marcelo_sdk Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 From TFU unleashed novel, the Vader being disinterested part was the 2nd not the 1st. Also while yes Vader was gripped, that wasn't the end of the fight he could have gotten out of it, he was raising his arms. Impaling Vader? Please...Vader has survived impalments with a saber before. The generator was what ended the fight. That's the kind of thing I don't understand. If you accepts EU as part of SW history, than you can't think that the guys from the movies will always win. We saw the duel, we read the duel, I can't understand how someone, afetr seeing all this, can give any excuse that Marek didn't defeat Vader. And he defeated Palpatine, going back there. Basically you said that they didn't engage in combat, just because they didn't clash their sabers. Marek was able to break down Palpatine with the Force, you think that's a samll thing? And the cutscenes are canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 That's the kind of thing I don't understand. If you accepts EU as part of SW history, than you can't think that the guys from the movies will always win. We saw the duel, we read the duel, I can't understand how someone, afetr seeing all this, can give any excuse that Marek didn't defeat Vader. And he defeated Palpatine, going back there. Basically you said that they didn't engage in combat, just because they didn't clash their sabers. Marek was able to break down Palpatine with the Force, you think that's a samll thing? And the cutscenes are canon.At least some one agrees with me. However on your last point, I wouldn't say it shows that Starkiller is more powerful, just powerful enough to catch him unawares. Which as you say is no mean feat. However that fight was not over, and he could have easily unleashed a blast of Force lightning. For example in the battle with Sidious and Windu, Windu knocked him down, but the battle was far from over. But ultimately the fact that Marek was killed when attempting to catch his lightning, and Sidious survived, proves Sidious was more powerful. Although we should not downplay Marek's abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Raising his arms in a feeble attempt to block his attacks, which certainly wasn't doing anything. If he hadn't had the generator, he could have just flung Vader about the room, flung him out of the window, flung some heavy objects at him, struck him with Force lightning, or dismembered and beheaded him. One thing's for sure, Vader was in no position to fight back or kill Marek, he couldn't even keep hold of his lightsaber. He couldn't deflect any of Marek's saber attacks. He was beaten. Yes he could have, but the fact is he didn't. Right he was in no position to fight at that moment, I ain't arguing with you that Vader wasn't beaten just that he was beaten in a certain way. Also ya I know the cutscenes are canon...but I don't see what that has to do with anything. Now can we get back on track with this thread? Edited April 12, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcelo_sdk Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 At least some one agrees with me. However on your last point, I wouldn't say it shows that Starkiller is more powerful, just powerful enough to catch him unawares. Which as you say is no mean feat. However that fight was not over, and he could have easily unleashed a blast of Force lightning. For example in the battle with Sidious and Windu, Windu knocked him down, but the battle was far from over. But ultimately the fact that Marek was killed when attempting to catch his lightning, and Sidious survived, proves Sidious was more powerful. Although we should not downplay Marek's abilities. I agree, I said in a post above that Sidious ir more powerful, for me. But you have to consider that feat for Marek's account, very few would have been able to break through Sidious defense, even if he is unwaware, wich I don't think it's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcelo_sdk Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Yes he could have, but the fact is he didn't. Right he was in no position to fight at that moment, I ain't arguing with you that Vader wasn't beaten just that he was beaten in a certain way. Also ya I know the cutscenes are canon...but I don't see what that has to do with anything. Now can we get back on track with this thread? There's anyone still to defend Luminara? Otherwise I think we just need to wait Aurbere make the call. Edited April 12, 2013 by marcelo_sdk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 From TFU unleashed novel, the Vader being disinterested part was the 2nd not the 1st. Also while yes Vader was gripped, that wasn't the end of the fight he could have gotten out of it, he was raising his arms. Impaling Vader? Please...Vader has survived impalments with a saber before. The generator was what ended the fight. But yes Marek won, so lets just move on already with the fight going on now. Good lord, you cling to the novelizations like a drowning man! They are merely supplements to the games and movies they accompany, no more. The novelizations can provide some insight into the thoughts of characters or actions which occurred off screen, but they do not supercede what is clearly portrayed in the visual media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 That would be making the assumption that Unduli is more powerful, or as powerful as, Marek. Which I do not accept as the case. It would seem from her fight with Ventress that her defences were far less difficult to penetrate than Marek's. Nor is there any evidence that Ti is not patient or methodical, and able to flow easily between Ataru and Makashi. She only resorted to a desperate attack (which wasn't that desperate) as a very last resort. Before that she was graceful and fluid. If Ti will be forced to make desperate attacks in this battle, then she's lost before its even begun. She simply wasn't strong enough to defeat Marek. And again, why would Ti tire and Unduli not? Ti can easily switch to Makashi which focuses on economy of movement and is one of the least tiring of the forms, and whose to say, given the not so impenetrable nature of Unduli's defense, that Ti could not break through with a burst of Ataru. Your making the assumption that the fight will drag on, and considering her brief duel with