Skillett Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Since when does not having a damage meter stop people from bragging or being childish? They will just find another reason to do it. It really is not very fun to have no idea how well you are doing. Without that internal challenge to better myself it feels like I am just mashing keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshalleck Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I won't argue with you, but I do know that people misuse damage meters. Sure. And those people will abuse others even if they don't have a DPS meter. It's the person who is the problem, not the tool. And as I said a moment ago, having data at your fingertips that shows you're doing exactly what you should be doing will bring great justice on those who would accuse you of slacking. Without that data available, you're just going to be called a slacker and removed from a group based on someone's whim and perception, and you'll have no recourse or effective argument against it. Is that what you prefer? Fair play to you if so. It's sad that this very fear of elitism is going to reinforce the very same play environment that they claim to want to avoid--baseless and unfair accusations being slung about. Again, combat log parsers would show the truth of it. Don't fear them. Embrace empirical, metrics-based gameplay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phishass Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I dont know about a dmg meter, but i'm gonna suggest a "combat dummy droid", which has options on it like lvl/mob type/resistance/stats etc. and also a timer. When set, you can simply attack the droid till the timer runs off; and it then gives you a detailed report on your dps/crits/etc., whatever you normally have on a dmg meter. I myself had the experience of grouping up with ******* in my 6 years of wow play, and i know how annoying one can be with a dmg meter obsession, but i think there should be some way to see how well you are doing with your current talents/rotations/playstyle etc. Totally agree. A combat droid would be great I’m actually surprised that there isn’t one already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alerum Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 How about this scenerio---adult gets home after a very long day at work, eats dinner, puts kids in bed, pours a glass of wine and heads to the computer to run a flashpoint or two, having fun in the process and wants a nice relaxing evening. This person generally knows his/her class and does their best in the group. Insert angsty DPS meter type who starts calling people out on the run, even if it is going well and mobs are dying. Fun night? Well, you can certainly kick the troublemaker but it sure diminishes enjoyment of the game quite a bit. One of the main reasons why WoW lost its appeal for me. And no, I'm not a "baddie" or person that needs to be carried. I may not be the highest DPSer but I do my best and am generally middle of the pack or a bit higher. Thank goodness I've found some good guilds along that way and can play with other mature adults who just want to unwind a bit after work, etc. I can relate to this. When I used the LFD tool in WoW there were always these idiots from some distant server who would ruin an instance. It reminds me of a six year old constantly saying, "Look at me!" I do think this tool helps raid leaders though. Maybe they could implement something where you have to give permission to have your DPS or HPS recorded. In a raid you're usually with a guild so of course you'd give permission as you have more of an intimate relation with the folks you're with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerift Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Its gonna be fun to guess who's AFK watching their favorite T.V. Program while trying to down heroics raids Hey, no auto attack. Something BW did very, very right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaluria Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Sure. And those people will abuse others even if they don't have a DPS meter. It's the person who is the problem, not the tool. And as I said a moment ago, having data at your fingertips that shows you're doing exactly what you should be doing will bring great justice on those who would accuse you of slacking. Without that data available, you're just going to be called a slacker and removed from a group based on someone's whim and perception, and you'll have no recourse or effective argument against it. Is that what you prefer? Fair play to you if so. It's sad that this very fear of elitism is going to reinforce the very same play environment that they claim to want to avoid--baseless and unfair accusations being slung about. Again, combat log parsers would show the truth of it. Don't fear them. Embrace empirical, metrics-based gameplay! Relying on the numbers takes the fun out of a GAME, you do realize that before wow people wrote the data down and dumped it into a OUTSIDE source. These programs are not needed or wanted in a gaming environment that is so heavily story based. When you introduce them you turn this into a numbers game. I do not fault you for wanting to improve. Why give the abusers the tools to abuse, if you want to know your damage as well as the parties damage wait till after the fight and use a parser. I could give a rats tail about being kicked from a group who is being run by a lil neopleon. sp? I probably didn't want to group with them to begin with. GAMES are made to have fun in not a second job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DroidzRule Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 We did fine in other guilds/MMO's raiding without damage meters for quite some time. There is no reason for them. IMO, you start adding damage meters and advanced macros... you might as well be playing a spread sheet... it just becomes min/maxing and making sure you as a human, function as close to a machine as possible. /Yawn... If you want to figure out why something is not working, I rarely find the "meters" to be helpful. Try using the little thing between your ears. It's called a brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberRod Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I don't know what a damage meter is. I've played City of Heroes and LOTRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshalleck Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 These programs are not needed or wanted in a gaming environment that is so heavily story based. This is opinion, not fact, and it does not further the discussion in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suuupertrooper Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 How about this scenerio---adult gets home after a very long day at work, eats dinner, puts kids in bed, pours a glass of wine and heads to the computer to run a flashpoint or two, having fun in the process and wants a nice relaxing evening. This person generally knows his/her class and does their best in the group. Insert angsty DPS meter type who starts calling people out on the run, even if it is going well and mobs are dying. Fun night? Well, you can certainly kick the troublemaker but it sure diminishes enjoyment of the game quite a bit. One of the main reasons why WoW lost its appeal for me. And no, I'm not a "baddie" or person that needs to be carried. I may not be the highest DPSer but I do my best and am generally middle of the pack or a bit higher. Thank goodness I've found some good guilds along that way and can play with other mature adults who just want to unwind a bit after work, etc. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshalleck Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 We did fine in other guilds/MMO's raiding without damage meters for quite some time. There is no reason for them. IMO, you start adding damage meters and advanced macros... you might as well be playing a spread sheet... it just becomes min/maxing and making sure you as a human, function as close to a machine as possible. /Yawn... If you want to figure out why something is not working, I rarely find the "meters" to be helpful. Try using the little thing between your ears. It's called a brain. If you don't want to use the tools should they become available, you don't have to. However, what recourse is there currently for those who want them? Where is the equity? If this thread proves anything it's that there's a good number of people who don't care about spreadsheets and data, and they will always be out there making guilds where parsers are banned and min-maxers ostracized. You will be able to join them and intuit the gameplay to your heart's content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exodus_umvs Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Its gonna be fun to guess who's AFK watching their favorite T.V. Program while trying to down heroics raids you look at their resource pool..