On the brink of leaving

[NvrShoutNvr]

For those of you who don't know me, I am Ammut from Imp Side. First time on the forums, hey hi how are ya. I'm sure you have heard it a million times before, but this new bolster system is.. broken. To say the least. A friend of mine tested a theory, went into a 55 bg completely naked except for his main and offhand, and had more expertise, stats, and health than people in full partisan gear. uhh.. what? I completely understand the need for the bolster in the lowbie brackets to keep everyone on the same playing field, but in end game? really? lolno. I really hope this is just a bug and Bioware will iron this out. But if this is how 55 PvP will be from now on, then I'll be cancelling my subscription to tor. What is the point of grinding BiS PvP gear at 55 if people can just walk in naked and be on par and/or better? This doesn't make sense. this is an RPG and gear is (supposed) to separate the padawans from the masters. It separates the casuals who do the daily once in awhile, to the hardcores who actually enjoy farming BiS and enjoy competitive PvP. I know PvP guilds like Grim, Infamous, and ASB can't be too thrilled about this either. I love PvP, and I especially love(d) PvP in star wars, but if this doesn't get fixed, and get fixed soon, I'll be leaving and just bide my time until Elder Scrolls lets me in their beta. It's been fun, but I fear this new bolster system might be the downfall of PvP in this game. Let's cross our fingers and hope Bioware gets their head out of their asses. Probably just wishful thinking though. Thanks for the gg's, Colony.

[Targarion]

I can't speak for the rest of the pvpers out there. I heard it being said by a few people about the Bolster system. I for one think the concept behind it is good, which is to make pvp more skill base than gear which I know will upset the few who enjoy lopsided pvp matches. If the new pvp format forces people to learn how to play their class, than all's fair in love and war. But on the flip side, I can see the argument that some players will miss having the option to customize their gear to give them an edge over other players. I think this should be allowed, but I don't see how you can have it both ways. The real issue about pvp is it's no longer competitive. Either you are on a team destroys the oposition or you are on a team being destroyed. The truth is, it's very hard to please everyone all of the time...

[stringcat]

They confirmed naked bolster is a bug and will fix.

 

I think overall the removal of bad gear via bolster is a great thing. The occasional 2-v-1 or 3-v-1ing makes you feel like a ******, but it's fundamentally not fair and the product of gear unbalance. Everyone benefits from bolster, because while EWH-geared may crush fewer recruits, they're also spared the frustration of trying to win with two- or three- recruit-geared players on the team.

 

 

The faster TTK hurts the "feel" of warzone competitiveness, though, in a way that's not helpful. Everyone really dies fast. That means if one team is significantly better than the other, they just melt in one or two GCDs. In the old system, there would have a longer fight and a less frustrating defeat for the defeated, even if the outcome is the same speeded up x 3.

[Aikon]

As Valya stated, it is a confirmed bug and will be fixed. When, you say? Who knows, but it is a priority to be fixed. Hang in there, man.

[bsbrad]

I actually like the idea they are trying to go with, i.e. skill > gear. They just need to tone down the TTK and maybe give incentives to the gear stuff, i.e. +2% boost for each tier of PVP gear.

 

This will allow the grinders to feel they achieved BIS without completely de-stabilizing the balance in the WZ. It got to a point before the patch that people would just look at the health bars of other ppl and if it was below a certain number would just leave as they knew too many recruit level PVPers = not a fun WZ experience.

[NvrShoutNvr]

They confirmed naked bolster is a bug and will fix.

 

I think overall the removal of bad gear via bolster is a great thing. The occasional 2-v-1 or 3-v-1ing makes you feel like a ******, but it's fundamentally not fair and the product of gear unbalance. Everyone benefits from bolster, because while EWH-geared may crush fewer recruits, they're also spared the frustration of trying to win with two- or three- recruit-geared players on the team.

 

 

The faster TTK hurts the "feel" of warzone competitiveness, though, in a way that's not helpful. Everyone really dies fast. That means if one team is significantly better than the other, they just melt in one or two GCDs. In the old system, there would have a longer fight and a less frustrating defeat for the defeated, even if the outcome is the same speeded up x 3.

 

I really hope this is a bug.

