"Master CraftsMan" Legacy_Title needs a Gender Neutral change...

[swtonewbie]

Do you really expect people to fall for that feeble attempt to apply the "slippery slope" excuse to my tiny request? Well, following your reasoning, why not apply it to every suggestion in the forums? even yours if any; gosh, we may as well just delete all the player suggestions and comments right now! Perhaps you could post that as a new suggestion

 

First off, you can lose the attitude. People can post their suggestions all they want. I dont care about how PC it is or how offensive some may find it or any of that. What i do care about, which i have demonstrated several times in this thread and probably in several other threads, is how a good suggestion could have the potential to affect other portions of game development. I gave an example of this in my first post, World of Warcraft focused too much on reworking old content instead of creating new content when Cataclysm was first released. People even posted on the WoW forums sources where Devs admitted to this and how it may have been a contributing factor in the decline of subs in Cata. Most people dont think about the bigger picture, they just want what they want and screw everything else. People dont stop to think that the addition of a guild ship or guild hall could mean that there will be 1 less operation instance in the next content push. They dont stop to think that the request for 1 tiny little title change could cause BW to change all titles and everything to become gender neutral or gender specific.

 

The idea you have is actually a good one, and something i see BW taking up. But i also forsee them expanding upon it to make everyone in the gender neutrality PC crowd happy. but it could very well be that they take the easy way and do just this one thing (which i doubt will happen). But again, they could also expand upon it like i was talking about making your tiny request a big request. Did you know that there have been threads in the past about issues with the VO dialogue being only specific to males. Your one 'tiny' request and all those past complaints about VO dialogue may have been posted in separate threads several weeks/months apart, but they are still about the same subject. So i guess there it is...today it was you with mastercraftsman title, a couple of weeks/months ago it was somebody and sir/ma'am in VO dialogue.

 

Having said all that, i'm curious why are you only wanting the title changed and not VO dialogue options? from all your posts i figured that gender neutrality in all aspects of the game was something you would have wanted. Or do you only pick easy fights that you know you can win? Don't try to take that as an insult, take it for what it is.

Edited May 13, 2013 by swtonewbie

[Estelindis]

Having said all that, i'm curious why are you only wanting the title changed and not VO dialogue options? from all your posts i got the feeling that gender neutrality in all aspects of the game was something you felt strongly about. Or do you only pick easy fights that you know you can win? Don't try to take that as an insult, take it for what it is.

I can't speak for the OP, but I would like my title to read differently when it's over my character because it's how I present myself to other people. I don't want to present myself as a man! I think it's worth posting about because it's a small change that I expect wouldn't be difficult to handle. I also think that most other titles aren't particularly masculine - I mean here the titles that display over characters, not the ones in VO.

 

Ultimately I think that the substitutes for the character name that are used in VO are generally fine. There always has to be something that's used instead of the PC's name in these fully (well, mostly) voiced games. The only one that really stands out is Lord for male and female sith, and I thought that was lore-consistent. Correct me if this is mistaken, please! So yeah, it seems fairly okay. And even if it wasn't, it would take a huge amount of resources to change, so much that I don't think it could be justified. Changing title text is way more manageable, so in this case I don't see why one wouldn't pick a "fight" one is more likely to win (not that I see it as a fight, it's just a suggestion).

 

Interesting comments on how only so many suggestions can be implemented, of course, but I trust the devs' judgement to pick the ones that will impact the playerbase most positively.

[Likomg]

I would ask less for the title to be made neutral and more for it to be made gender sensitive, like Flyboy/Flygirl. I would like my title to read as Master Craftswoman when I am playing my female characters. It always feels a bit weird for me to display "Craftsman" over a woman.

 

Regarding all this talk of remaking language in a PC mold, I wouldn't be in favour of all of it. But people should be aware of the power of language to form images and how those images inform views about what's standard, normal, or archetypal. Ask yourself, when someone says the word "mankind," does an image of a woman pop into your head before an image of a man? Probably not. Yet many people claim that this is a perfectly appropriate "gender neutral" term. Think about it.

 

I find it ironic that the PC cries are to change it from Master Craftsman (which IS gender neutral, you are choosing to change the term to fit a PC agenda) to Master Craftswoman. You DO realize that Master is also a masculine term, when taken on it's own? Because what you are doing is separating words from their context in order to fit your so-called insensitivity rather that the entire title in-context. Mistress Craftswoman? Go for it, would be good for laughs imo.

