Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[Shingara]

You are comparing apples to oranges in a nice straw man argument.

 

Fluff that you can get only get from Cartel Packs is entirely different from additions to the base game such as Races and Classes.

 

We know that certain fluff items will only come from Cartel Packs and we as subscribers have to decide if we want them or not. If we do, we have to purchase packs for credits on the GTN or with cash for CC's.

 

Races are basic content, as should any cosmetic changes to characters be. The fact that BW/EA made certain statements to the effect that subscribers would get these sorts of updates for free while F2P players would have to purchase them not withstanding, content updates such as Races and character cosmetic changes fall under an update...not a new Cartel Market introduction.

 

And the Dev response to this thread shows how much more often BW/EA will lie bald-faced straight to their players. More and more we will see "updates and improvements" go into the Cartel Market. If this trend continues I have no doubt we will start to see things like Crafting Schematics and High level mods go into the Cartel Market.

 

Do you suddenly become a thunder cat by looking like a cathar, no its simply cosmetic.

[Ultramecha]

You are comparing apples to oranges in a nice straw man argument.

 

Fluff that you can get only get from Cartel Packs is entirely different from additions to the base game such as Races and Classes.

 

We know that certain fluff items will only come from Cartel Packs and we as subscribers have to decide if we want them or not. If we do, we have to purchase packs for credits on the GTN or with cash for CC's.

 

Races are basic content, as should any cosmetic changes to characters be. The fact that BW/EA made certain statements to the effect that subscribers would get these sorts of updates for free while F2P players would have to purchase them not withstanding, content updates such as Races and character cosmetic changes fall under an update...not a new Cartel Market introduction.

 

 

And the Dev response to this thread shows how much more often BW/EA will lie bald-faced straight to their players. More and more we will see "updates and improvements" go into the Cartel Market. If this trend continues I have no doubt we will start to see things like Crafting Schematics and High level mods go into the Cartel Market.

 

Unless that race has a new story or some advantage its fluff. Fluff that can be obtained with the complimentary cartel coins. So subscribers pay nothing... thats more than most mmos offer. Race changes in wow cost cash. They dont offer free coins to do it with a sub.

[DaRoamer]

Yes because I can buy it with credits.

 

You'll be able to do the same with the Carthar.

[Hawkwalker]

You'll be able to do the same with the Carthar.

 

When?

[nateslice]

I think what was meant by "full access to customization" was that when you're creating your character you have access to all the "standard" options. F2P players are limited to three species, IIRC, unless they buy access to more.

 

It could also be referring to "hide headgear" and "match color to chest". Subscribers have access to those options, while F2P don't unless they buy the unlock for it.

 

Subscribers also have access to purple mods and shells when putting together a gear set, while F2P have to buy an artifact unlock to use those items.

 

Those three things are about the extent of what could be called "character customization" at this time, so the chart does ring true.

[Ultramecha]

When?

 

Anything that's been exclusive to the cartel market can be bought on gtn. Cathars will likely be the same situation.

[iamthehoyden]

Because is there is no wiggle room. Flat out. You can't argue that the Cathar race costs subscribers anything, because it doesn't. You can't deny that. If your interpretation of the Cathar race is that they're trying to nickel-and-dime subs for new races, I can only laugh. Truth is that new races are usually released in much more expensive expansions. Truth is that subs won't have to spend an extra dollar to get the Cathar race. Truth is getting the Cathar race is an option which is a good thing because I won't be forced to unlock someone I never intend to play.

This is such an awful argument I had to pop in. "You can't argue that the Cathar race costs subscribers anything, because it doesn't." Flat out wrong.

 

We get 500 cc as part of our subscription. Those 500 cc provide us with a choice as to how to spend it. We can choose to spend it on a pile of crates, we can spend it on unlocks, we can save it up and spend it on Cathar. BUT (and here's where your argument falls apart that the new race costs us nothing) we cannot spend that 500 cc on BOTH the Cathar and on something else we want. If we save it up and spend ccs on the new race it COSTS US something else we want. There's a trade off - a cost.