[Targarion]

Interesting...

[NvrShoutNvr]

They confirmed naked bolster is a bug and will fix.

 

I think overall the removal of bad gear via bolster is a great thing. The occasional 2-v-1 or 3-v-1ing makes you feel like a ******, but it's fundamentally not fair and the product of gear unbalance. Everyone benefits from bolster, because while EWH-geared may crush fewer recruits, they're also spared the frustration of trying to win with two- or three- recruit-geared players on the team.

 

 

The faster TTK hurts the "feel" of warzone competitiveness, though, in a way that's not helpful. Everyone really dies fast. That means if one team is significantly better than the other, they just melt in one or two GCDs. In the old system, there would have a longer fight and a less frustrating defeat for the defeated, even if the outcome is the same speeded up x 3.

 

I disagree on the part of gear unbalance. Just a personal opinion, but if you get your *** beat repeatedly in bg's and farm the gear, then I think it's extremely unfair that people who didn't go through same the trials and tribulation get the same benefits from it. I do not agree at all with any sort of bolstering in the 55 brackets. Lowbie is a completely different story, but i feel it should be left out of end game. Can't stand getting wrecked for hours at a time to farm the comms? Too bad. But that's just my opinion.

[MelliMelon]

I feel like I've only been in completely unbalanced matches, making it hard to objectively decide on my feelings for post 2.0 skill changes and PvP. However, I feel that bolster is a great thing. "Elite PvPers" (I use that term loosely) already have coordination, awareness, and practice on their side. The last thing new PvPers need is a "~80% gear gap" (BW's quote, not mine). For me, the only good thing about having PvP gear in the game is for some people that is the only reason they play, so it gives me opponents. Maybe I shouldn't be playing an MMO, but giving gear to people with more experience seems silly in regards to fostering a competitive environment.

 

I do feel like TTK is too small, but we'll see what I can glean from even, competitive matches as ranked starts or more people hit higher levels (eg more level 55s, less 50s in 30-54 warzones, and bolster bug fixed).

Edited April 12, 2013 by MelliMelon

[NvrShoutNvr]

I understand what you're getting at here, and by no means do i think BiS farmers should get an (80% gear gap). BUT. I do feel that the people who put in the time and effort to get the gear, should be rewarded with a slight advantage. It's something that translates into how I go about my actual personal life, in school, my job, whatever. You can be awesome at what you do (Playing your class) but if you don't put forth the effort and put in the time (farming gear), then the person that DID put in the time is going to have the advantage. Just an opinion though.

[stringcat]

I understand what you're getting at here, and by no means do i think BiS farmers should get an (80% gear gap). BUT. I do feel that the people who put in the time and effort to get the gear, should be rewarded with a slight advantage..

 

That's the intention for the 55 bracket.

[CadeStive]

Learn to adapt to the environment and changes around you. MMO's aren't fair, either is life.. And it's a bug... Enough people have whined about it as it is, I'm 110% sure they are working on it as we speak. if not say good bye to a good amount of the player base.

[Raazmir]

Look, If you want skill > gear you don't play a wow clone MMO, you play a FPS where everyone moves at the same speed, and has access to the same weapons, and are basically a clone of one another. You don't play a game with 8 different classes each with different abilities and pretend that everything is equal.

 

The basic fact of this type of MMO is that you pvp because you want a gear reward for doing a bunch of pvp, and to get it sooner for doing it well. If you're expecting otherwise it's like buying a Geo Metro and complaining you can't haul huge loads of lumber in it.

[PoliteAssasin]

I know PvP guilds like Grim, Infamous, and ASB can't be too thrilled about this either.

 

Lol I've seen members of all 3 guilds using this exploit. One game we caught on cam too.

[Akon-Or]

Link to the dev post discussing naked bolster:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6121757#post6121757

[Zenithan]

Naked PvP, eh? Sounds... exciting. For about ten minutes. Edited April 12, 2013 by Zenithan

[Mournblood]

Look, If you want skill > gear you don't play a wow clone MMO, you play a FPS where everyone moves at the same speed, and has access to the same weapons, and are basically a clone of one another. You don't play a game with 8 different classes each with different abilities and pretend that everything is equal.

