Lvl 55 HM FP Tuning

[grallmate]

TL;DR - I was wondering how others were finding the tuning of the level 55 HM FPs: specifically the trash.

 

I dinged 55 about 11 pm yesterday on my Guardian Tank and jumped in queue with one of my guild's Sage Healers to give it a shot. Now I was just in my pre-2.0 61/63 mix fully augmented and the healer was in the same. PUG DPS had some 69 and some 61/63 stuff. Anyway we go Mandalorian Raiders, sweet I love that FP.

 

Anyway skip forward to the first pull with those damn dog things, just 2 of them. I felt REDICULOUSLY squishy. Like my HP dropped like a stone. Nothing the healer couldn't handle but it was probably the scariest damage spike I've taken. No sweat we get though, the next pull with the droids was easy. Come back around to the pulls where those dogs are again and I had to preemptively pop a CD on literally EVERY pull that involved those dogs. Lost aggro at 1 point thanks to a derp on my part (didn't leap quick enough and ended up sailing past the doggy mid air) and the DPS just got destroyed in the blink of an eye. I remember them being a tough mob in SM but never "CD or Die".

 

Now I'm all for tough pulls that actually require a tank to be doable, that I completely agree with. But those were just insane. Comparatively the bosses dealt next to no damage aside from Mavrix Varad when both turrets were up and the Boarding Party when we were down to 1 of them but that may have just been our kill order. It just seems odd to me that the trash was hitting THAT MUCH harder than bosses. I assume this has to do with the reduced DR curve on the mitigation stats which was balanced for PVE by tuning down the damage that Champion mobs do. However, non-Champion mobs (I think the dogs are Strongs?) don't appear to have been changed at all while mitigation was greatly reduced and I was wondering if anyone else has noticed that.

 

Now just to be clear this isn't a whinge for them to be nerfed. I really enjoyed being tested a bit, I LOVE that it needs a tank and I know we were a little under gear. I just want to know if other people are having the same observations, or maybe my healer was just being a derp.

[Mowermanx]

I like it, its how it felt when the game first started and everyone was only in couple of tio pieces(if that) and the rest blues and greens. You had to play right or you wiped.

But, as time went by more people had good gear and lower gear was made easier and given away at the end, most times you could just faceroll and play lazy.

I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen here again, once the majority get semi decent geared, there will be a lot more room for error.

[grallmate]

I like it, its how it felt when the game first started and everyone was only in couple of tio pieces(if that) and the rest blues and greens. You had to play right or you wiped.

But, as time went by more people had good gear and lower gear was made easier and given away at the end, most times you could just faceroll and play lazy.

I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen here again, once the majority get semi decent geared, there will be a lot more room for error.

 

It didn't really feel like that on the bosses though (last Boarding Party member aside), only on the trash hence why I'm questioning the tuning.

 

As an aside I found the Dog trainer boss tedious but easy while the Boarding Party was a PITA with the Warrior's constant Pushing and ignoring aggro. Varad and the new boss were fun though.

[MichelvanMeerten]

This is effectivly the same when I hit 50 and started doing HM's with my healer. I could barely keep up and sometimes totally not. It's a gear problem. My sage is still in mostly 50 BH/Rakata gear and healing 55HM's with that.

 

It's like going into a 50 hm while wearing quest gear. It's hard at first but we'll overcome that and in a month or 2 we will completely overgear it again and then say "Hey bioware, 55 hm's are to easy, plese fix"

 

Same old story after every expansion similar to WOW's heroics.

[grallmate]

This is effectivly the same when I hit 50 and started doing HM's with my healer. I could barely keep up and sometimes totally not. It's a gear problem. My sage is still in mostly 50 BH/Rakata gear and healing 55HM's with that.

 

It's like going into a 50 hm while wearing quest gear. It's hard at first but we'll overcome that and in a month or 2 we will completely overgear it again and then say "Hey bioware, 55 hm's are to easy, plese fix"

 

Same old story after every expansion similar to WOW's heroics.

 

Fair enough, I just don't recall the trash being THAT brutal (especially relative to the bosses) when I hit 50 back at 1.1.