 

I'm glad you're happy to see the 500 cc a month as an extra. Please understand that to many of us, that is part of our subscription which we are paying for. It's not free. It comes as part of the package, which we pay for. Ergo, a cost is involved.

 

Now, we're clearly not in the sub gets you all the content era (and haven't been for awhile). People who are unhappy with this being a CM unlock are perfectly free to let BW know that they're unhappy before they go to the next step of unsubbing. That's part of the reason these forums are here. For my part, I still feel that I get a good value for my sub and am okay with these things being CM unlocks. I'm pretty pleased with the price they set for the Cathar; it's better than I'd figured. However, that doesn't mean those who aren't happy with this need to be belittled or attacked or beaten to death with poor arguments.

[Shingara]

This is such an awful argument I had to pop in. "You can't argue that the Cathar race costs subscribers anything, because it doesn't." Flat out wrong.

 

We get 500 cc as part of our subscription. Those 500 cc provide us with a choice as to how to spend it. We can choose to spend it on a pile of crates, we can spend it on unlocks, we can save it up and spend it on Cathar. BUT (and here's where your argument falls apart that the new race costs us nothing) we cannot spend that 500 cc on BOTH the Cathar and on something else we want. If we save it up and spend ccs on the new race it COSTS US something else we want. There's a trade off - a cost.

 

I'm glad you're happy to see the 500 cc a month as an extra. Please understand that to many of us, that is part of our subscription which we are paying for. It's not free. It comes as part of the package, which we pay for. Ergo, a cost is involved.

 

Now, we're clearly not in the sub gets you all the content era (and haven't been for awhile). People who are unhappy with this being a CM unlock are perfectly free to let BW know that they're unhappy before they go to the next step of unsubbing. That's part of the reason these forums are here. For my part, I still feel that I get a good value for my sub and am okay with these things being CM unlocks. I'm pretty pleased with the price they set for the Cathar; it's better than I'd figured. However, that doesn't mean those who aren't happy with this need to be belittled or attacked or beaten to death with poor arguments.

 

So basically your argument is they give people to much to spend it on and they cannot be trusted or have the sense to save those coins for the cathar.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Shingara

[iamthehoyden]

So basically your argument is they give people to much to spend it on and they cannot be trusted or have the sense to save those coins for the cathar.

No. That is not my argument. That is so far from my argument that I ask you to read my post a second time.

 

My argument is that the Cathar do indeed have a cost. It is 600 cc. That is 600 cc that you could have chosen to spend on something else if it were actually free. That means there is a cost involved.

 

Now, me, personally, I think 600 cc is a fair price. But to say that there is no cost is not accurate.

[Shingara]

No. That is not my argument. That is so far from my argument that I ask you to read my post a second time.

 

My argument is that the Cathar do indeed have a cost. It is 600 cc. That is 600 cc that you could have chosen to spend on something else if it were actually free. That means there is a cost involved.

 

Now, me, personally, I think 600 cc is a fair price. But to say that there is no cost is not accurate.

 

You said that the coins that subscriber get of 500-600 coins a month (not counting the extra 100 a month we get for the key) doesnt cover the cost of cathar as people have to look at the shiney shiney things and cannot be held responsible for spending those coins on the other shiney things in the candy shop. Your words.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Shingara

[nateslice]

IMO, BioWare is charging the correct amount for Cathar access. They can be any class, and all appearance options are available to both factions. This puts Cathar in line with all the other species unlocks, which also cost 600 CC for the same level of accessibility.

 

They could've easily charged us a base amount for limited access to Cathar (only available for a few classes, with different appearance options separated by faction), and then made us earn or buy the full unlock separately. This would've been a totally legitimate option, too.

 

I think it was more generous of them to do it the way they did.

 

Thanks, BioWare!

[iamthehoyden]

You said that the coins that subscriber get of 500-600 coins a month doesnt cover the cost of cathar as people have to look at the shiney shiney things and cannot be held responsible for spending those coins on the other shiney things in the candy shop. Your words.

