Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[branmakmuffin]

This is exactly how I feel about all this, it's not the even the cathar specifically I'm worried about, it's that the new standard for SWTOR content charges even subs for basic features.

Name one basic feature subs have to pay CC for.

 

Nope, I sub because I enjoy the game for the most part. That doesnt mean I cant criticize what I dont like. On the same token, you dont have to defend every single thing this company does, just because you like the game. This company does milk people to play their game. You cannot deny this. If you really do not think you are getting milked then you have no value for money.

They charge money, one way or the other, to play the game. How is that "milking?" Does a gas station "milk" its customers because it charges money for gas and then offers to sell them Red Bulls for an additional fee?

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Soluss]

 

Completely nonsequitur to the discussion here Soluss. Also a very inaccurate analogy.

 

A better analogy would be:

You purchase a new car from a dealer. As an incentive to buy from them instead of Joe Auto Dealer down the street...the dealer gives you $500 in vouchers for free service in their auto center. They are yours.. free.. no strings attached other then the actual car purchase. What, when, and how you choose to spend those vouchers is completely up to you since you own them now. The only restriction is they must be used at their auto-center and they are non-transferable. The dealer even says you can purchse cool new trim for your car with those vouchers.. trim other people have to pay real cash for....as long as you buy it from their part center that is attached to the auto center.

 

Why would a car dealer do this? For the same reason other companies do similar things.. to incentivize you to buy product, to reward you from said purchase, and to tie the incentive into their other business to encourage you to shop and buy from then even more. Bioware is doing the same with their subscription incentives where you get 500+ FREE coins with each month you subscribe.

 

First of all, I am going to point something out to you. You do not seem to realize that people are entitled to their own opinion of how EAWare works. You seem to think that you have the answers for everything and that everything this company does is ok. Let me tell you something Andryah, I have no ill will towards you. You are entitled to your opinion just as is everyone else. You are obviously highly educated so you must realize that you are arguing against opinion.

 

Noones opinion is right or wrong. Its their opinion on how they feel the company is handling their business. For everything that ToR does right, the company does something wrong. Atleast some people were percieve it to be wrong. You, Andyah are not correct. You are not correct because you cannot tell people that their opinion on this matter is wrong just because you think everything is fine. Everyone on these forums knows that you are a biodefender through and through. Im not trying to label you here but its the easiest way to say it. In your forum manner, this company can do no wrong, even if it is wrong.

 

I will also point out that your analogy is also incorrect. You see, for it to be correct then everyone else would have to get the car for free and pay maybe one a week to use the stereo and the power windows. Biowares game is pretty much completely free to every minus some convieniences. In the car situation, those conviences would be things like power window, ac, cruise control, cd player etc. People can still drive the car for free. I know you think these coins they give us every month are free but the fact is, they are not. We pay for them every month. They are not an added bonus they are actually part of a subscription price. In essense we pay for them in one form or another because its part of the package. You do not recieve them without paying. That right there makes them not free. If you know business as well as you think you do you would know this. Deep down you do but you cant go a day without defending EAware.

[zzoorrzz]

Name one basic feature subs have to pay CC for.

 

 

They charge money, one way or the other, to play the game. How is that "milking?" Does a gas station "milk" its customers because it charges money for gas and then offers to sell them Red Bulls for an additional fee?

 

Some people evidently feel that new race and character customization is more like gas than red bull, applied to MMO. Agree or disagree, that opinion is legit.

[Soluss]

Name one basic feature subs have to pay CC for.

 

 

They charge money, one way or the other, to play the game. How is that "milking?" Does a gas station "milk" its customers because it charges money for gas and then offers to sell them Red Bulls for an additional fee?

 

If you dont see the milking then I cannot help you. Its aweful funny that this company had a hard time adding different types of gear and fun mounts to obtain but the second they found a way to charge for it, by going F2P, it became an easy thing to do. Expansions in the form of DLC, monthly and sometimes weekly updates to cartel market, sought after items that you need to gamble for. Instead of adding a race, that I guarentee was finished long ago, to the expansion.... they release it weeks later so they can not only charge extra for it but call it a content update. Content update that will cost cartel coins for every feature they listed thus far..... thats called milking to me man. If you enjoy spending extra thats fine, but I dont.

 

Other MMOs dont charge for barbershop feature but they do here. IMO that is enough to call it milking.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Soluss

[branmakmuffin]

[...]In your forum manner, this company can do no wrong, even if it is wrong.

