The weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[power-alex]

So if the other dps can't do enough to help kill boss with me doing 4K while healing and CC'ing, why should I bother?

are you talking about prenerf? Because I single dpsed it 2 times now as the other dps died almost instantly. I'll have to check but I think after the nerf team dps requirement on the furball is about 5kdps. So with your 4kdps, if a tank does at least 900 dps and healer throws in a couple of dots, you should be able to down him even with 0 dps from the other guy.

 

high health doesn't always mean good player. in fact, half the time, the ones with lower HP tend to perform better than the ones with higher HP, from what i've experienced. or maybe i'm just lucky.

 

that's why he said: I'll zone in and inspect.

[CheaterLL]

Because I've gotten BH HM, done 4K dps while tossing heals on myself while swapping to boss for final burn while CC'ing adds that are up, and still had the boss enrage and one shot the tank and wipe the group.

 

So if the other dps can't do enough to help kill boss with me doing 4K while healing and CC'ing, why should I bother?

 

And yes - it really isn't that bad - I've also gotten a group on my tank where two players got the achievement for killing the boss, and we did it in one shot without a problem.

 

But for whatever reason, this boss just wrecks groups with poor players, and there seem to be far more poor players than good ones in GF.

 

Everyone over 50K HP, I'll give it a go. Anyone at 40K or less, I won't even zone in. In-between, I'll zone and inspect.

 

So if I queue for FPs and PvP you'll quit because I have 40k in pvp gear and not enough time to swap it for my pve gear?

[power-alex]

So if I queue for FPs and PvP you'll quit because I have 40k in pvp gear and not enough time to swap it for my pve gear?

 

I share main hand, belt and chest between mara and guardian, so when I q on mara I'm missing also offhand and have 38khp.

Even zoned in in Blood hunt hm like that once. So I guess I'm lucky people didn't leave then Fetched my gear and we finished it. Second dps was awesome, I asked him to stay on the boss and boss just melted, while I took care of adds.

[happysister]

that's why he said: I'll zone in and inspect.

 

and like i said before, gear =/= skill. a person can have so-so gear, but still play their role smart. a person can also be in full resurrected 6 set BiS gear and be really bad cause they don't know their rotation or have good raid awareness.

[DawnAskham]

are you talking about prenerf? Because I single dpsed it 2 times now as the other dps died almost instantly. I'll have to check but I think after the nerf team dps requirement on the furball is about 5kdps. So with your 4kdps, if a tank does at least 900 dps and healer throws in a couple of dots, you should be able to down him even with 0 dps from the other guy.

.

 

Yeah post nerf, back to back on this boss the other day.

 

First time on Assassin tanking, two 'never done this one' players, no one significantly over-geared, pulled boss, taunted and manged adds best I could, avoided crap, boss died before enraging, nothing out of the ordinary or any 'omg' close calls. Both dps were Mercs.

 

Second time on Sorc as dps, 4k dps (boss and adds), swapping to boss and cc'ing last spawning adds, boss enrages, tank dies instantly, I stay alive a bit kiting but not long enough to get that last few K down. Other dps a low (but not terrible) geared Mara.

 

Personally I think it was just a really bad dps + really bad tank and healer. The tank was running all over and getting knocked across room while tthe healer seemed to be struggling. I've done this boss on my Sorc with a 38K dps and a friend healing (and a freind of theirs tanking), and we killed the boss right at enrage.

 

So if I queue for FPs and PvP you'll quit because I have 40k in pvp gear and not enough time to swap it for my pve gear?

 

Maybe - depends on the FP and your class.

 

If HM BH pops and you're on a melee character with 40K, I may drop, especially if the rest of the group seems on the low side as well.

 

Again - depending on my mood I will probably zone in and inspect / see if people change gear (I too do the grab legacy gear while queueing while doing other stuff) before bailing - but after a couple bad runs (they seem to come in spurts) I get a bit reluctant to bother if it doesn't at least appear like the group has a reasonable chance.

 

and like i said before, gear =/= skill. a person can have so-so gear, but still play their role smart. a person can also be in full resurrected 6 set BiS gear and be really bad cause they don't know their rotation or have good raid awareness.