Lol, not my words. But thank you for putting words in my mouth, they're tasty. False, but tasty.

Edited April 30, 2013 by iamthehoyden

[Shingara]

Lol, not my words. But thank you for putting words in my mouth, they're tasty. False, but tasty.

 

We get 500 cc as part of our subscription. Those 500 cc provide us with a choice as to how to spend it. We can choose to spend it on a pile of crates, we can spend it on unlocks, we can save it up and spend it on Cathar.(and here's where your argument falls apart that the new race costs us nothing) we cannot spend that 500 cc on BOTH the Cathar and on something else we want. If we save it up and spend ccs on the new race it COSTS US something else we want. There's a trade off - a cost.

 

 

uuh huh

 

btw, its 500 for 1 month subs, 550 for 3 month subs and 600 for 6 month subs, also 100 for a key. more for raf etc etc but 500 is the minimum coins we get a month.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Shingara

[iamthehoyden]

We get 500 cc as part of our subscription. Those 500 cc provide us with a choice as to how to spend it. We can choose to spend it on a pile of crates, we can spend it on unlocks, we can save it up and spend it on Cathar. BUT (and here's where your argument falls apart that the new race costs us nothing) we cannot spend that 500 cc on BOTH the Cathar and on something else we want. If we save it up and spend ccs on the new race it COSTS US something else we want. There's a trade off - a cost.

You said that the coins that subscriber get of 500-600 coins a month (not counting the extra 100 a month we get for the key) doesnt cover the cost of cathar as people have to look at the shiney shiney things and cannot be held responsible for spending those coins on the other shiney things in the candy shop. Your words.

Alrighty, let me go through this slowly. First of all, I didn't say that the 500-600 coins a month doesn't cover the cost of the Cathar. It might if someone chooses to save up their coins, or it might not if someone spends their coins on other things. Second, not sure what this whole cannot be held responsible thing is, since people are responsible for their own choices and nothing I said negates that.

 

What I'm saying, is that even if you save up those coins, you are using them to buy the race unlock instead of something else you might want. Now, keep in mind that I'm okay with this, I think this is fair, personally. But it is a COST. It is not FREE. Your cost is what you could have bought had you spent the ccs on other things.

[Shingara]

Alrighty, let me go through this slowly. First of all, I didn't say that the 500-600 coins a month doesn't cover the cost of the Cathar. It might if someone chooses to save up their coins, or it might not if someone spends their coins on other things. Second, not sure what this whole cannot be held responsible thing is, since people are responsible for their own choices and nothing I said negates that.

 

What I'm saying, is that even if you save up those coins, you are using them to buy the race unlock instead of something else you might want. Now, keep in mind that I'm okay with this, I think this is fair, personally. But it is a COST. It is not FREE. Your cost is what you could have bought had you spent the ccs on other things.

 

So yes, they cannot be trusted to spend / save there coins on the race unlock. your words. what are they 7 year olds who cant decide what they want in a candy shop.

 

its either we get enough coins a month to get cathar or we dont. its that simple, Simples squeek

Edited April 30, 2013 by Shingara

[iamthehoyden]

So yes, they cannot be trusted to spend save there coins on the race unlock. your words. what are they 7 year olds who cant decide what they want in a candy shop.

 

its either we get enough coins a month to get cathar or they dont. its that simple, Simples squeek

Ok, I'm quite done with this nonsense since you're in no way logical. You cannot say "your words" if you don't actually use my words. In case you missed it, "they cannot be trusted to spend save there coins on the race unlock" does not appear anywhere in my posts. (Thank goodness, because I'd have to go back in and edit the misspellings.)

Edited April 30, 2013 by iamthehoyden

[Shingara]

Ok, I'm quite done with this nonsense since you're in no way logical. You cannot say "your words" if you don't actually use my words. In case you missed it, "they cannot be trusted to spend save there coins on the race unlock" does not appear anywhere in my posts. (Thank goodness, cause I'd have to go back in and edit the misspellings.)