Do you see what you are doing here? You are saying some of the things BWEA does is wrong because why, because you say they're wrong? If Andryah is the kettle on this, you're the pot.

 

Although we are eye-to-eye on the "CC are not free" thing.

 

Some people evidently feel that new race and character customization is more like gas than red bull, applied to MMO.

So you need to be able to customize your character to play the game fully the same way you need gas to run a car. Do you even process what you write?

 

Agree or disagree, that opinion is legit.

If some people feel that way, then it's not a basic feature, it's a desired option. Who wouldn't want more of a product without having to pay more money for it? Dyeing your character's armor or changing its hairstyle are not even close to "basic features" in MMOs.

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Soluss]

Do you see what you are doing here? You are saying some of the things BWEA does is wrong because why, because you say they're wrong? If Andryah is the kettle on this, you're the pot.

 

Although we are eye-to-eye on the "CC are not free" thing.

 

So you're saying this company has done no wrong in anything they have done. I made a broad statement. Sure, I could have worded it better. IMO they have done wrong on some things. In the same token, IMO, they have done right on some things too. Thats the thing, opinions are never right or wrong. I feel they have done wrong.

[branmakmuffin]

So you're saying this company has done no wrong in anything they have done.

Is mischaracterizing your hobby, or is today a special celebration? You said that BWEA makes wrong decisions. Every entity makes bad decisions. But just because you label a particular decision "bad" does not mean it's bad.

 

I made a broad statement. Sure, I could have worded it better. IMO they have done wrong on some things. In the same token, IMO, they have done right on some things too. Thats the thing, opinions are never right or wrong. I feel they have done wrong.

And they have bad decisions, no doubt about it (I think it's a bad decision to not allow RotHC to be bought with CC). But, yeah, your wording, given that it was in response to someone you characterized as a BWEA cheerleader, came across as rather ironic.

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Cupelixx]

Some people (and this has nothing to do with cats) seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge that it's possible to enjoy the game despite the fact that it has room for improvement.

 

 

These "unlocks" you speak of have nothing to do with being able to adventure in the game. You can go from 1 to 50 without spending an additional dime of real money or CC. The CM items are pure convenience and cosmetic. And just about everything in the achievement trees is unlockable with a combination of creds plus a high enough legacy and/or social levels.

 

That's exactly the point people are making. We are already paying a sub, so why are additional features (even cosmetic ones) suddenly being restricted to CC only? It feels like they are trying to compel us to spend CC so we are enticed to buy more to spend on "fluff". Are we on the road to paid content updates? Because at that point, your monthly CC is a requirement and not a gift. That's what people are worried about. If that happens, it becomes less "use them on what you want" and more "use them all for content". Personally, I don't give a rat's *** about a new race and I'm not likely to unlock it. I just don't like the possible implications for how future content updates will be handled.

[Soluss]

Is mischaracterizing your hobby, or is today a special celebration? You said that BWEA makes wrong decisions. Every entity makes bad decisions. But just because you label a particular decision "bad" does not mean it's bad.

 

And they have bad decisions, no doubt about it (I think it's a bad decision to not allow RotHC to be bought with CC). But, yeah, your wording, given that it was in response to someone you characterized as a BWEA cheerleader, came across as rather ironic.

 

In bold is your contradiction. My point is that the company has made some bad decisions and that even if a bad decision is made Andryah feels the need to defend it as if its ok. Its not ok.

[branmakmuffin]

That's exactly the point people are making. We are already paying a sub, so why are additional features (even cosmetic ones) suddenly being restricted to CC only? It feels like they are trying to compel us to spend CC so we are enticed to buy more to spend on "fluff".

Compel us? Are so many TOR subs weak-minded children who can't resist spending CC on shinies? Seriously, if someone can't say no to convenience and cosmetic items, perhaps they shouldn't have credit cards.

 

Are we on the road to paid content updates? Because at that point, your monthly CC is a requirement and not a gift. That's what people are worried about. If that happens, it becomes less "use them on what you want" and more "use them all for content". Personally, I don't give a rat's *** about a new race and I'm not likely to unlock it. I just don't like the possible implications for how future content updates will be handled.

They're not going to charge CC for anything which was historically included pre-F2P. That is the point at which lots of people would stop playing.

 

In bold is your contradiction.

Not even close. Whether or not a particular decision is bad is a matter of opinion.

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[zzoorrzz]

So you need to be able to customize your character to play the game fully the same way you need gas to run a car. Do you even process what you write?

As mentioned above by somebody (or was it other thread) - running this car (game), driving it, is free in this game. That's what F2P do. We don't pay sub for the gas, that's free here.