 

The basic fact of this type of MMO is that you pvp because you want a gear reward for doing a bunch of pvp, and to get it sooner for doing it well. If you're expecting otherwise it's like buying a Geo Metro and complaining you can't haul huge loads of lumber in it.

 

I really have to agree with this. There's no such thing as affirmative action in video games, thankfully, and this isn't an FPS (although many FPS games have adopted a similar model to MMOs by rewarding players with ability or feature unlocks the longer and better you play). It's a gear-based MMO where you work toward improving your gear so that you can do bigger and better things. It's a bad precedent to start eliminating gear in one aspect of the game, because it's only a matter of time before those same players make similar demands to remove gear from all aspects of the game. Logically, the argument is the same, and would sound something like this, "Why do I have to be disadvantaged in PvE content just because I can't dedicate as much time to the game as other players who are in top tier PvE gear? I'm excluded from doing <insert tier #> Ops because my PvE gear isn't good enough yet. Please add a Bolster system to PvE like you did for PvP!!" And while that might sound appealing to casual players who feel the gear barrier for Ops is exclusionary and unfair, it will ultimately kill an MMO that's based on it because players will get bored really quickly when they don't have anything tangible to work toward on their characters. If you aren't able to improve your character, most players will find it difficult to remain vested in their character development, and after you've run the same FP/Op a few dozen times, the incentive to keep doing so is gone.

 

In my opinion, this is mostly an entitlement issue of players who either don't have the time to invest into the game due to other obligations or responsibilities (e.g. work, family, school, etc.), or who simply don't want to make the effort to do so and want to do all the cool stuff right away instead of having to wait weeks or months later after grinding out the appropriate gear level. If you read through the dozens upon dozens of QQ threads on the PvP forums on the subject, nearly all of them are identical in that they didn't feel it was fair to have to grind out EWH to be competitive. I am of the belief that effort should be commensurate with reward. If you put in the time and effort, you should be rewarded better than someone who does not.

 

For the lower bracket, not requiring PvP gear makes sense since it removes the entry barrier and promotes more participation, but it should be optional, and having it should still provide a slight advantage. That does not mean they shoud have factored out Expertise completely in the Bolster system and basically pissed off nearly every PvPer who spent the last year or more grinding top tier PvP gear only to have it become obsolete literally overnight. Yes, we all knew the gear would get phased out eventually as you levelled up in the new expansion and got better gear, but that's the way MMOs are supposed to work. The way BW handled this was extremely lazy, and of course it's not even working correctly. For the level cap bracket (55), you'll eventually start seeing the same complaints 6 months from now when players cry about how they are getting demolished in PvP because they aren't in top tier PvP gear yet. I think we can all be honest and acknowledge that gear progression inevitably results in a gear gap, especially in PvP, but there are far better ways BW could have addressed that (e.g. cross server queues which in turn could facilitate gear matched WZs) than by simply eliminating it.

[bsbrad]

You do realize there is a case to be made that giving better gear to better players is completely destabilizing the PVP aspect of the game as this leads to the stomping of newbies and causes elitism to creep in.

 

All WOW-clones fall into this trap as they need to give out gear to give people a reason to stay in the game, and while PVE gear is needed to beat the higher level bosses due to enrage timers, mechanics and how much damage they dish the same cannot be said for PVP.

 

In PVP the best players will rise to the top and while I am not advocating a complete removal of gear based PVP progression the tailoring down of the difference between an entry level PVPer and someone who dedicates 100+ hours a week is justified. The person dedicating that much time to PVP should know there class inside out and be able to still kill the casual PVPer in a 1v1 most of the time. The problem with adding in a gear based mechanic into PVP is that the same PVPer with 100+ hours is now in the new tier of Ludicrous armor and is taking on 3 (maybe 4) people at a time and winning (worse still the "elite" PVPer then chastises and insults the other players). Those that say it only takes a week to get to full PVP gear, okay start a new 50 and without using the legacy gear exploit or playing 100+ hours a week explain how.

 

This is the reason why you dont see many new faces in high end PVP before 2.0 as they got stomped on constantly and although everyone (except the first PVPers) had to go through this grind of being stomped on, the incentives to your casual PVPer is to just ignore this side of the game and will be more likely to leave the game (thereby losing BW customers).