 

Logical lol, your logic is it costs because you can spend those coins on other things. thats not logic, thats greed. Cathar cost 600, a 1 month sub with a key is 600 coins. Thats one months coins, that is enough for cathar, no trade off involved. you want cathar dont buy anything else, you want something else dont get cathar.

 

Ow and incase you missed it you dont have to write those specific words to have that exact meaning. im not exaclty up against Georgy Agzamov here am i lol.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Shingara

[Khevar]

So basically your argument is they give people to much to spend it on and they cannot be trusted or have the sense to save those coins for the cathar.

I read iamthehoyden's arguments as:

 

Some players feel Bioware shouldn't have charged for the Cathar unlock, but given it to subscribers. And what's wrong with letting these players express their viewpoint?

 

I don't personally have a problem with the Cathar being a Cartel unlock. I've got enough alts, I'm not going to make any more. And kitty-cats don't interest me at all.

 

On the other hand, I can understand others' disagreement with being charged for this cosmetic unlock. And let's imagine the reverse:

 

Don't you think Bioware could obtain beaucoup goodwill by saying, "Hey all you subs, here's a reward for your patronage -- you get Cathar for free. All the free/preferred people have to buy them"

[Shingara]

I read iamthehoyden's arguments as:

 

Some players feel Bioware shouldn't have charged for the Cathar unlock, but given it to subscribers. And what's wrong with letting these players express their viewpoint?

 

I don't personally have a problem with the Cathar being a Cartel unlock. I've got enough alts, I'm not going to make any more. And kitty-cats don't interest me at all.

 

On the other hand, I can understand others' disagreement with being charged for this cosmetic unlock. And let's imagine the reverse:

 

Don't you think Bioware could obtain beaucoup goodwill by saying, "Hey all you subs, here's a reward for your patronage -- you get Cathar for free. All the free/preferred people have to buy them"

 

really cos i read it as people are complaining cos there are other things to buy and we shouldnt be forced to use our free coins to buy it.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Shingara

[Andryah]

My argument is that the Cathar do indeed have a cost. It is 600 cc. That is 600 cc that you could have chosen to spend on something else if it were actually free. That means there is a cost involved.

 

You are trying to cloud the discussion IMO.

 

The correct term for what you are refering to is "opportunity cost". Look it up. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/opportunity-cost.html

 

NOT to be confused with 'incremenal cost" which is what most people are discussing. Some claim the cost for Cathar is a real $$ "incremental cost" for subscribers, which is actually not true. Some (myself included) claim that this is a specious claim given the rate at which CCs are granted to subs in conjunction with the price they charge for the unlock.

 

Free players DO incur an incemental real $$ cost to aquire Cathar.

 

Subs incur an opportunity cost in terms of their pool of CCs granted to them for subscribing. They DO NOT incur an incremental real $$ cost to aquire the Cathar unlock, except by their own free choice. Why you ask?? Since CCs granted to sub represent a pool of resources, and since all pools of resources are by defintion limited in some way... there is ALWAYS an opportunity cost associated with any resource. So each player has a pool of resource and chooses how to accumulate and spend them.

 

NOW.. if Bioware had made the cost to unlock Cathar (account wide, all races, all characters btw) some extremely high number of coins.. then opportunity cost could be rationally viewed as excessive and therefore forcing many people into incuring an incremental real $$ cost (which some here claim, but cannot substantiate at the low cost being charged). But Bioware did not do this. They actually made the CC fee very modest and ~ equivalent to every players CC reward for one month. There is therefore no rational claim that unlocking Cathar forces any subscriber to incur actual real $$ incremental costs to unlock Cathar.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Andryah

[nateslice]

It would've been really easy for BioWare to say, "1000 CC gets you basic access to the species. They can be Smugglers, Troopers, Bounty Hunters, or Sith Inquisitors. Some appearance options are available to Republic Cathar, while others are available to Empire Cathar. You can then earn full access with the species unlock, earned by reaching level 50 as a Cathar, or purchasable from the Cartel Market for the standard species unlock price of 600 CC."