Edited April 28, 2013 by zzoorrzz

[Soluss]

I will further input my stance on the subject.... The last "6-8 week content update", which are suppose to be free for subscribers, was an "expansion" that we had to pay for. The next "6-8 week content update", which are suppose to be free for subscribers, is customization which people will have to pay to utilize whats in it. See a trend here? I do, its a trend thats showing they want to add more and more and more to get people to pay more and more and more. This is what I call milking. So when is the next "6-8 week content update", that is suppose to be free for subscribers, going to come? I mean something that we dont have to pay extra for.... and I dont mean with the "free" cartel coins.

[Soluss]

Compel us? Are so many TOR subs weak-minded children who can't resist spending CC on shinies? Seriously, if someone can't say no to convenience and cosmetic items, perhaps they shouldn't have credit cards.

 

 

They're not going to charge CC for anything which was historically included pre-F2P. That is the point at which lots of people would stop playing.

 

 

Not even close. Whether or not a particular decision is bad is a matter of opinion.

 

Considering that a good 80% of the updating is now cartel market (yes I pulled that ought of my rear but im sure its close) shineys is what people do in this game.

[branmakmuffin]

As mentioned above by somebody (or was it other thread) - running this car (game), driving it, is free in this game. That's what F2P do. We don't pay sub for the gas, that's free here.

The "gas" is "adventuring content," You can't play the game without adventuring content, just like you can't drive a car without gas. The analogy isn't perfect because no gas station gives away gas to some customers in the hopes that others will pay for it or in the hopes that some of the customers who get free gas will buy Red Bulls.

 

Considering that a good 80% of the updating is now cartel market (yes I pulled that ought of my rear but im sure its close) shineys is what people do in this game.

You pulled it out of your butt but you're sure it's close. Are you trolling now? If people can't resist shinies, that's on them, not BWEA. Of course BWEA counts a high number of folks being in the ADHD-gotta-have-it-now-it's-really-cool-and-shiny demographic.

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Soluss]

The "gas" is "adventuring content," You can't play the game without adventuring content, just like you can't drive a car without gas. The analogy isn't perfect because no gas station gives away gas to some customers in the hopes that others will pay for it or in the hopes that some of the customers who get free gas will buy Red Bulls.

 

 

You pulled it out of your butt but you're sure it's close. Are you trolling now? If people can't resist shinies, that's on them, not BWEA.

 

Most of the updating happens to the cartel market. Alot of the new gear, mounts and other toys are in the cartel market and half of those are by gambling boxes. It is mostly the only new this game gets. There have been new ops and there have been new daily areas. They dont last very long and alot of people dont do ops. So where do they get their shineys? The cartel market. MMOs revolve around new shineys and most of those are in the market, in case you dont get it.

[branmakmuffin]

Most of the updating happens to the cartel market. Alot of the new gear, mounts and other toys are in the cartel market and half of those are by gambling boxes. It is mostly the only new this game gets. There have been new ops and there have been new daily areas. They dont last very long and alot of people dont do ops. So where do they get their shineys? The cartel market. MMOs revolve around new shineys and most of those are in the market, in case you dont get it.

MMOs revolve around adventuring content, in case you don't get that. TOR does have a lot of replayability because of the class story lines, but they will have to put out more adventuring content or people will stop playing the game. Very few will stay just so they can dye their characters' armor and get them new haircuts. Now the new adventuring content may be "free" (if it's small) or it may cost real $ (if it's big), but at no point will it be gated behind the CM for subs.

Edited April 28, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Makillda]

If you sub to WoW, even if you didn't buy Mists of Pandaland, you have access to the Pandaren race. I believe they even stopped requiring you to have The Burning Crusade to make Draenai and Blood Elf characters. You also have access to the barber shop, where you can change almost every appearance feature of your toon for in-game currency. All of this is included in your subscription fee.

 

If you sub to DCUO, in addition to your monthly stipend of Station Cash, you have access to every DLC for free. All of them added new powers (classes) or features (lairs for your toon, instances, gear sets, etc) and your subscription fee gets you access to all of it. For "free." They're up to 6 with a 7th coming out in a couple of weeks. And I'll get access to the new power and all of the other content in that DLC for no more than my subscription fee.

 

Rift has a barber shop as well as armor dyes available for in-game currency, all included with your subscription fee.

 

I cancelled my sub in mid-December because I was pissed about the Life Day cash grab and the ship part debacle. I never even considered coming back until my guildies finally tempted me back. I was told that the CM had toned down and there was an actual event in-game that didn't require any cash to take part in. I resubbed and bought ROTHC and have been enjoying the game again.