 

True- but thus far no game has been able to provide a skill score or achievements like <Did More than 2.5K DPS While Avoiding Circles> or <Knows Left from Right>, so sadly a crude proxy using gear or achievements is all we have (and not a terrible proxy with inspection - 40K with 92% accuracy, no augments, and wonky stats is like a giant 'I don't give a crap and suck anyway' sign).

Edited July 30, 2015 by DawnAskham

[Danylia]

Assault on Tython HM. Tank joins, doesn't reply to "hello" or say anything at all. Runs around erratically, pulling groups which not only can be skipped, but aren't even nowhere near the objectives. Pulls the first boss a split second after we clear the trash group under the stairs, leaving no space for strategy or simple "everyone knows what to do?". Cannot hold aggro but doesn't bother with guard or taunt. Has no idea what to do when the adds come, and during their second wave dies in OS. Immediately releases to medcenter, and a moment after drops the group, still remaining completely silent.

Fortunately the healer and other DPS were really good, and we got a solid tank replacement in the middle of second boss so the run ended without a single wipe.

[DawnAskham]

Assault on Tython HM. Tank joins, doesn't reply to "hello" or say anything at all. Runs around erratically, pulling groups which not only can be skipped, but aren't even nowhere near the objectives. Pulls the first boss a split second after we clear the trash group under the stairs, leaving no space for strategy or simple "everyone knows what to do?". Cannot hold aggro but doesn't bother with guard or taunt. Has no idea what to do when the adds come, and during their second wave dies in OS. Immediately releases to medcenter, and a moment after drops the group, still remaining completely silent.

Fortunately the healer and other DPS were really good, and we got a solid tank replacement in the middle of second boss so the run ended without a single wipe.

 

I got a Tython HM the other day on my sorc, and when the adds came we lost the other dps, then the tank, then the healer. I think the healer tossed a b-rez (I tried to b-rez the tank but the debuff was up, though it didn't appear anyone took the rezz as I could see everyone running back on the map.

 

Somehow I stayed alive and was on the last add just as the group began filtering back to the platform, got a slight respite and some heals while consuming a bit to get my force up, only to have the next add wave start and watching everyone die again in succession.

 

This time the healer dropped the group with a 'I can't handle this FP yet" comment, and I again played dodge the orbitals while trying to stay alive while praying my force would not run out, and again stayed alive long enough for the others to get back and we killed the boss.

 

This was as madness which has become my preferred discipline for running pug HMs as the self healing is very handy.

[rawtravel]

I have to say that I am flummoxed by the folks who insta-drop as soon as they see "Blood Hunt Hard Mode".

 

Reasons I have seen include "don't want to waste my time" or "other members' gear is not good enough" etc. I think these players have lost site of what they like about this game. Is it not the actual battles and especially boss battles that are the most fun and the reason why we play? I suppose if what you like to do is buy and modify gear, but don't like to actually play with that toon....then yes, playing the game is a "waste" of time.

 

For me, it is the very fact that BH HM is the toughest FP and could actually take some skill and require me to pay attention. I mean all the other FPs are pretty much facerolls anymore, so when BH HM pops I'm like "YES!" and I sit up and crack my knuckles. Let's do this! I enjoy the challenge, and even learn a thing or two sometimes when I am challenged. Also, I find that groups will communicate more when they are faced with a challenge. Well, good groups that is. It's still true that people will drop the group after one wipe, rather than try to talk amongst the group and figure out how they can do better next time. That's the group content that I play this game for.

 

A frustrating BH HM story......Zoned in and both DPS quit instantly, even before the trash pulls. I'm Jugg tank. So healer and I requeue. It takes a few tries, because dopes that just quit got back into queue! LOL! Eventually we get a group and no one is quitting! I pull the first boss.. Not the worst I've seen. We got to about 40% before wipe. There were some positioning issues (electrical fields and rocks) and adds got forgotten. We chat and I decide to grab two of the adds to help out. We get to 25% this time, but I got out of position and got knocked off the world. Wipe. Third try, I grab an add or two each round and keep good position on Boss, while DPS and healz do a great job avoiding AOEs and we wail on the boss to like 8% before...enrage and wipe!

 

Okay gang, this time for sure, right?! Let's really focus on our rotations, our positions, and we can do this!! Nope. One DPS quits, and shortly after the other one quits too!! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! No chat, nothing, just quit, after spending 30 minutes or so fighting this boss, and racking up repair bills. For sure we would have killed it next time, right? Unfortunately, we got no more replacements and after 20 more minutes healer and I shook hands with a shrug and went out separate ways. What's with people??!!