 

As far as what image pops in my mind when someone says "mankind", I see a mass of humanity -- men, women and children (boys and girls, even!) -- not just men OR women. It IS perfectly appropriately gender neutral, it only becomes otherwise when intentionally made to be so.

 

**EDIT** upon further review, huMANity is offensive. We should change that, too... maybe huPEOPLEity would be more considerate of everyone.

 

As far as titles changed for men's sakes, I am perfectly fine with nurse, secretary, etc. -- I see nothing wrong with those terms used for males or females.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Likomg

[Comfterbilly]

The songs, the processions, the banners, the hiking, the drilling with dummy rifles, the yelling of slogans, the worship of Big Brother -- it was all a sort of glorious game to them. All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children. And with good reason, for hardly a week passed in which The Times did not carry a paragraph describing how some eavesdropping little sneak -- 'child hero' was the phrase generally used -- had overheard some compromising remark and denounced its parents to the Thought Police.

 

Such things come to mind, with the word police, these days...

[Comfterbilly]

I find it ironic that the PC cries are to change it from Master Craftsman (which IS gender neutral, you are choosing to change the term to fit a PC agenda) to Master Craftswoman. You DO realize that Master is also a masculine term, when taken on it's own? Because what you are doing is separating words from their context in order to fit your so-called insensitivity rather that the entire title in-context. Mistress Craftswoman? Go for it, would be good for laughs imo.

 

As far as what image pops in my mind when someone says "mankind", I see a mass of humanity -- men, women and children (boys and girls, even!) -- not just men OR women. It IS perfectly appropriately gender neutral, it only becomes otherwise when intentionally made to be so.

 

**EDIT** upon further review, huMANity is offensive. We should change that, too... maybe huPEOPLEity would be more considerate of everyone.

 

As far as titles changed for men's sakes, I am perfectly fine with nurse, secretary, etc. -- I see nothing wrong with those terms used for males or females.

 

Great post. They don't realize by the way. Never mind of course that 'man' is also the root word of 'woman', which makes the word 'craftsman' completely, 100% appropriate to anyone it refers to, male or female.

 

It's not new words they want, but apparently, a whole new species. These kids have rabies.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Estelindis]

you are choosing to change the term to fit a PC agenda

I do not have an agenda. I have a preference. I am not saying it's sexist to make everyone Master Craftsman. I am saying that I would prefer to display my title as Master Craftswoman.

 

I thought that several of your other points were good, though. I'm glad that you see "mankind" as a mass of people. But if I asked you what image came into your head when I said "man," I wonder if a woman would ever arrive before a man. I think at least we can say that "man" is not gender-neutral.

 

EDIT: On reflection, this passage deserves particular attention, so I'll edit it in and then comment.

 

You DO realize that Master is also a masculine term, when taken on it's own? Because what you are doing is separating words from their context in order to fit your so-called insensitivity rather that the entire title in-context. Mistress Craftswoman? Go for it, would be good for laughs imo.

Yes, of course, I realise that Master is a masculine term in some contexts. It can mean the male head of a household or organization. But I would say that in general it is used in a gender-neutral manner today and use of language has to stay current, in keeping with modern usage. Mistress has never been gender neutral. People use "mastery" in a neutral way but no one uses "mistress-ship" in such a way. Also, while the word mistress can be used with various prefixes and in that way is fairly common and without any dodgy connotations, e.g. headmistress, postmistress, I never hear it alone these days unless referring to a woman having an affair or involved in S&M! So, clearly, you are not comparing like with like.

 

Anyway, I am not asking to be called Mistress Craftswoman. I am asking to be called Master Craftswoman. Dislike it all you want. It is the suggestion that I am making. Bioware will listen to it, or not listen, as they see fit. Ditto the suggestion that everyone's title be gender-neutral. Though, frankly, I would have expected less opposition from guys to my version of the idea seeing as it won't lead to any changes for the titles of male characters. If your title stays just how you want it, I don't see why you'd object to other people getting a change if enough ask for it.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Estelindis

[Estelindis]

It's not new words they want, but apparently, a whole new species. These kids have rabies.

Quoted as proof against future re-editing. Such hatred.

[Likomg]

I do not have an agenda. I have a preference. I am not saying it's sexist to make everyone Master Craftsman. I am saying that I would prefer to display my title as Master Craftswoman.