 

Now, EAWare is doing it again, requiring CC to get things that should be available to subscribers as part of their fee. The Cathar, for new toons, and the barber shop should be included with the sub fee. If they wanted to sell a race-change token in the CM, I'd be all for that but charging more cash for what are really basic features is ********.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Going on this business model. If the blasted cartel market was in at launch we would have to pay for every other race other than human (example only) in order to play as we please. Other MMO's that I've played do not charge anything but ingame currency (credits, gold, silver etc) for basic customization features such as hair, eyes, body shape etc. with special items (exclusive mouts/outfits and so on) being paid for with out of game currency, which is fine.

 

I'm sorry BW but I will not pay for a feature that is a free basic quality of life in nearly every noteworthy MMO. This should've been included at launch or shortly after and also been included with our subs. I cannot say that these practices are making me value my sub at all past the lvl 50 content...

[branmakmuffin]

INow, EAWare is doing it again, requiring CC to get things that should be available to subscribers as part of their fee. The Cathar, for new toons, and the barber shop should be included with the sub fee. If they wanted to sell a race-change token in the CM, I'd be all for that but charging more cash for what are really basic features is ********.

Get used to it. Nothing that can be categorized as "fluff" that was not part of the game pre-F2P will be included with the sub fee from now on. If hiding your character's head armor slot had not been part of the game pre-F2P, it would cost subs to do it, too (at a discount vs. F2P).

[Soluss]

MMOs revolve around adventuring content, in case you don't get that. TOR does have a lot of replayability because of the class story lines, but they will have to put out more adventuring content or people will stop playing the game. Very few will stay just so they can dye their characters' armor and get them new haircuts. Now the new adventuring content may be "free" (if it's small) or it may cost real $ (if it's big), but at no point will it be gated behind the CM for subs.

 

The only new adventuring content, that effects everyone, that we got was the "expansion". Alot of people do not raid and alot of people do not do warzones. Replayability is about 2 hrs per class... the rest is the same **** over and over. MMOs really revolve around community but after that... everything leads to shineys... from class quests to leveling quests to ops to warzones to crafting etc.... everything leads to shineys. If people didnt love shineys then the cartel market wouldnt be doing so well now would it?

[branmakmuffin]

If people didnt love shineys then the cartel market wouldnt be doing so well now would it?

Gosh, I think we agree on something. As I posted earlier, BWEA relies on the fact that lots of people seem to not be able to help themselves when it comes to buying virtual gear for computer game characters.

[Soluss]

Gosh, I think we agree on something. As I posted earlier, BWEA relies on the fact that lots of people seem to not be able to help themselves when it comes to buying virtual gear for computer game characters.

 

Thats because online worlds revolve around shineys. Think about it... this is why F2P games do so well. This is why B2P games do so well. Its just like life.... people love dressing in different outfits. People love having flashy cars. Everything in life and in MMOs is material. Sure you have certain sets of people that are just happy with the basics in life but they are a very small minority. Customization is what makes MMO worlds feel alive. If you logged in the game the first time and there was 1 race, 1 class, no options on your race... would that be a game people played very long? Nope. Customization like races and barbershop is the same thing. People want options. People want to feel different from other people.

 

Truely I dont have a problem with the cartel market. IMO its good for the game. Its just that its the primary focus and I feel that is wrong. Barbershop, when it is free in atleast 3 AAA MMOs that I know of should not charge people money every single time they want to use it. Whats wrong with charging in game credits like all the other MMOs do? There is plenty of money to be made off the cartel market that this feature doesnt need to be part of it. Maybe if it was a one shot deal where you bought the terminal, I could live with it. Everytime I want to change something to look a little different though? People pay enough from the armor sets and gambling boxes to look different or have different mounts.

 

Its just a bad premise. Sure it may be a good business decision because it makes the company money but the most important aspect of business is customer service. Happy customers are loyal customers. Customers who feel milked for every little thing get fed up eventually. For me, Ill just ignore the new race and the barbershop altogether. I dont mind using my subs cartel coins to get some cool looking armor or a shot at a cool mount or something but I sure as hell will not pay for a feature that is pretty standard as free in MMOs.

[Alphasgimaone]

 

Completely nonsequitur to the discussion here Soluss. Also a very inaccurate analogy.