 

This would've also fit Star Wars lore, as Cathar are highly emotional (making it hard for them to become Jedi) and are viewed as a slave race by the Empire (making it hard for them to gain acceptance as Warriors or Agents).

 

Instead, they chose to say, "Four-star (****) it. 600 CC gets you full access to the species for all classes, with all appearance options available to both factions. It's just like any other species unlock, except you don't have access to Cathar at all without it."

 

They chose to be more generous than they needed to be with the Cathar. I think that's pretty cool!

Edited April 30, 2013 by nateslice

[iamthehoyden]

You are trying to cloud the discussion IMO.

 

The correct term for what you are refering to is "opportunity cost". Look it up. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/opportunity-cost.html

 

NOT to be confused with 'incremenal cost" which is what most people are discussing. Some claim the cost for Cathar is a real $$ "incremental cost" for subscribers, which is actually not true. Some (myself included) claim that this is a specious claim given the rate at which CCs are granted to subs in conjunction with the price they charge for the unlock.

 

Free players DO incur an incemental real $$ cost to aquire Cathar.

 

Subs incur an opportunity cost in terms of their pool of CCs granted to them for subscribing. They DO NOT incur an incremental real $$ cost to aquire the Cathar unlock, except by their own free choice. Why you ask?? Since CCs granted to sub represent a pool of resources, and since all pools of resources are by defintion limited in some way... there is ALWAYS an opportunity cost associated with any resource. So each player has a pool of resource and chooses how to accumulate and spend them.

 

NOW.. if Bioware had made the cost to unlock Cathar (account wide, all races, all characters btw) some extremely high number of coins.. then opportunity cost could be rationally viewed as excessive and therefore forcing many people into incuring an incremental real $$ cost (which some here claim, but cannot substantiate at the low cost being charged). But Bioware did not do this. They actually made the CC fee very modest and ~ equivalent to every players CC reward for one month. There is therefore no rational claim that unlocking Cathar forces any subscriber to incur actual real $$ incremental costs to unlock Cathar.

I am not, in fact, trying to cloud the issue, but to clear up a bad argument, but, of course, you are welcome to your opinion as to my motivations. Doesn't make your opinion correct

 

I was, of course, referring to opportunity cost, but please continue with your unnecessary business babble. It's always amusing.

[branmakmuffin]

He's trolling for pointing a fact out?

Makillda apparently subscribes to the common definition of trolling: "If I don't understand something or if I do and I disagree with it, it's trolling."

[hippiechick]

Yeah because subscribers have never had to pay for new classes and races. Oh wait, they are often added in expansions that subscribers need to pay for so if you don't pay you can't access the new race or class.

 

That is not even close to the same thing. Under your theory there could never be an xpac . Think of it this way, which is more true to what the topic is:

 

You go to Amazon and buy The Chiss Take Over the Universe expansion which adds another planet, Chissdom but you can only access Chissdom after you unlock it in the CM. THAT is pretty much what this is. We paid for the xpac but can only access some of its content by additionally purchasing it off the market. The fact that they gave us the credits to do just that with is irrelevant. In fact it negates the "gift" for lack of a better word of the credits in the first place. Its like me giving you a ten dollar bill when you come over for dinner then charging you ten bucks for the dinner. NOT a gift anymore.

 

M

[Shingara]

That is not even close to the same thing. Under your theory there could never be an xpac . Think of it this way, which is more true to what the topic is:

 

You go to Amazon and buy The Chiss Take Over the Universe expansion which adds another planet, Chissdom but you can only access Chissdom after you unlock it in the CM. THAT is pretty much what this is. We paid for the xpac but can only access some of its content by additionally purchasing it off the market. The fact that they gave us the credits to do just that with is irrelevant. In fact it negates the "gift" for lack of a better word of the credits in the first place. Its like me giving you a ten dollar bill when you come over for dinner then charging you ten bucks for the dinner. NOT a gift anymore.

 

M

 

 

er no, you would only be right on that if cathar were part of makeb, but thats like saying 2.0 is part of makeb and anyone who didnt buy makeb were not allowed to patch beyond 1.7