 

I thought that several of your other points were good, though. I'm glad that you see "mankind" as a mass of people. But if I asked you what image came into your head when I said "man," I wonder if a woman would ever arrive before a man. I think at least we can say that "man" is not gender-neutral.

 

They could have avoided all of this just by making the title Master Crafter, from the get go. I think few, if any, would have perceived it as an attempt at political correctness. While I see nothing even remotely insensitive with the current title, this would have likely been acceptable across the board. /shrug

 

As far as what image comes into my head when you say "man", again, context would affect that. But without context, as in "a man" (or does that count as context? Think it might, in which case context is the defining factor in what image presents itself mentally), then I do think "male", yes.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Likomg

[Estelindis]

They could have avoided all of this just by making the title Master Crafter, from the get go. I think few, if any, would have perceived it as an attempt at political correctness. While I see nothing even remotely insensitive with the current title, this would have likely been acceptable across the board. /shrug

 

As far as what image comes into my head when you say "man", again, context would affect that. But without context, as in "a man" (or does that count as context? Think it might, in which case context is the defining factor in what image presents itself mentally), then I do think "male", yes.

Yes, they could have avoided it that way. I agree that it's a happily neutral term. On the other hand, I do think that "Craftsman" sounds way cooler than "Crafter"! But I would prefer my female character to be called the latter than the former, if I had a choice of only those two. I don't know if this is actually consistent of me but I'd hate to deprive men of their Craftsman title if they like it.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with "man" coming immediately to mind. It makes sense! I just ask because it shows that "man" isn't gender-neutral. If it ever was before, it certainly isn't today, and we have to use words as people generally understand them at the moment to have an effective common language.

[Vil-lynne]

I don't know if this is actually consistent of me but I'd hate to deprive men of their Craftsman title if they like it.

I totally agree! Let us all

I wonder why most of the menz would rather get all controlling and rant doomsayer over such triviality.

 

fyi, the following is so off topic... *attempts to stifle a giggle*

Hail, sister [the Godwin's law N-word]...

Well, hello there, brother... I appreciate you choosing not to "eradicate my [gender] distinction"; and so, 'favor returned, brother! Unfortunately for us, I wonder if our hero the big H-man (ah, see how I just helped us take another step in our "Godwin's law" journey? oh, you're welcome ) would have approved of our recognition of gender, nor my admiration of the Jewish culture/race (even though I am not one; well, as far as I'm aware *ponders*) or my researched conclusion that: Germany, by forbidding German-Jewish people from owning real property (ie. land) for nearly ~2000 years, unintentionally administered perhaps the longest running and largest man-made eugenics program in recorded human history. This "program" excluded German-Jewish people from intellectually stimulating commoner careers such as farming and collecting rent. Instead, they were given other choices: let their families starve; leave the country; get a common job (which may permit a single person to survive); or, fully embrace their "barter culture" roots and use their wits to make enough money off of others in order to raise a nice family. The latter option of "successful competitors winning greater reproduction opportunity" pleases Mother Nature, and she rewarded the winners with (un?)Natural Selection of the body part(s) used to win - the mind (as this was a mental competition, and it was un(?)naturally imposed by man). I'm afraid my musings on the subject would have enraged the big H-man (as embarrassing truths hurt the most), by suggesting that his people unintentionally bred the master race, and that.. ah! it was not themselves!! Oh my! The dreadful fear he must have felt at that revelation, that his race unwittingly brought about their own marginalization. Had the "thought police" uncovered my unpatriotic ponderings, it surely would have led to my untimely and permanent disappearance. I hope that our little confessions to each other, about each of us failing to live up to our hero's standards, was a bonding moment between us, and that it hasn't sullied your esteemed opinion of me, brother...

Edited May 13, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[Maullum]

Now, just for fun *smiles*, let's list some examples of job title differences due, at least in part, to the fragile male ego: secretary->office assistant , nurse->male nurse , cook->chef, flight attendant, and many more (I'll google them later and update when I have some free time).

 

Most of those have absolutely nothing to do with the male ego. No self respecting nurse will call himself a "male nurse", that's a derogatory term. In addition, as someone who works in the healthcare industry, I hear more women mocking men as "male nurses", while the majority of men I see, just don't care either way. That being said that is only one case, but NO, male nurse has nothing to do with the "male ego". Suggesting such is rude, and sexist itself.

 

As for flight attendant, both men and women (more women than men as women comprised a larger component of flight attendants) wanted the name change. The previous (flight steward/stewardess), was considered insulting, and slavish, and now, again, is a derogatory term. Again, not much to do with the male ego.

