It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[Dronp]

Didnt read any of the thread except for the OP.

 

I can GUARANTEE OP was playing like trash bringing his/her group down in WOW once. Gets called out on it, gets defensive 'IT'S MY $15 A MONTH', gets kicked.

 

Now has an irrational anger against mods and dps meters, instead of realizing it's all their fault in the first place for playing poorly.

 

There's an easy easy fix for "kids making fun of your low damage", people.

 

GET

 

BETTER.

 

 

Problem solved. Now bring on the mods and the macros, SWTOR's UI and AH really really need to be custom-done.

 

Pretty much...the only people against dmg meters are people at the bottom of them. Some people dont find it fun carrying people who do 10x less dps than they could be and carrying afkers. Some people actually enjoy playing well and having data to improve on their performance...a tough concept to understand I know.

 

And you can still dps the right target and be top dps...its called playing good. You're not gonna get kicked from any groups for doing slightly less dps than the guy focusing the boss the whole time. In fact the other guy will likely get kicked first for being an idiot. What you will get kicked for is doing 1k dps when everyone else is doing 10k. Unless your the guy doing 1k you shouldnt have an issue with damage meters.

[dozerking]

Raises hand in favor of Recount mod for TOR. Great for guilds.

[Colobulous]

Fair enough, just the anti-meter crowd tend to throw in so many "what if <this> scenario" to try and confuse the matter. Many don't know the true ability of today's meters. Was just trying to clarify that they can be still useful if party members chance mid instance.

 

And I was just trying to clarify if they were even doing something as simple as resetting the meter when somebody new came in.

 

More out of idle curiosity than anything else, not like the situation is resolvable. The instance is LONG over.

[Nendouno]

What people need to understand is that those who want to get even half serious about PvE needs a damage meter. It's essential. Without one you can't really see how much damage you are doing, thus improving your damage output will be quite difficult.

 

A DPS meter is there to help you improve in your ways of doing damage and/or healing.

 

It's not just for elitists, it's for people who want to improve. People who don't like to drag their group down because they have no idea how much damage they are doing.

 

And how are the good guilds suppose to know who is doing good at bad damage wise if they don't have anything to measure it with? It's not like they can monitor every player to see what skills they are using at all times. They need a damage meter to see who is failing and who is not.

 

And about people getting kicked. That is only in extreme cases when people are doing insanely low damage. If you are not terribad then you won't have much of a problem.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Nendouno

[Colobulous]

Pretty much...the only people against dmg meters are people at the bottom of them.

 

No, no, every single person against meters is actually somebody who is always at the top of them and participates in world-first kills on a regular basis. They say so themselves, so it must be true.

 

Half of them don't even gear properly, because Gear doesn't matter compared to their awesome skill.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[Scerion]

Which is why trying to stop it is pointless, and instead the better way to go is to just implement it.

 

Why put people through a needless bother?

 

It's hardly a "bother" and for specs that rely on taking damage to perform, or whose dps is related to the HP of the enemy or themselves, it's a lot better than whacking on a passive dummy whose HP never changes.

 

The point is that people are moaning that they can't check their DPS when it's pretty easy for anyone with a brain. It's also not forcing other people to hand over their combat stats in realtime in PuGs. DPS meters are uneccesary, and only used for people trying to stroke their own egos or troll other players.

 

If you want to play a game that's more like WoW, go play WoW. Nobody will miss you.

[Kurnea]

Like I said, he came in after everybody else, if you didn't control for that, it wouldn't mean much on its own.

 

Like I said, he beat a boss with us, and I assume that's where the data came from. Where it based on the entire encounter, the guy who dropped would've been showing as well, but to my memory the dropped person didn't show.

Heck, even taking little damage in a single boss fight doesn't mean much, there are some boss fights where that'll matter, some where it won't.

With those same fights where damage taken doesn't mean much, a little less dps isn't going to matter, either. If someone's going to use dps meters to nit-pick over just dps, I think it's just as valid to nit-pick over survivability.

 

And I was just trying to clarify if they were even doing something as simple as resetting the meter when somebody new came in.