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockDevil Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Damage meters are not a must but a combat log absolutely 100% has to be in an MMO that is not Hello Kitty like. It is not just about how much damage your attacks and crits are doing on a specific target but also the damage you are recieving from a boss or other players. Without this information it is far more difficult to fine tune your character to be more efficient. For top tier groups it is absolutley essential and the game will not retain the competition oriented players for any length of time without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 you look at their resource pool..... He was exagerating. His resource pool won't indicate whether he's doing 500 dps or 4k because he doesn't know what skills to use and in what order/how to handle procs/if he interrupts etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaluria Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 This is opinion, not fact, and it does not further the discussion in any way. How do you figure an opinion does not further the discussion? You are giving yours by your above statement. You are arguing for the sake of having the last word and bullying your opinion on everyone who disagrees with you. I happen to feel that damage meters and 3 party programs that give access to the chat function or other peoples information is not needed. I say use a parser after you log out to find out data. Otherwise it interferes with my ability to have a good time in a GAME, and when you spam chat with your findings it is SPAM and everytime I see that I will report it. Because as far as I am concerned your right to know my numbers is an invasion of my privacy as a player of this game. I will vote for you knowing your own numbers but not others unless they give you permission. <watch how fast you will disagree with this last statement> because no matter how you argue it, it's really not your own numbers you are concerned with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 you look at their resource pool..... People can even fake that by spamming a single ability that is semi-useful and uses a decent amount of resource. I used to be a raid lead, I had to learn to look for that stuff even with meters. We had one healer who'd also rank last in healing, but never by too much. In combat you saw lots of casting going on. Eventually a got a mod that showed exactly what spells they were casting. She was casting a crappy AoE heal over and over and over again, only ONE SPELL, and much of her healing was overhealing. Without those mods, I wouldn't have been able to tell that and her free ride would continue. She got booted hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzrknight Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Well dont really care , the good side is that at least on low lvl people does not really notice if i dps or not or who dps , so i just walk and click buttons rotations are for dedicated people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narwan Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 People can even fake that by spamming a single ability that is semi-useful and uses a decent amount of resource. I used to be a raid lead, I had to learn to look for that stuff even with meters. We had one healer who'd also rank last in healing, but never by too much. In combat you saw lots of casting going on. Eventually a got a mod that showed exactly what spells they were casting. She was casting a crappy AoE heal over and over and over again, only ONE SPELL, and much of her healing was overhealing. Without those mods, I wouldn't have been able to tell that and her free ride would continue. She got booted hard. Cant tell if you are in support of addons or not? You seem to be the exact reason people dont want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Cant tell if you are in support of addons or not? You seem to be the exact reason people dont want them. I am supporting it. You should not be able to get into a raid guild and get a free ride from people dedicated to playing their best. You don't have to join a raid guild with my policies. You can ignore someone spamming DPS charts in a group. I can't accurately assess the quality of my raid without tools. You have the option to ignore the existence of DPS meters. Don't tell me you actually believe someone should be allowed a free ride in a raid group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meskel Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Who needs damage meters. If you pull aggro on the primary target, then it's enough Dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Who needs damage meters. If you pull aggro on the primary target, then it's enough Dps. Ok, i'll spam taunt as a dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkiii Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Nope. It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid. What's that? No response? It's ok. I can name about 5 guilds that used it as a tool to teach players how to improve their game play to better performance in raids. One guild I can name was a top 15 world progression guild I was an Officer in (WoW). I used a meter to help our Holy Paladins smooth out rotations to get better results. The progression rank is proof of such methods working. At no time did we kick someone for lack of performance on meters. 99% of the time, people were kicked for standing in fire repeatedly or not grasping the mechanics of a fight. But by all means, sir, continue labeling guilds who use meters "control freaks" if it makes you feel better. I can assure you, getting a world first kill is more satisfying than being the top DPS on one random boss fight. Edited December 21, 2011 by Alkiii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerd Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Nope. It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid. What's that? No response? It's ok. Stop sucking then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dendore Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I don't know why these threads keep popping up. It's already been determined baddies don't want damage meters so they can hide in obscurity. Now they don't even have the tools to TRY to learn. Enjoy it while you can. They will be implemented. If you can't learn your class before they are, people will have even less sympathy for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptoniic Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 People can even fake that by spamming a single ability that is semi-useful and uses a decent amount of resource. I used to be a raid lead, I had to learn to look for that stuff even with meters. We had one healer who'd also rank last in healing, but never by too much. In combat you saw lots of casting going on. Eventually a got a mod that showed exactly what spells they were casting. She was casting a crappy AoE heal over and over and over again, only ONE SPELL, and much of her healing was overhealing. Without those mods, I wouldn't have been able to tell that and her free ride would continue. She got booted hard. So one healer just spamming 1 skill the whole time finished just below your other healers? 1. id be worried about your other healers because they should be way above the spammer. 2. simply booting the person is what a lot of people have the problem with. from the situation described here, at no point did you inform this person that this was an ineffective way to heal. 3. Neglecting number 2 makes you a terrible raid leader. 4. spamming aoe heals can be effective if your roll is purely a group healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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