[LydMekk]

I have to say that I am flummoxed by the folks who insta-drop as soon as they see "Blood Hunt Hard Mode".

 

Reasons I have seen include "don't want to waste my time" or "other members' gear is not good enough" etc. I think these players have lost site of what they like about this game. Is it not the actual battles and especially boss battles that are the most fun and the reason why we play? I suppose if what you like to do is buy and modify gear, but don't like to actually play with that toon....then yes, playing the game is a "waste" of time.

 

For me, it is the very fact that BH HM is the toughest FP and could actually take some skill and require me to pay attention. I mean all the other FPs are pretty much facerolls anymore, so when BH HM pops I'm like "YES!" and I sit up and crack my knuckles. Let's do this! I enjoy the challenge, and even learn a thing or two sometimes when I am challenged. Also, I find that groups will communicate more when they are faced with a challenge. Well, good groups that is. It's still true that people will drop the group after one wipe, rather than try to talk amongst the group and figure out how they can do better next time. That's the group content that I play this game for.

 

A frustrating BH HM story......Zoned in and both DPS quit instantly, even before the trash pulls. I'm Jugg tank. So healer and I requeue. It takes a few tries, because dopes that just quit got back into queue! LOL! Eventually we get a group and no one is quitting! I pull the first boss.. Not the worst I've seen. We got to about 40% before wipe. There were some positioning issues (electrical fields and rocks) and adds got forgotten. We chat and I decide to grab two of the adds to help out. We get to 25% this time, but I got out of position and got knocked off the world. Wipe. Third try, I grab an add or two each round and keep good position on Boss, while DPS and healz do a great job avoiding AOEs and we wail on the boss to like 8% before...enrage and wipe!

 

Okay gang, this time for sure, right?! Let's really focus on our rotations, our positions, and we can do this!! Nope. One DPS quits, and shortly after the other one quits too!! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! No chat, nothing, just quit, after spending 30 minutes or so fighting this boss, and racking up repair bills. For sure we would have killed it next time, right? Unfortunately, we got no more replacements and after 20 more minutes healer and I shook hands with a shrug and went out separate ways. What's with people??!!

 

When EA can't be bothered to make an FP which can be run by pugs I can't be bothered to rack up 50K in repair bills and wasted time to try to get newbs through it. Sry, thats it - instant drop.

 

Underlurker and BH HM, what were you thinking EA? Bad programming.

[rawtravel]

When EA can't be bothered to make an FP which can be run by pugs I can't be bothered to rack up 50K in repair bills and wasted time to try to get newbs through it. Sry, thats it - instant drop..

 

This is my point. PUGs certainly CAN do this content. I know it's true because I have only ever done BH HM via GF and I've cleared it 4 times, twice before last update. Even PUGs with not-ideal gear, even with sub-par players. Yes, with some practice and especially with some guidance from more experience players in the group....this FP CAN be done!

 

"Wasted time to get noobs through it"......for me that's the most rewarding part. Helping someone else to improve their game, just like I got help when I was a whelp. And what are you doing with your valuable time? Battle of Rishi? Korriban Incurrsion? Yawn. Are you honestly happier rolling your face back and forth on the keyboard doing those, than actively trying to figure out a way to get your sorry group over the line, by communicating and working together? Just think how great it will feel when you beat the mission, after 6 wipes and working with the group to improve everyone's skill. It's a good feeling, I can tell you.

 

"rack up 50K in repair bills"......really? Be honest, do you even feel the loss of 50K credits? I'll bet your balance is over 1 million credits pretty much all the time.

[Cox_The_Beast]

Tonight I went through Ravagers 8m SM for the first time with my Lightning Sorc. With a PuG, no less!

 

I was just on fleet, doing pretty much nothing but chatting with a few friends, when I saw a call for the Op. I waited a moment, when they look for 1 DPS they're pretty much set up already, and I rarely get the time to type something before they say they're filled. Still, this once I saw the call happen twice, so I decided to risk it. I made it clear I had no set bonus, even though I ran all other Ops before 3.0. I explained I had my gear augmented, and that my rating is all 190+ (save for the augments, of course, those are 178-186 ). And of course, I mentioned all I knew about hte Op came from guides and videos, as I never had a chance to run it before.