If the meter wasn't reset, then the person who dropped would've shown up on the meters Edited December 21, 2011 by Kurnea

[owenthorn]

saying its a "priority" is not the same as saying "it will be in the game, no doubt, soon, no question about it"

 

you are reading your own answer from his words

 

I really doubt getting a dps meter id any priority right, given the billion of bugs to be fixed first

[RachelAnne]

Keep telling yourself that. Bioware doesn't want to make another "camp reject" MMORPG designed to cater exclusively to people thrown out of WoW. They're going world-class and that means addons and meters.

 

If I would be a game designer, then I would make an MMO that is not like any other. Right now BW does has a lot what other games dont have.

 

Reasons to actually play the game.

 

I never had any trouble at wow with getting kicked, low damage (I am a tank anyways) or whatever - but I saw how bad people got treaten by "kids" who did run these addons. I had an addon running too which did show me the amount of intercepts, damage taken etc. and believe me when I say, most of these "insulting group members" did take more damage then I did or didnt do anything else beside´s nuking.

 

 

Still I couldnt do anything to "rescue" the poor healer that got kicked by the 3 dps etc. Meters are mostly used wrong, those who think they are a god because they did 30k dps are just bad´s who bring more trouble to the group than help. I wouldnt mind if they just make it harder, wow is a walk in the park anyways...

 

Their behaivour is disturbing, they always insult those who didnt do anything wrong - showing their dps, claiming they are gods and others suck.

 

 

If BW does add addons here, it will be the same result. Thats why I think that addons should be enabled or disabled by the player himself, if they are added. Those who want to be tracked can, those who wont cant.

 

 

Simple solution, everyone is happy except those who use addons for insults.

[Caelrie]

If you want to play a game that's more like WoW, go play WoW. Nobody will miss you.

 

Bioware will, which is why they're attempting to keep as many ex-WoW players as possible.

[Nendouno]

It's hardly a "bother" and for specs that rely on taking damage to perform, or whose dps is related to the HP of the enemy or themselves, it's a lot better than whacking on a passive dummy whose HP never changes.

 

The point is that people are moaning that they can't check their DPS when it's pretty easy for anyone with a brain. It's also not forcing other people to hand over their combat stats in realtime in PuGs. DPS meters are uneccesary, and only used for people trying to stroke their own egos or troll other players.

 

If you want to play a game that's more like WoW, go play WoW. Nobody will miss you.

 

/facepalm....

[TradewindNQ]

It's hardly a "bother" and for specs that rely on taking damage to perform, or whose dps is related to the HP of the enemy or themselves, it's a lot better than whacking on a passive dummy whose HP never changes.

 

The point is that people are moaning that they can't check their DPS when it's pretty easy for anyone with a brain. It's also not forcing other people to hand over their combat stats in realtime in PuGs. DPS meters are uneccesary, and only used for people trying to stroke their own egos or troll other players.

 

If you want to play a game that's more like WoW, go play WoW. Nobody will miss you.

 

Yeah let's make everyone just write down on a piece of paper, a running tally of how many abilities they're using, what sort of proc rates they're getting from abilities and items, discern how much of a percentage one ability is contributing to their damage as a whole and whether or not they were effective in distributing damage to fights that may have Adds involved.

 

So again, I ask you why are you against others having it? Nobody's forcing you to have it.

 

I play both WoW and SWToR and intend to continue doing so. As a guild we use meters and online logs to make improvements to how we approach things. As a result we shaved off almost a minute on our Ultraxion kill and had 19 people rank in the top 200 on various fights for our raid last night. I'd say that these tools provide beneficial feedback for people who want to use them.

Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ

[CyberData]

I use meters to evaluate my personal play. To evaluate one spec compared to another, to evaluate DPS rotations. To evaluate class changes via patches. As of right now, I have NO idea if I'm doing good dps compared to the healer, tank or someone spamming a basic attack.

 

Let me suggest this: If someone is being a kid and spamming their meter in party chat and talking about how uber they are: Ignore List them. I've done it in WoW. I hate, hate, hate e-peen strokers. And typically I'm top dps, but I don't spam my meters. Ever. Sure, once in a while I'll crack a smile when someone said "Wow, nice dps hunter!" but I didn't use meters for ego.

 

I use them because they're a very valuable tool for evaluation.

 

And not just for measuring damage. They measure damage TAKEN. So it's helpful to know after wiping 5 times that there's a dps member taking more damage than the main tank.

 

Or a DPS member outhealing a main healer. It helps to know these things.

 

I think the fact that many here would rather the ENTIRE subscriber base go without such a valuable tool just because of one or two instances of someone spamming it annoyingly is extremely selfish.