 

A better analogy would be:

You purchase a new car from a dealer. As an incentive to buy from them instead of Joe Auto Dealer down the street...the dealer gives you $500 in vouchers for free service in their auto center. They are yours.. free.. no strings attached other then the actual car purchase. What, when, and how you choose to spend those vouchers is completely up to you since you own them now. The only restriction is they must be used at their auto-center and they are non-transferable. The dealer even says you can purchse cool new trim for your car with those vouchers.. trim other people have to pay real cash for....as long as you buy it from their part center that is attached to the auto center.

 

Why would a car dealer do this? For the same reason other companies do similar things.. to incentivize you to buy product, to reward you from said purchase, and to tie the incentive into their other business to encourage you to shop and buy from then even more. Bioware is doing the same with their subscription incentives where you get 500+ FREE coins with each month you subscribe.

I'll see your false analogies and non sequiturs and raise you a false equivalency.

 

The problem with the "subs get coins for free" argument is they are notfee--and to that end, neither are the vouchers in your analogy.

 

The dealer does not pay the cost of that $500. One of two things happen:

 

The more common scenario is the $500 is simply factored into the price of the car. You're really not getting the deal you think you are; you pay $20,000 for a car with an actual market value of $19500. They charge you the 20k because it's better for commission purposes (and looks better in the books), but they get creative in assuring your money's worth as to avoid fraud claims. Despite common belief, cars start to depreciate the second they come off the assembly line. So even a 2014 model with an MSRP of $20k that's been sitting in a lot for a while, really isn't worth that much.

 

The other thing that might happen is the voucher is paid for by third parties: i.e. the trim company, Valvoline/Pennzoil (for oil changes), that sort of thing. They do this as it's simply a form of advertising and is budgeted as such. Each time you get your oil changed, they put the mileage counter in your window, and you spend three months (or 3,000 miles ) staring at he big red Valvoline "V.".

 

It's no different with F2P games.

 

In SWTOR's case, you're paying for the coins. There is a predetermined allotment from your sub that covers the cost of those 500 coins. It's probably not $5, but it is there. So those coins really aren't "free."

 

Like the car depreciation, the market value for SWTOR went down the minute it turned F2P. I have no idea what the actual appropriate value for a F2P AAA MMO sub is, but it's not $15. EA chose to keep the sub price at $15 and use the difference to pay for the monthly coin stipend.

 

Similarity to the third-party example, other F2P companies (PWE is big on this.) choose to go the kick-back route. They use those pre-pay cards. The card companies give a kick back each time one of those cards is purchased. So you see "buy X Zen, get Y free" all the time, well the Y really isn't free. It's been paid for.

 

In any case, this argument that subers get "free" Cartel Coins is erroneous.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Wow ok so I started to read beyond the post I just responded to and wow, really people. You have all become such brown nosers I dont think you even see it. Im with the OP. As a subscriber we should NEVER have to buy a new race or class, not even with our monthly allotment, NEVER.

 

Im sorry but I am really shocked at the amount of support there is for a "cartel market exclusive" race. You have all become mindless droids. Fitting suppose for SWTOR but still, it makes me sad to see.

 

M

 

Yeah because subscribers have never had to pay for new classes and races. Oh wait, they are often added in expansions that subscribers need to pay for so if you don't pay you can't access the new race or class.

[CosmicKat]

MMOs revolve around adventuring content, in case you don't get that. TOR does have a lot of replayability because of the class story lines, but they will have to put out more adventuring content or people will stop playing the game. Very few will stay just so they can dye their characters' armor and get them new haircuts. Now the new adventuring content may be "free" (if it's small) or it may cost real $ (if it's big), but at no point will it be gated behind the CM for subs.

 

That's what some of us have been arguing for and about for the last 18 months. TOR does not have enough adventuring content to retain subscribers. This is why it went F2P. Instead of addressing this short coming, we have the CM. Maybe some day revenue from it will be used to fix the original issue, but there's no evidence of that and not even any promise of it. If the CM is as successful as they would have you believe, you can bet your *** that any new content of any kind will indeed be gated through the CM. The only reason it wasn't an option for the expansion is that many subs likely could have paid for it with our accumulated points, and thus could have got it for "free".

 

There is no replayability to this game except for those of us who are alt-aholics or heavily influenced by the story. There is only one levelling (adventuring) path per faction, and much of what is different between factions is a flipping of A-B to B-A in the orientation of the linear planetary mission train track.

 

This has not been tweaked, fixed, added to, or otherwise changed since launch. There have been a few additions to the endgame, but I've always said endgame is not why most people remain subbed to MMO's. Facts would seem to indicate that is at least partially correct.