The others seemed a bit concerned, but I cracked a joke regarding my performance, along the lines of "If I'm too bad, tell me about it. I won't cry". They laughed a bit, I assume, in TS - or at least, one of them that I met before whispered me so. Then off we went.

 

The team was pretty balanced, everyone was above the 186 rating. Most had Set Bonus and augments, some only one of the two - I only had augments, myself, no set bonus yet - but we were all geared pretty nicely.

The run was pretty good, no complete wipes, though a few times I was asked to battlerez as the healers were too busy keeping the others up. Still, satisfying.

 

Loot Rules were set on Master Looter, as the others agreed before taking me in. Not a problem, I wasn't really there for the gear, what I really wanted was the fun, the satisfaction of finishing the Op and - of course - some Conquest Points.

What surprised me was, that I actually got a few pieces off that run! That were handed to me, no less!

A 192 rating Implant Token, a set of gloves, a chestpiece and an offhand. All better whan what I had - though what I mostly needed were the mods in the moddables, tbh, to "optimize" my gear better without losing Accuracy - and all was given to me by the Op Leader, which I never met before either.

 

After finishing the Op without too much trouble, the others actually said I did very well for a first timer. I only had to throw a battlerez twice, the rest was DPSing and avoiding AoEs.

Battlerezzes came on the first pull after the big "dog", when we lost one of our healers, and on Coratanni and Pearl. What have I avoided to do during the Op?

I didn't stand in stupid glowing circles save for Sorc Heal puddles, even though at times the whole floor seemed to be covered on those circles.

I didn't destroy repair droids on the Wookie Boss. I simply avoided AoEing at all when one was up.

Master and Blaster were a breeze aswell, not a hit taken save for when the boss targeted me because of ripping aggro (once, before the Tank taunted off me and I aggro dropped).

Coratanni and Pearl were taken down without too much trouble, though we lost a Sniper which I battlerezzed, I think to a crit or something. She was pretty much oneshot.

I didn't attack Ruger when he was taking a target to transfer the dmg on either, I just topped myself off instead, or bubbled the Tanks.

 

So, feeling hyped right now. Not only I had a chance to run an Op I never got the chance to see before, but I also did decently through it!

Next step: Temple of Sacrifice. (Hopefully) Coming Soon.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Cox_The_Beast

[Lesheren]

When EA can't be bothered to make an FP which can be run by pugs I can't be bothered to rack up 50K in repair bills and wasted time to try to get newbs through it. Sry, thats it - instant drop.

 

Underlurker and BH HM, what were you thinking EA? Bad programming.

 

This is my point. PUGs certainly CAN do this content. I know it's true because I have only ever done BH HM via GF and I've cleared it 4 times, twice before last update. Even PUGs with not-ideal gear, even with sub-par players. Yes, with some practice and especially with some guidance from more experience players in the group....this FP CAN be done!

I've done BH HM once with a group of 1 newbie tank in comms gear, and two madness sorcs dps. Sorcs had 42k hp both: 178-190, no augments, not the highest damaging spec in the game. Me, healer, standing around and doing pretty much nothing, mostly throwing some dots on boss and adds and cleansing tank. We did it 20sec before enrage. Three of us were not even in the guild, so absolutely PUG run. Actually it was my the most facerolling run on this one. The fp was hard before nerf, now it's just a tiny dps check on the 1st boss and even more tiny heal check on the last one, the 2nd boss is nerfed to the ground. All three are absolutely doable.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Lesheren

[venomlash]

Reasons I have seen include "don't want to waste my time" or "other members' gear is not good enough" etc. I think these players have lost site of what they like about this game. Is it not the actual battles and especially boss battles that are the most fun and the reason why we play? I suppose if what you like to do is buy and modify gear, but don't like to actually play with that toon....then yes, playing the game is a "waste" of time.

 

Right on, bro dawg.

I especially like that the first boss of BH HM (Kyramla Gemas'rugam) is a grueling fight that requires good DPS and heads-up awareness, and the next two are relatively easy. You manage to make it through that first PUG-crushing boss, and you have the rest of the FP to exultantly sweep through the remaining mobs, celebrating the fact that you've got a good group this time.