 

If you don't like it, don't use it.

[Pokeytehpenguin]

I find it fun that I get instantly insulted by the elitist´s here, proves my point very well why I dont want such meters in this game.

 

You are a great help to BW to understand our concerns, keep the insults coming!

 

How dare you call me elitist! My monocle nearly broke from the shock of such harsh discourse, luckily its fall was cushioned by my amply filled snifter of brandy.

 

I mean, I can't go around insulting the unwashed masses poor MMO performance without a gentlemen's brandy, even the thought is just...just..uncivilized.

 

Now, if you don't mind, me and my friends have a date on my yacht, where we will gather to discuss how you and your poor DPS will never measure up to our standards, laugh approvingly at our conclusions, then attack aliens with laser beams and vibro swords.

[Yfelsung]

It's hardly a "bother" and for specs that rely on taking damage to perform, or whose dps is related to the HP of the enemy or themselves, it's a lot better than whacking on a passive dummy whose HP never changes.

 

The point is that people are moaning that they can't check their DPS when it's pretty easy for anyone with a brain. It's also not forcing other people to hand over their combat stats in realtime in PuGs. DPS meters are uneccesary, and only used for people trying to stroke their own egos or troll other players.

 

If you want to play a game that's more like WoW, go play WoW. Nobody will miss you.

 

Damage meters existed before WoW and will exist after WoW.

 

I don't want to play WoW, no desire at all, I love SWTOR.

 

I would like to ensure I am pulling my weight in a group.

 

I want to make sure my rotation is optimal for threat and DPS production as a tank.

 

I CANNOT optimize these things without information.

 

It is about performance pride. You might not understand the concept of pride. Don't take it away from me.

[Scerion]

I hate to break it to you but that's more an argument that your raiders are undisciplined meter whores than it is an argument against their use to begin with.

 

Or are we going for the prohibition type arguments now? Restrict it for everyone because there are people who abuse it?

 

They were actually a damn good raid team, who performed a lot better once the distraction of a DPS (and HPS) meter was removed. ALL DPS will succumb to trying to beat the other DPS - it's a game, and people are competitive - every raid team or PuG I was ever in, where DPS meters were in use had the same problem with people focusing on that rather than the fight. And I was raiding for over 5 years - clearing every raid at-level up to Firelands when I quit.

 

The reason I quit was mostly the terrible community that's now in WoW, partially created by addons like recount, gearscore and the other e-peen tools. (cross realm random dungeon finder was probably the biggest problem though)

[GalacticKegger]

Why shouldn't they?

 

I (try) to play as effectively as I can, and when I'm doing group missions, I want to play with other people who share my paradigm and approach to the game.

 

Why should I not be allowed that?

The beauty of this or any MMO is freedom of choice to play with those you prefer to play with. No tool is deserving of making that choice for you. Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[genesiser]

I like damage meters. To me the best part about raiding in wow was looking at worldoflogs to see how I compared to other enhance shaman.

 

The guild I was in before I cancelled it today to play this used damage meters for competition between the dps in our 10 man raid and we used to place bets.

 

In random heroics I would pull 35k dps and others would pull 10k. I never linked it and talked smack, but I just found it amusing.

 

The best part is hitting a target dummy with one figuring out the best rotation for dps.

--

 

Now yes, I understand story is important in this game. But what's going to happen later on when you've seen the story and you are farming raids for gear. You get gear but you can't even look at damage meters to notice a difference. Ya, your abilities will hit for like 50 more damage or whatever when you hit, but with your damage as a whole you won't be able to get a true feel of how much stronger you are getting.

 

Damage meters provide that sense of strength you get when you get better gear.

 

Anyway, I say add them. Sure some people don't like them, but lots of people do. If you end up being a raider in this game then chances are you can't live without them.

[Colobulous]

They were actually a damn good raid team, who performed a lot better once the distraction of a DPS (and HPS) meter was removed. ALL DPS will succumb to trying to beat the other DPS - it's a game, and people are competitive - every raid team or PuG I was ever in, where DPS meters were in use had the same problem with people focusing on that rather than the fight. And I was raiding for over 5 years - clearing every raid at-level up to Firelands when I quit.

 

And yet no raid team or PUG I was in had that problem in any significant way, strangely everybody was quite able to hide the DPS meter during combat. I wonder why.