 

As for cook and chef, chef was created because people who had formal education in cooking wanted to lord it over those who don't. More of a "Ha, I have education thing" than anything else.

 

In short, maybe you should do your research, and next time you refer to the "male ego", you ask yourself if you'd be okay with people saying that all this was due to your "female ego". Sexism isn't only when men put down women.

 

As for your actual "suggestion", email the devs (I believe the address is somewhere in this thread), as this really isn't the place for it in my opinion, and for my two cents: Craftsman refers equally to both genders (as "man" was first used to describe the human race as a whole, then to describe males as leaders thought themselves, as men, the true representation of their race), Craftsperson isn't a word, and just sounds weird, Crafter doesn't have the same "umph", but Artisan has my vote. That is a good title.

 

Though I will say this, if it was changed to Craftsman/Craftswoman, you'd likely see a huge amount of people complaining about it because it separates the two genders rather than unifies them.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Maullum

[Maullum]

Forgot to add, I like it the way it is, but really don't care either way. It's a title. If I don't like it, I won't use it. Again though, my vote goes to Master Artisan if there is a name change. A different title to each gender just doesn't seem right to me.

 

EDIT:

But that's where you're wrong. No offense, but you're a guy, right? And being a guy, it often makes you 'blind' to the whole issue. It's not a problem for you, as you see what you want to see. You don't pay attention to the real issue here. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But think about it like this: How many important asian characters are there in this game? Or black people? Have you even paid attention to it? Most non-asian and non-black people don't even notice it at all, as they have no reason to. But as a female, I easily notice how few important women there are here. There are a few, yes, but they are mostly hidden in the background.

 

So being a man makes us blind now. Great. Why is it when people say "no offence," they actually mean "suck this meatbag!". Ugh. And no, being a man doesn't make me blind to the issue. Also, my skin colour is brown. You know how many important brown people there are in ALL of Star Wars? Almost none. I don't complain about that, or say "my race is UNDER-REPRESENTED!" Suggesting the devs sit there and count out all the important men and the important women and tally them, or that they should is ludicrous. The writers write an outline, add characters, then say "Hmm... he sounds like a man", or "This, this is woman". They pick genders to match the characters in their heads. They don't choose to have white men in their storylines, thats what their imagination comes up with, and they have no control over that. I hardly fault them. If I want an important brown character, I'll make my hero brown. Suddenly he's/she's hugely important. It's how RPGing works.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Maullum

[beefyandbeef]

Well, hello there, brother... I appreciate you choosing not to "eradicate my [gender] distinction"; and so, 'favor returned, brother! Unfortunately for us, I doubt our hero "the big H-man" (ah, see how I just helped us take another step in our "Godwin's law" journey? oh, you're welcome ) would have approved of your recognition of gender, nor my admiration for the Jewish culture/race (even though I am not one; well, as far as I'm aware *ponders*) and my researched conclusion: that Germany, by forbidding German-Jewish people from owning real property (ie. land) for nearly ~2000 years, unintentionally administeried perhaps the longest running and largest man-made eugenics program in recorded human history. This "program" excluded German-Jewish people from intellectually stimulating careers such as farming and collecting rent. Instead, they were given other choices: let their families starve, leave the country, get a common job (which may permit a single person to survive), or fully embrace their "barter culture" and use their wits to make enough money off of others in order to raise a nice family. The latter option of "successful competitors winning greater reproduction opportunity" pleases Mother Nature, and she rewarded the winners with (un)Natural Selection of the mind (as this was a mental competition, unnaturally imposed by man). I'm afraid my thoughts on the subject would have enraged the big H-man, suggesting that "his people" unintentionally "bred the master race", and that.. it wasn't them! Oh my! The dreadful fear he must have felt at the realization that his race may have unwittingly brought about their own marginalization. My musings would surely have led to my untimely demise. I hope that our little confessions to each other, about each of us failing to live up to our hero's standards, was a bonding moment between us and that it hasn't sullied your esteemed opinion of me, brother...

 

Help! The wall....of text... is FALLING ON ME!!! *swish*

[SuperGrunt]

I can't speak for the OP, but I would like my title to read differently when it's over my character because it's how I present myself to other people. I don't want to present myself as a man! I think it's worth posting about because it's a small change that I expect wouldn't be difficult to handle. I also think that most other titles aren't particularly masculine - I mean here the titles that display over characters, not the ones in VO.