[BobFredJohn]

When EA can't be bothered to make an FP which can be run by pugs I can't be bothered to rack up 50K in repair bills and wasted time to try to get newbs through it. Sry, thats it - instant drop.

 

Underlurker and BH HM, what were you thinking EA? Bad programming.

 

Translation: I want to faceroll everything. If I cannot get through by spamming basic then the game devs have messed up. God forbid that I learn to play my class, learn what the abilities do and sort out a rotation, that's just for the elitists.

 

Sort of reminds me of that DSP gaming channel guy lol.

[power-alex]

Translation: I want to faceroll everything. If I cannot get through by spamming basic then the game devs have messed up. God forbid that I learn to play my class, learn what the abilities do and sort out a rotation, that's just for the elitists.

 

Sort of reminds me of that DSP gaming channel guy lol.

 

that's not what he said at all. He said that one person no matter how good they are can't carry a whole group of bads, so why bother.

 

As for blood hunt I always give my group one chance. If they can't bring furball to 5% at least I leave gracefully.

Edited August 1, 2015 by power-alex

[Gelious]

I've done BH HM once with a group of 1 newbie tank in comms gear, and two madness sorcs dps. Sorcs had 42k hp both: 178-190, no augments, not the highest damaging spec in the game. Me, healer, standing around and doing pretty much nothing, mostly throwing some dots on boss and adds and cleansing tank. We did it 20sec before enrage. Three of us were not even in the guild, so absolutely PUG run. Actually it was my the most facerolling run on this one. The fp was hard before nerf, now it's just a tiny dps check on the 1st boss and even more tiny heal check on the last one, the 2nd boss is nerfed to the ground. All three are absolutely doable.

 

There you go. 2 sorcs. As in ranged class. As in they dont have to worry about always standing next to boss/adds

They only have to run out of AoE and click their abilities. Try it with melee dps then tell us how easy it was.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Gelious

[LydMekk]

that's not what he said at all. He said that one person no matter how good they are can't carry a whole group of bads, so why bother.

 

As for blood hunt I always give my group one chance. If they can't bring furball to 5% at least I leave gracefully.

 

Exactly. I never meant to come out as a *****, but very often it's me doing the heavy lifting and carrying groups in FPs and BH with its small success rate isn't something to spend time in IMO. If they have nerfed it hard recently I will have to try again. Founder, been here since beta so for my own part I know what I'm doing in diff. roles in FPs.

[power-alex]

There you go. 2 sorcs. As in ranged class. As in they dont have to worry about always standing next to boss/adds

They only have to run out of AoE and click their abilities. Try it with melee dps then tell us how easy it was.

 

I do over 4kdps on furball on marauder, it's easy

[Lesheren]

Exactly. I never meant to come out as a *****, but very often it's me doing the heavy lifting and carrying groups in FPs and BH with its small success rate isn't something to spend time in IMO. If they have nerfed it hard recently I will have to try again. Founder, been here since beta so for my own part I know what I'm doing in diff. roles in FPs.

 

Did it on my guardian, in 186 w/out set. 3400 dps, it was not easy, but we learn to run out of circles in Esseles and Black Talon, so nothing new

[benficakungfu]

Last night, TFP Kuat Drive Yards.

leveling my Sage Healer (lvl 42), a gunslinger (lvl 17), a sentinel (lvl 38) a guardian tank (lvl 18).

There we are, just going through to the prisoner area and the Tank runs left, so I follow as does the Sent. The slinger goes the other way, straight into the champion droid. Shoots at it, gets knocked off the platform and dies as landed near 2 mobs. We defeat the other droid (elite), the tank runs forward, throwing heals left right and center and kill the mobs but eventually, I'm out of force, unable to keep the tank and sent up and we all die.

Over chat the slinger says to me "what role are you supposed to be?", so respond with healer. He then says "learn your role, you are a crap healer".

Obviously this gets my goat, especially after keeping the sent and guardian up, kill most of the mobs and then get taken out by the droid. So I respond with "you expect me to follow you because you aggro the droid, all those mobs and I should keep you up?

He says a good healer can keep us all up.

From the other side of the room where i can't reach you?

Anyway, after his tirade, he went on ignore, got no heals, died 7 times (had to be rez'd by the other 2) and we completed the fp with no other deaths.

Was I a bast**d? Yes probably.