 

I'd put the bosses at about a 3 out of 10 difficulty (similar to tanking SM EC) while those trash pulls were closer to 6 or 7 out of 10 (similar to tanking HM TFB).

[Satedbuffalo]

DPS margins feel quite low.

Tanking doesn't seem to require significant defensive stats.

Healers need to be on their toes.

 

Honestly, you could probably pull them off in mostly 61s, though the bonus bosses might be an issue without a larger health pool

[JMarchini]

Bonus boss in Hammer Station is quite challenging as well, and seems to have a super tight enrage timer, especially with his rampage attack that stuns and does AoE damage to the group. Spent more time wiping on him than any other boss in that one.

[TrooperSev]

It's a gear issue. I remember when my group hit 50 we took hours trying to get past one HM FP. Today we could probably do most HM FP's 3-man. While Sleeping.

 

Don't forget that proper use of CC is something that will make or break a good run. It pays to take the extra time to mark and cc targets.

[wainot-keel]

Well, maybe it'll be a bit like Kaon, where you have to be careful with trash pulls, otherwise things get messy fast and you're facing a wipe.

 

But yeah, I remember that flaspoint on the PTS. The first time I did it with my healer we were like facerolling everything, going nonstop from one mob to the other with our shiny Arkanian gear. Until we face one of those and we got torn to shreds in seconds.

 

"daf**?"

"rofl, yeah, let's be more careful next time"

 

It was a wakeup slap

[Vonric]

I can only speak on the two i have done so far.

 

My first was Athiss. This one seemed pretty easy. None of the fights seemed changed all that much for the low level on. We made it through with only one or two deaths and no wipes.

 

Cademimu one the other hand seemed to be scaled well. We had a hard time with it. The fights seemed changed enough that it seemed like a new one. We wiped like 8-9 times but was fun to learn it a new.

[hobbesmaster]

Fair enough, I just don't recall the trash being THAT brutal (especially relative to the bosses) when I hit 50 back at 1.1.

 

I'd put the bosses at about a 3 out of 10 difficulty (similar to tanking SM EC) while those trash pulls were closer to 6 or 7 out of 10 (similar to tanking HM TFB).

 

The only problem I had with mandalorian raiders as a sin tank is that those turrets they put everywhere with CC immunity hit hard. The double turret trash areas were harder than the bosses.

[emidas]

I honestly find all four too easy. The (seemingly) one new mechanic per boss is usually a cool one, but nonetheless easy to deal with (and in some cases, makes the fight easier). I've run with both guild tanks and neither has had an issue. We did have a problem in one run with a pug sage healer, but he wasn't using his toolbox very well (no bubbles, no puddles, etc.). Hammer Station is far and away the biggest cakewalk.

[emidas]

Bonus boss in Hammer Station is quite challenging as well, and seems to have a super tight enrage timer, especially with his rampage attack that stuns and does AoE damage to the group. Spent more time wiping on him than any other boss in that one.

 

You can outrange rampage as ranged dps, and if you use an L-formation, the healer can too.

[KarethRiker]

I like it, its how it felt when the game first started and everyone was only in couple of tio pieces(if that) and the rest blues and greens. You had to play right or you wiped.

But, as time went by more people had good gear and lower gear was made easier and given away at the end, most times you could just faceroll and play lazy.

I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen here again, once the majority get semi decent geared, there will be a lot more room for error.

 

^ this. It does recapture the early days of pre-Columi a bit. I think once we're all in 69s and 72s we'll be smashing through this. Healers really need to be on their game right now and DPS must be careful with which enemies they target instead of off-tanking as some of us were prone to do in the old HMs.

[AshlaBoga]

I remember my first HM BT. Wiped twice on the first mob (all 4 of us were in level 49 purples or level 50 blues:p). After we got more daily gear (level 50/51 purples) HM BT became much easier. I'm sure once everyone has a couple pieces of level 69 gear we'll wonder how we ever found the new HM FPs to be anything other than a cakewalk.