 

Bioware are trying to make the entry point into the WZs easier for casual players (as that is where the majority of their playerbase is). So the "casuals" can also enjoy the PVP aspect of the game. While I do agree that the TTK needs to be toned down a lot (it shouldn't take 2-3 GCDs to kill someone) and the bolster system needs a bit of tinkering but over the next couple of patches they will find a sweet spot which will make PVP enjoyable to all and not just the 1%ers (I include myself in this bracket by the way, but I know new 50s hate PVP with a vengenance as it was before)

 

I still don't know why PVPers still think they need to overgear the opposing PVPers to have fun.

 

In PVE even if you know your class back to front and are the best healer/tank/dps team you will not be able to take out the HM/NM ops without the gear as that is how they are tailored. In PVP the gear should be a non-issue, the skill of the player should shine through. Until I got into EWH/WH on my Sniper I felt there was nothing I was contributing to the team eventhough I knew the WZs.

 

Sorry for the wall of text.....

 

** Edit: Forgot to mention as it stands now with the bolster system, PVE armor > PVP, so I hope the PVPers like doing operations

Edited April 12, 2013 by bsbrad

[stringcat]

Looks like they're considering adjusting TTK.

 

I still don't know why PVPers still think they need to overgear the opposing PVPers to have fun.

 

I PVP a lot and have been EWH for a long time. Removing gear progression wouldn't affect the amount I PVP. (Which is, er, "too much." I probably lose more comms to being comm-capped than I manage to spend buying medpacs and adrenals. )

 

But I can see it. If you PVP moderately but are not super-hardcore, gearing up is a big deal. You spend time in recruit getting destroyed, then war hero still at a slight disadvantage etc....then finally you are on par with the best-geared. When you provide extrinsic rewards for engaging in an activity, the activity itself loses some of its intrinsic draw -- people do the activity for the reward, rather than the fun. But now the "reward" has been suddenly yanked away. For those who don't PVP too much, gear-grinding in adverse circumstances may represent 90% of their total PVP experience. I can see why it would feel unfair.

 

Many who don't PVP a huge amount are also less practiced, so they can't compensate as well for removal of the gear advantage they worked for. They had a temporary advantage over some players because of their gear and they were on the other end of that gear-gap for a long time. I can see why it would leave a bad taste in the mouth.

 

 

Edit: I don't apologize for my walls of text.

Edited April 12, 2013 by stringcat

[bsbrad]

What if we make the reward "cookies", I am sure there is a friendly member around here who will dish out cookies.

 

In all seriousness, if they implemented a ladder system to show the better players, not sure how they will count the points but this should be the only incentive a PVPer needs. Going up the leaderboard.

 

Doing Tournaments like ASB/BSR were running is also a good incentive for PVPers and if BW could put a system in place where there are knockout tourneys with a prize (new armor skin, credits, whatever...).

[LaVall]

I know I certainly don't enjoy roflstomping people who are at such a gear disadvantage that it doesn't matter how good they are, there's no way they can win. I spent my time in recruit gear getting stomped the second I entered battle and that was even less enjoyable. At the same time, bettering your character through experience and gear is what keeps PVP from getting stale. I think with the previous tiers they had it right with the difference between WH and EWH. The difference wasn't large and a superior player in WH would win against an inferior player in EWH every time. However the difference was enough to give the EWH a slight edge in a battle of similar skill. Getting that BiS configuration gave people something to work towards. However the gap between recruit and BiS EWH was huge, especially since you can't min/max recruit and it's pointless to augment. I was far from BiS and I'm only of average skill, but I've been able to solo 3 undergeared players at once, several times. That is too much of a gap.

 

TL;DR - there needs to be a gear gap at all 3 tiers, just not a very big one.

[Raazmir]

Given that properly re-modded WH is superior to completely unremodded EWH I find the argument that there was a ton of time investment involved in gearing up for pvp edit: Uncompelling, i find it uncompelling. Sorry kind of distracted today.