Took him off ignore, hope to see him in some more runs for more of the same

 

Ok so you really are crap, not just yours heals rofl.

[LudhaninRolgge]

There you go. 2 sorcs. As in ranged class. As in they dont have to worry about always standing next to boss/adds

They only have to run out of AoE and click their abilities. Try it with melee dps then tell us how easy it was.

 

I did it a good number of time with my shadow... Yeah it's a rough DPS check for people who roll their face on their keyboard, but everyone that is decent to his class should have no big problems.

[midianlord]

When EA can't be bothered to make an FP which can be run by pugs I can't be bothered to rack up 50K in repair bills and wasted time to try to get newbs through it. Sry, thats it - instant drop.

 

Underlurker and BH HM, what were you thinking EA? Bad programming.

 

No, not bad programming.

 

(Quality-control is another matter entirely, but I digress...)

 

Bad community, completely unworthy of good/challenging content, exacerbated by even the best of us becoming far too used to total faceroll for far too long in the latter half of 2.XX.

[Grayseven]

Three of us guildies at level 60 were queuing for Lost Island HM during the Rakghoul event.

 

We got a Knight, level 51 I believe...just remember it was pretty close to the level of the FP...who immediately took off like he knew what he was doing so we chuckled in Vent and followed him.

 

I was healing and the tank and dps from my guild were also part of our Progression group so we were geared well enough that we weren't worried too much.

 

This guy apparently decided to test our abilities to the fullest. His health was low...really low and upon inspection I saw that he was still in gear ranging from a level 20's ear piece to the highest piece being a 50 blue implant. No relics and maybe a third of his pieces were actually strength pieces.

 

No amount of trying to chat with the guy worked so we took it as a personal challenge to get this guy through LI.

 

I think he thought it was a tac because he kept jumping in ahead of the tank and no amount of healing from me was keeping him alive. We'd try, but at the end of nearly every fight I was rezzing him.

 

After dying through all of the trash and two boss fights he finally put in chat in all caps "YOU GUYS SUCK" and quit group. Not really sure if trolling or just clueless.

[Danylia]

After sitting in queue for a while (DPS) and enduring some expires and declines, we finally get a pop, it's Battle of Rishi HM. I zone in and witness the following conversation:

<Tank> hi there

<Tank> we cant do this with a 35k hp healer

<Tank> unless you're in pvp gear

<Healer> nope

 

At this point I inspect the healer and find out they are outfitted in combination of Green 162 and 168 mods. The conversation continues

<Tank> why do you even queue with so little hp?

<Healer> are you on your period, i just pinged (???, I guess they meant "I just hit level 60")

<Tank> anyways good luck

*<Tank> left the group*

<Healer> *censored*

And of course, the group disbands pretty fast.

 

Now, this may not be anything really unusual. However, my question is: why the tank didn't instead vote to kick the healer? (I'd gladly support the vote, possibly with a polite whisper to the healer why they have no place in level 60 HM FP)

I understand it means little for the tank, who most likely will get next group as soon as the GF lockout expires, but it was quite disappointing for me (and I guess for the other DPS too) given the consequences ...

[midianlord]

After sitting in queue for a while (DPS) and enduring some expires and declines, we finally get a pop,

 

[...]

 

<Tank> anyways good luck

*<Tank> left the group*

<Healer> *censored*

And of course, the group disbands pretty fast.

 

Now, this may not be anything really unusual.

 

[...]

 

 

Actually, this sort of crap is all too common, almost always courtesy of the tank.

 

It's why one of my favourite homilies --or, given its frequency of use, maybe I should say clichés-- is "It takes a special kind of ******e to be a tank."

 

These immature, selfish little children know that they can hold up to 15 other people hostage sheerly by dint of that little purple shield under their portrait, and they know that they can get away with doing so whenever they want, almost without consequence.

 

Have you /ignored a tank recently for being a useless bad/ninja/social retard/whatever, and you play DPS or heals?

 

I have many times on general principle --I deal with enough loud-mouthed, entitled, self-important insignific**ts IRL, I will not bloody well tolerate it in a service I pay for, done for supposed fun-- but I am well aware that I am ultimately screwing myself in the long run.

 

And more to the point, they know this too.

 

It takes a special kind of ******e to be a tank.

Edited August 2, 2015 by midianlord