 

Ultimately I think that the substitutes for the character name that are used in VO are generally fine. There always has to be something that's used instead of the PC's name in these fully (well, mostly) voiced games. The only one that really stands out is Lord for male and female sith, and I thought that was lore-consistent. Correct me if this is mistaken, please! So yeah, it seems fairly okay. And even if it wasn't, it would take a huge amount of resources to change, so much that I don't think it could be justified. Changing title text is way more manageable, so in this case I don't see why one wouldn't pick a "fight" one is more likely to win (not that I see it as a fight, it's just a suggestion).

 

Interesting comments on how only so many suggestions can be implemented, of course, but I trust the devs' judgement to pick the ones that will impact the playerbase most positively.

 

So what about those who play female characters and don't mind the "Master Craftsman" title, but would be offended by being forced to use a "Master Craftswoman" title? As one is not gender specific "Master Craftsman" and one is "Master Craftswoman" why should you have to impose your will upon me. I will be earning this title, why should my female characters be forced to display your dictatorial eradication of a gender neutral term? You only think about yourself and not of the whole community. There are already gender specific titles that you can display in the game that make sense, while in this case the gender neutral version makes the most sense as it is grammatically correct. Quite honestly this would be a case of a vocal minority getting their way instead of the silent majority. There are 2 maybe 3 people actually supporting changing the title, and far more people opposed in this thread, therefore democratically it would be best to leave it as is, also it would be you imposing your will upon others who would be happier with the title as is in the game right now. Please consider that you are not the only one playing this game, and realize that in this case you have lost the argument to the majority with a legitimate basis for their reasoning.

 

*EDIT*

I forgot to mention that Master Artisan and Master Crafter where titles in Star Wars Galaxies, as I don't know the exact wording of the contract between SOE & Lucas Arts I am not even sure that those would be acceptable alternatives that wouldn't open up a slew of legal paperwork needing to be filed.

Edited May 13, 2013 by SuperGrunt

[Estelindis]

I will be earning this title, why should my female characters be forced to display your dictatorial eradication of a gender neutral term? You only think about yourself and not of the whole community. There are already gender specific titles that you can display in the game that make sense, while in this case the gender neutral version makes the most sense as it is grammatically correct. Quite honestly this would be a case of a vocal minority getting their way instead of the silent majority. There are 2 maybe 3 people actually supporting changing the title, and far more people opposed in this thread, therefore democratically it would be best to leave it as is.

Firstly, this is my personal preference. If more people prefer differently, so be it. I'm not asking for a minority to win over a majority, only stating what I would like. Those in charge can tot up the votes, but only if people vote for how they'd want things rather than imagining how others would want them. If this meets your definition of dictator, well, that's a separate word dispute.

 

Secondly, I would be very surprised if the majority of people posting against this idea were women.

 

Thirdly, anyone can assume that the "silent majority" is on their side. It's not a valid argument for you or me, but I'm not making it. I only speak for myself.

 

Good day!

Edited May 13, 2013 by Estelindis

[Estelindis]

I forgot to mention that Master Artisan and Master Crafter where titles in Star Wars Galaxies, as I don't know the exact wording of the contract between SOE & Lucas Arts I am not even sure that those would be acceptable alternatives that wouldn't open up a slew of legal paperwork needing to be filed.

Are you serious? LucasArts have copyrighted Master Artisan and Master Crafter, really? A slew of legal paperwork, when there has been no problem calling people plenty of other titles that I'd be surprised not to have found in Galaxies (e.g. Darth, Lord, Captain, Jedi - I didn't play Galaxies, I am only guessing)? Surely you are reaching here. You have better arguments than this at your fingertips - don't scrape the bottom of the barrel!

Edited May 13, 2013 by Estelindis

[Twin]

Are you serious? LucasArts have copyrighted Master Artisan and Master Crafter, really? A slew of legal paperwork, when there has been no problem calling people plenty of other titles that I'd be surprised not to have found in Galaxies (e.g. Darth, Lord, Captain, Jedi - I didn't play Galaxies, I am only guessing)? Surely you are reaching here. You have better arguments than this at your fingertips - don't scrape the bottom of the barrel!