[USCG_Davis]

I'd like to request all of the HM FP for level 55's be made harder. Every single one of them is a cake walk in BiS 63's and now that were almost full 69's, they're already getting boring. We've had zero trouble at all even when we did em as soon as we dinged 55. Edited April 12, 2013 by USCG_Davis

[TralyanSavo]

Yeah, this is largely a gear issue and some new mechanics that people aren't ready for. My main is a Shadow tank so you know where I'm coming from.

 

I had a sentinel in full 63s jump ahead of me into a mob before I picked up aggro on the group. He was dead before I even got to the mob to pick them up, whereas before if a DPS pulled a group like that, a Slow Time and Force Breach would pull aggro back without much issue.

 

Some of the pulls are difficult and I'm going through cooldowns on trash to stay alive, whereas before I'd pop cooldowns to make life easier on my healers but didn't really need to. Learning my rotation and when in fights to pop cooldowns is getting better also.

 

That said, at this time, making the upgrade from 61/63 to full 66 and 69 has made a huge difference in my ability to mitigate damage. In mostly 63 and a few 61s, I honestly felt squishy like a DPS who dropped into tank stance. If Kinetic Ward dropped off and I had no cooldown to deal with it, ya done son. I now have Black Market on feet, gloves, belt, and bracers and some mods from the basic gear in other spots and a few 63's and I'm much, much sturdier.

 

Some pulls though are very much on the healers and I think some are still learning their new rotations (as we all are). Some pulls really need CC now and some you really need to follow the right kill order to keep everyone up.

 

Some are simply unfamiliar mechanics. I died on the droid boss in Hammer Station when the healer said he knew the fight and didn't cleanse the stacking laser debuff. I've been trying to run Cademimu with guildies so we can use voice for the shackles, but we pugged a gunslinger for DPS and he wasn't paying enough attention and he ended up dying in the fire.

 

Some of it, I think, is just the skill of players involved. Between all the free gear, double xp, and quickness of leveling through Makeb, players at 55 now are the ones who can level the fastest. A lot of guildies that I like to run with didn't pre-order and so are stuck at 50 for now. This will change as the more skilled players level also.

 

This is all good stuff. Its exciting and its nice to not take HM's for granted (at least for a little bit). Honestly, by the time it hits live the pre-release people will be geared enough to help carry people through the new HM's a bit, but those first few 55 HM's were brutal. But yeah, with gear we're getting through these with no deaths most of the time.

[Khevar]

Fair enough, I just don't recall the trash being THAT brutal (especially relative to the bosses) when I hit 50 back at 1.1.

 

I'd put the bosses at about a 3 out of 10 difficulty (similar to tanking SM EC) while those trash pulls were closer to 6 or 7 out of 10 (similar to tanking HM TFB).

On my first run of HM Hammer Station I had a similar experience. Our group expected to faceroll and were slapped across the face smugly by the first group.

 

 

Although, I've seen this type of mob-tuning on encounters as well. I've wiped on the Murder Droids in KP more times than the bosses.

[RandomXChance]

It is somewhat a gear issue, but mainly it is the fact that we have become overconfident and lazy with plowing through the level 50 HM flashpoints. The first couple of days after the expansion were filled with wipes as we did not cc and the healers started off DPS'ing as they were able to do previously.

 

As others have said, if you treat this as we did when running pre-50 level blues and greens when we first did the HM flashpoints it is no problem. If you expect to faceroll with heals DPS'ing and DPS pulling you will rack up big repair bills.

 

We have all picked up some bad habits that need to be unlearned.

[Creslan]

I feel they are tuned fine. They are challenging, but not impossible as long as you pay attention to whats going on. I think alot of people are so used to going into a HM flashpoint expecting to either sneak by everything or just zerg down the adds/boss.

 

As people's gear and knowledge of the flashpoints increase they will become easier. I've done all 4 55 HM flashpoints and haven't yet run across a part that felt "impossible" in 61/63 gear. The bonus bosses by far are the most challenging of the flashpoints, but offer great rewards. Six months down the road we may be asking for harder content to challenge us since these four HM's are so easy.