 

If there's a problem with the way things were its a problem in education for the up and comers about remodding, converting to ranked, and how to buy your gear. I turned in my wh rifle with all the mods still in it for the ewh, right at 50, bought my relics first like a nard, and still managed to fight my way up to WH within a couple of weeks because of the daily/weekly reward.

 

It really doesn't take that long.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Raazmir

[Targarion]

I really have to agree with this. There's no such thing as affirmative action in video games, thankfully, and this isn't an FPS (although many FPS games have adopted a similar model to MMOs by rewarding players with ability or feature unlocks the longer and better you play). It's a gear-based MMO where you work toward improving your gear so that you can do bigger and better things. It's a bad precedent to start eliminating gear in one aspect of the game, because it's only a matter of time before those same players make similar demands to remove gear from all aspects of the game. Logically, the argument is the same, and would sound something like this, "Why do I have to be disadvantaged in PvE content just because I can't dedicate as much time to the game as other players who are in top tier PvE gear? I'm excluded from doing <insert tier #> Ops because my PvE gear isn't good enough yet. Please add a Bolster system to PvE like you did for PvP!!" And while that might sound appealing to casual players who feel the gear barrier for Ops is exclusionary and unfair, it will ultimately kill an MMO that's based on it because players will get bored really quickly when they don't have anything tangible to work toward on their characters. If you aren't able to improve your character, most players will find it difficult to remain vested in their character development, and after you've run the same FP/Op a few dozen times, the incentive to keep doing so is gone.

 

In my opinion, this is mostly an entitlement issue of players who either don't have the time to invest into the game due to other obligations or responsibilities (e.g. work, family, school, etc.), or who simply don't want to make the effort to do so and want to do all the cool stuff right away instead of having to wait weeks or months later after grinding out the appropriate gear level. If you read through the dozens upon dozens of QQ threads on the PvP forums on the subject, nearly all of them are identical in that they didn't feel it was fair to have to grind out EWH to be competitive. I am of the belief that effort should be commensurate with reward. If you put in the time and effort, you should be rewarded better than someone who does not.

 

For the lower bracket, not requiring PvP gear makes sense since it removes the entry barrier and promotes more participation, but it should be optional, and having it should still provide a slight advantage. That does not mean they shoud have factored out Expertise completely in the Bolster system and basically pissed off nearly every PvPer who spent the last year or more grinding top tier PvP gear only to have it become obsolete literally overnight. Yes, we all knew the gear would get phased out eventually as you levelled up in the new expansion and got better gear, but that's the way MMOs are supposed to work. The way BW handled this was extremely lazy, and of course it's not even working correctly. For the level cap bracket (55), you'll eventually start seeing the same complaints 6 months from now when players cry about how they are getting demolished in PvP because they aren't in top tier PvP gear yet. I think we can all be honest and acknowledge that gear progression inevitably results in a gear gap, especially in PvP, but there are far better ways BW could have addressed that (e.g. cross server queues which in turn could facilitate gear matched WZs) than by simply eliminating it.

 

You make some valid points about grinding gear, but take into account that the majority of fresh 50's (now 55's) are alts from other players who already have established mains. So it isn't accurate to assume that every fresh 50 needs to "earn" their place in the PVP arena.

[EFSoupy]

A lot of people look at the negatives of gear disparity, without looking at all the positives. It's been mentioned that a grind gives us something to work on (long term goals with accomplishments along the way), a sense of progression, a reason to stay in a wz with a crumby team (gotta get your comms) and it also gives us something to push against to grow. Playing at a disadvantage is how we improve. I think such a dismal difference that you can't survive to learn is a problem, but gearing is your friend.

[bsbrad]

A lot of people look at the negatives of gear disparity, without looking at all the positives. It's been mentioned that a grind gives us something to work on (long term goals with accomplishments along the way), a sense of progression, a reason to stay in a wz with a crumby team (gotta get your comms) and it also gives us something to push against to grow. Playing at a disadvantage is how we improve. I think such a dismal difference that you can't survive to learn is a problem, but gearing is your friend.

 

Again why does the incentive have to be better gear, it is not like the major PVPers need the advantage. The incentive could be unique skins, speeders, titles etc... that you have to grind for. Giving better tiered gear is just an excuse for allowing people who did the PVP grind first to stomp on those that didn't.