group is the polite thing to do, dude.

[Valek_Hawke]

Preparing yourself before doing something with a group is the polite thing to do, dude.

 

Absolutely, without a doubt you are correct.

[theStirge]

The OP was, I think, referring more to people out in the world than flashpoints and ops. Especially on the starter planets, you see a lot of people asking questions, because, hello, starter planet, and then you see a lot of people telling them to go look it up online and generally just being jerks.

 

Sure, if you're on Correllia or Ilum or Section X or something, you can expect people to have a certain level of knowledge and to be able to just go look stuff up if they don't know, but on the starter worlds? Really? Not everyone is there running their 7th alt; a pretty fair number will never have played any MMO before at all. Them asking questions instead of looking it up isn't laziness on their part, it's learning to play the game and seeking knowledge from people who know more than they do. Heck, in that case telling them to look it up online might actually be doing them a favor, as long as you're not a jerk about it. "Here's this great website that has all the info you want, and you can go at your own pace and not get derided for not instantly knowing everything about your new experience."

 

And if you don't want to answer their question? Don't answer their question. You're right, it's not your responsibility to answer noob questions. It's also not your responsibility to be a jerk to them, but a lot of people eagerly do that anyway, often taking way more time to do that than it would have to just answer the question in the first place. And really, what else is general chat going to be used for? Bacon jokes? Movie titles with the word Jawa substituted in? Pointless and/or hateful political discussions? Yes, that's so much better than requests for information.

 

Absolutely agree, though, that you should have at least a basic knowledge of the fights before going into PUG ops. Otherwise you're just wasting other people's time. Asking for clarification isn't a bad thing, though, if you've never been before, or never as the role you're in(like I usually heal but if I go in as DPS I'm not going to be as familiar, so I'll ask some questions so as not to screw up and waste everybody's time with a wipe).

[AlrikFassbauer]

The OP was, I think, referring more to people out in the world than flashpoints and ops. Especially on the starter planets, you see a lot of people asking questions, because, hello, starter planet, and then you see a lot of people telling them to go look it up online and generally just being jerks.

 

I can fully understand people asking on starter planets.

 

What I do not understand, however, is when someone who already has dozens of level 55 characters says to them (on the starter plants !) that they should behave like joining an OP, in this sense.

 

The high-levelplayers begin small again - but they carry over their Eliticist mind set even into the starter planets !

[WillHolmes]

how to QQ about pointless stuff "look it up online"

[ArissArgile]

For my response to this thread, go look it up online. Oh wait...

[Atramar]

As the tittle states, please stop telling people to go look something up online.

 

I'm sorry for being impolite, but:

tell me genius, why should I explain how to do EC 3rd puzzle boss every single time using game chat?

How with my limited english, can I explain some one with limited english how properly click buttons?

Actually I did, twice, and each time that person did it in oposite order.

think on my last EC I was only one who ever did it before, so had to explain every single boss every phase on in game chat to people who I will never meet again. I've spent more time typing then fighting (and me constantly typing pissed off my fiancee)

 

going online he can check with his native language, or YT with pictures while I grab a drink.

 

as for starting planets, googling something you don't know or learning by trying is best solution. if person asks 'what is my main stat, I'm marauder' you tell him 'strenght'. then he statrs new character, he will ask same question. and next character...

if you send him to google or bing, for guides, he will learn what is his main stat, secondary stat, proposed power/crit/surge/accuracy ratings,builds and rotations.

see advantage?

Edited July 23, 2013 by Atramar