 

The reason I quit was mostly the terrible community that's now in WoW, partially created by addons like recount, gearscore and the other e-peen tools. (cross realm random dungeon finder was probably the biggest problem though)

 

Hah-hah. You believe it was created by the Addons. It wasn't. It was always there.

[darthjerro]

Because when we called her on it, she got uppity.

 

You don't spam one ability because you don't know better, you spam one ability when you're being lazy on purpose.

 

You people seem to forget that the primary offenders of low DPS are people who are PURPOSELY BEING LAZY.

 

Yes, it's a game. Guess what one of the primary goals of a game is? Victory.

 

A game is always more fun when you win.

 

A win is always better when it is utter and absolute domination.

 

One should aspire to be good at everything they do, game or not.

 

Exactly this. Ive been preaching this for years. Yet what most chuckleheads dont seem to grasp is that it doesnt MATTER that its a video game or not, you still have to try because there are people out there( me , for instance ) that dont get any fun out of a game unless we are playing the very best we can and the people around us are playing the very best they can......

[TradewindNQ]

They were actually a damn good raid team, who performed a lot better once the distraction of a DPS (and HPS) meter was removed. ALL DPS will succumb to trying to beat the other DPS - it's a game, and people are competitive - every raid team or PuG I was ever in, where DPS meters were in use had the same problem with people focusing on that rather than the fight. And I was raiding for over 5 years - clearing every raid at-level up to Firelands when I quit.

 

The reason I quit was mostly the terrible community that's now in WoW, partially created by addons like recount, gearscore and the other e-peen tools. (cross realm random dungeon finder was probably the biggest problem though)

 

I'm not discounting that, but it doesn't diminish my point. If they couldn't do what they needed to do because of distractions during an encounter by recount, it doesn't mean they were bad, they just lacked discipline.

[Mysfit]

fantastic, I can finally enjoy flashpoints without some kid linking his meter every 3 mins to brag.

 

what a blast, thanks for not including a combat log bioware!

 

oh so true.

[Nendouno]

They were actually a damn good raid team, who performed a lot better once the distraction of a DPS (and HPS) meter was removed. ALL DPS will succumb to trying to beat the other DPS - it's a game, and people are competitive - every raid team or PuG I was ever in, where DPS meters were in use had the same problem with people focusing on that rather than the fight. And I was raiding for over 5 years - clearing every raid at-level up to Firelands when I quit.

 

The reason I quit was mostly the terrible community that's now in WoW, partially created by addons like recount, gearscore and the other e-peen tools. (cross realm random dungeon finder was probably the biggest problem though)

 

You know that those people without the dps meter that you somehow say did more dps than the ones with (no idea if that's even true, but let's say I believe you) actually wouldn't be able to do so if there wasn't a dps meter in the first place?

 

These people know their dps rotation simply because someone sat down with their dps meter in front of them testing every possibility of doing the most dps. Then that got passed on to others as the "standard dps routine".

 

We're not saying that you have to have your nose stuck up in a dps meter at all times, but it's a good measurement that will teach people how to do the most amount of damage.

[Colobulous]

Like I said, he beat a boss with us, and I assume that's where the data came from. Where it based on the entire encounter, the guy who dropped would've been showing as well, but to my memory the dropped person didn't show.

 

But you might have missed it. Or forgotten it. Or something else.

 

With those same fights where damage taken doesn't mean much, a little less dps isn't going to matter, either. If someone's going to use dps meters to nit-pick over just dps, I think it's just as valid to nit-pick over survivability.

 

Well, we're nit-picking over a vague anecdote from who knows how long ago, so who are we to complain?

 

[Friendzie]

This game will probably fail if it doesn't add the basic tools other MMOs enjoy. I know people don't like to feel any pressure to perform, but you're playing a social game. If you can't handle criticism, feedback or discussion, the problem is on your end. People will get upset at you in any context if you aren't helping. If you go camping and don't help with anything, people won't like you. Without any damage tracking, nobody knows who's not helping in SWTOR without resorting to guesswork. Say the tank dies. How do we know whether the healer or the tank could have avoided it? Right now, we do not know. In other MMOs you just check logs and see what killed the tank and why. This is something very important! I have played some flashpoints already where we wiped and nobody in the group will ever know why we wiped because we can't look it up.