[grallmate]

I feel they are tuned fine. They are challenging, but not impossible as long as you pay attention to whats going on. I think alot of people are so used to going into a HM flashpoint expecting to either sneak by everything or just zerg down the adds/boss.

 

As people's gear and knowledge of the flashpoints increase they will become easier. I've done all 4 55 HM flashpoints and haven't yet run across a part that felt "impossible" in 61/63 gear. The bonus bosses by far are the most challenging of the flashpoints, but offer great rewards. Six months down the road we may be asking for harder content to challenge us since these four HM's are so easy.

 

By no means did they feel impossible, we only had 2 wipes (1 trash derp on my part and 1 on the Boarding Party while figuring out the kill order) and in fact aside from the last member of the Boarding Party all the bosses felt very simple. The trash felt like being hit with an ICBM (I know the DPS were still playing like we over geared it and not focus firing or wiping out all the normals before hitting the strongs) but I guess I'll just chalk it up to low gear for now and re-evaluate once I've acquired some more gear.

[SafeJungleFever]

I was able to heal through in my DPS gear (pretty darn good DPS gear) as a commando with a bare minimum of healing experience (like count on fingers). It was difficult, there were a few deaths due to Leroying mostly. One boss death. TBH if I was on a sage or scoundrel i doubt there would have even been those deaths.

 

That said, the tank was being eaten alive and dps peels were absolute hell.

 

Now, even with a couple of 66/69 pieces, it's not too bad. No facerolling anymore, but then again, nothign wrong with that. I could run HM FPs all night long back before I was full 61 and auged cuz they were in fact fun and somewhat challenging.

[Kespar]

I agree with the person above - they are fine.

 

My first of the new ones was a surprise - I did exactly the same as the OP - jumped in to the first pack, AOE taunted and took some extreme damage.

 

I refused to use AOE taunt from there on out, and pulled things as individual targets, this meant the dps took a few more slaps, but only from one mob as opposed to four or five. The healer can cope with the smaller damage to multiple targets.

 

After getting some gear, I found using AOE taunts safer - especially with Saber Reflect immediately after.

 

TLDR: They are hard, thats the idea. They drop decent enough loot, so persevere. - Avoid pugging if possible!

Edited April 15, 2013 by Kespar

[CommanderKeeva]

I was able to heal through in my DPS gear (pretty darn good DPS gear) as a commando with a bare minimum of healing experience (like count on fingers). It was difficult, there were a few deaths due to Leroying mostly. One boss death. TBH if I was on a sage or scoundrel i doubt there would have even been those deaths.

 

That said, the tank was being eaten alive and dps peels were absolute hell.

 

Now, even with a couple of 66/69 pieces, it's not too bad. No facerolling anymore, but then again, nothign wrong with that. I could run HM FPs all night long back before I was full 61 and auged cuz they were in fact fun and somewhat challenging.

 

Indeed, I do the same when I play my Commando, queue as DPS and Healer and do whichever pops. I, too, heal in my DPS gear with 99% accuracy (yay). I started to do this with the old 50 HM FPs once my gear got good enough to guarantee success but now I was afraid that DPS gear and relative lack of experience as a healer wasn't going to cut it. We CC'd the mobs, did the proper tactics for the bosses and to my large surprise we finished all four flashpoints without a single death.

 

The most difficult boss (for me anyway) was the Separatist Sith in Cademimu but even that because of a bug and not because overall damage was too high. (You know, when he pulls you in, you can get stuck in a flying animation, which prevents you from running out of the lightning storm quickly.) That one made me sweat but I guess had people not been stuck in a floating animation and been able to run out of the AOE field, it would have been considerably easier.

Edited April 15, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[Glorthox]

I don't feel like much of a tank in these new hardmode's. I feel like I'm too squishy, and yet my gear doesn't totally suck. So IMO tune them down just a tad, I like a challenge, but these HM's are insane! Tank defense % is so low and no way to bring it back up, so we die so quickly without burning cd's. I was just in a group doing hammer station, we wipe on the first boss, and everyone leaves. So while some of us don't mind a challenge and multiple deaths to learn a new hardmode, most won't stay. So maybe this needs to be looked at.