 

There were no Darth, Lord or Captain titles in SWG. You could display the undertitle Captain, but that was your actual military rank . (And only if you were at that specific rank, there was decay on your rank - you had to pvp to keep it up)

 

Jedi was a title rebels could chose to display at max level, but not Jedi Master.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Twin

[Vil-lynne]

Help! The wall....of text... is FALLING ON ME!!! *swish*

Ha , well I did forewarn that the "wall of text" was off topic (implying: optional) ... perhaps written merely to amuse myself, confound the RE: and provoke thought... Oh, and I hope you escaped that falling crash unscathed *apologizes*

Edited May 17, 2013 by Vil-lynne

[beefyandbeef]

Ha , well I did forewarn that the "wall of text" was off topic (implying optional) ... perhaps written merely to amuse myself, confuse the RE:, and provoke thought... Oh, and I hope you survived that falling crash unscathed *apologizes*

I hope you've learned your lesson.... I COULD HAVE DIED!

 

Well, anyway, apology accepted...

[Planar]

..... and while your at it don't forget to rename manhole covers as personhole covers.

 

It isn't a title stating MEN must do the profession, it is merely a job titled after original crafters who happened to be men. I know many female craftsmen who aren't threatened by a simple title.

 

Definition of craftsman:

Craftsman may refer to:

Artisan, a skilled manual worker who makes items that may be functional or strictly decorative

Master craftsman, an artisan who practices a handicraft or trade

Craft, the profession of a craftsman

 

It clearly does not say a skilled man, OH wait I forgot MANUAL contains the word man to, so they should change that to read a skilled physical labor worker.

 

Things like these is why other countries laugh at us and make fun of us, in fact my opening line about the manhole covers is from a English comedians act about how its HIP to be PC in America.

 

Im sorry I hope the devs do nothing more laugh off this post, the day my title changes I wont be in hear whining about it, I think it is a waste of space to complain about such trivial meaningless stuff.

[Planar]

That term would best be used in medieval games rather than a futuristic setting.

 

Keep in mind this is over 3,000 years ago, let alone bickering over what to call someones job "Meat Hunter" was popular as was "berry gatherer"

Edited May 13, 2013 by Planar

[Planar]

secretary->office assistant , nurse->male nurse , cook->chef, flight attendant, and many more (I'll google them later and update when I have some free time).

 

I know over 12 male nurses, all use the title nurse, NONE of them say male nurse so I asked one who has been doing it for almost 20 years and he said "hospitals did that when they desperately needed more nurses and by placing the special incentives for "male nurses" they hoped increase the available trained nurses coming into the work force.

 

Cooks and Chefs are COMPLETELY different things, the guy at Olive Garden who makes your meal is a cook, the guy who came up with how that meal came together is a Chef. That's like saying the people that build an iPhone are the same as the people who originally put the prototype together.

 

Flight attendant was all about equal pay, originally you had stewards and then stewardess, the big problem was most steward had been working for railways for years before the airlines needed someone so most stewards were paid more, then later a brand new steward with less experience than a stewardess for airlines was paid more because of that original setup. Pan Am changed it to a single title and the more accurate "Flight Attendant" as really a Steward was a well-known railway term, but very few women where a steward on trains so stewardess instantly because the buzz word for the flight attendants when Pan Am launched its massive campaign around them.

 

I am all for equality, equal pay for equal work, women in combat etc. However to take the name of a profession like Craftsman and change it simply because the word MAN is contained within it I think dishonors the craftsman both women and men. So really if in REAL LIFE you’re not a craftsman then I really don't find any point in your argument.

 

BTW Devs I volunteer, you can put a permanent title over all my male characters that says "Feminist", "Nancy Boy", "Pansy" etc of your choice, guess what I wont care, nor will I ever care about a title in a game being one way or another. Don't like, don't display it, simple and guess what already an option in the game.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Planar

[YoshiRaphElan]

Ever watched Star Trek? Every time they talked to Captain Kathryn Janeway, they greeted her with either "captain" or "ma'am". No sir there.

 

But on the flip-side of that, Saavik and Uhura weren't called Miss, they were called "Mr. Saavik" and "Mr. Uhura."

[Planar]

So what about those who play female characters and don't mind the "Master Craftsman" title, but would be offended by being forced to use a "Master Craftswoman" title?

 

Oh Lord if they do this I can see us earning The Master Crafter and The Classic master Craftsman titles for the same achievement.

[Comfterbilly]

Oh Lord if they do this I can see us earning The Master Crafter and The Classic master Craftsman titles for the same achievement.

 

One title for each bo..oob.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Comfterbilly