Ventress (which ended in her sound defeat) and Ti's power and regard as one the greatest duelists of her age, and her ability to unleash powerful Force based attacks, I don't think it will. Also note that Unduli was not blinded, one of her eyes was damaged and she quickly recovered. I think you're drawing a conclusion based on the fact that Shaak Ti lost to Marek and Unduli lost to Ventress. That's kind of irrational, since Ventress was able to drive Unduli back but not kill or wound her, while Marek slaughtered Shaak Ti. Such comparisons are both irrelevant tough to assess accurately, so it's best to leave them alone. The fact is, both Shaak Ti and Unduli are regarded as skilled and masterful duelists, but Unduli has the edge in defensiveness due to her evasion and flexibility, while Shaak Ti relies far more heavily on acrobatics for both defense and offense. So it stands to reason that Shaak Ti's fighting style will tire her out more rapidly, while Unduli's defensive edge will allow her to hold out long enough for Shaak Ti to start getting sloppy. I think they're close enough in Force Power that neither will be able to gain a decisive edge over the other in any sort of a hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Good lord, you cling to the novelizations like a drowning man! They are merely supplements to the games and movies they accompany, no more. The novelizations can provide some insight into the thoughts of characters or actions which occurred off screen, but they do not supercede what is clearly portrayed in the visual media. Yes they do for games that is, game mechanics aren't canon. MOVING ON... Edited April 12, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) I think you're drawing a conclusion based on the fact that Shaak Ti lost to Marek and Unduli lost to Ventress. That's kind of irrational, since Ventress was able to drive Unduli back but not kill or wound her, while Marek slaughtered Shaak Ti. Such comparisons are both irrelevant tough to assess accurately, so it's best to leave them alone. The fact is, both Shaak Ti and Unduli are regarded as skilled and masterful duelists, but Unduli has the edge in defensiveness due to her evasion and flexibility, while Shaak Ti relies far more heavily on acrobatics for both defense and offense. So it stands to reason that Shaak Ti's fighting style will tire her out more rapidly, while Unduli's defensive edge will allow her to hold out long enough for Shaak Ti to start getting sloppy. I think they're close enough in Force Power that neither will be able to gain a decisive edge over the other in any sort of a hurry.It wasn't me who brought Marek into this. But either way I'm merely making the inference that Unduli's defenses aren't all that impenetrable as Ventress managed to penetrate them, albeit with a Force powered kick, but a gap is a gap either way. So in such a sense, Ti's aggressive attacks would be enough to power through Unduli's defenses before she tires out. And if they don't, Ti is more than capable of switching to a less demanding form. After all, she didn't seem to tire in her drawn out duel with Marek. I'd also say Ti has a decisive edge over Unduli in terms of Force powers, and Ti is more able to perform Force based attacks, while Unduli seems to rely on them solely to bolster her lightsaber combat. Basically Ti's attack is better than Unduli's defense, and proven to be so. Edited April 12, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Don't look at me Beni, Marcelo brought it all up. But enough about this now, am leaving the thread don't reply. Edited April 12, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Good lord, you cling to the novelizations like a drowning man! They are merely supplements to the games and movies they accompany, no more. The novelizations can provide some insight into the thoughts of characters or actions which occurred off screen, but they do not supercede what is clearly portrayed in the visual media.Not that it matters, what Wolf doesn't seem to see if that the game and the book are portraying events in the same way. Vader's complete and utter defeat at the hands of Marek, and that Marek surpassed Vader in all respects. This debate was useful in one respect, I found a statement comparing Vader and Shaak Ti as the greatest duelists of their age - cited from TFU novel itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Not that it matters, what Wolf doesn't seem to see if that the game and the book are portraying events in the same way. Vader's complete and utter defeat at the hands of Marek, and that Marek surpassed Vader in all respects. This debate was useful in one respect, I found a statement comparing Vader and Shaak Ti as the greatest duelists of their age - cited from TFU novel itself. No I understand, but how the events happen are different. Edited April 12, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) No I understand, but how the events happen are different.Pretty much the same really, Vader gets owned them pummeled with some heavy/explosive object. In the novel it was an energy field generator, in the game it was a bunch of pipes. But yeah, moving on... Edited April 12, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Pretty much the same really, Vader gets owned them pummeled with some heavy/explosive object. In the novel it was an energy field generator, in the game it was a bunch of pipes. But yeah, moving on... Yes I know, but anyway ya moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Don't look at me Beni, Marcelo brought it all up. But enough about this now, am leaving the thread don't reply. Stand and fight, coward! Not that it matters, what Wolf doesn't seem to see if that the game and the book are portraying events in the same way. Vader's complete and utter defeat at the hands of Marek, and that Marek surpassed Vader in all respects. This debate was useful in one respect, I found a statement comparing Vader and Shaak Ti as the greatest duelists of their age - cited from TFU novel itself. How perfectly dreadful. Apparently everyone and their sister is now the "greatest duelist of their age". I thought Mace and Yoda were the greatest of their age, with Anakin and Obi-Wan a step behind. Or perhaps, in context the quote means, "After Vader and the 501st killed every other duelist, Shaak Ti was the greatest duelist of her age, by virtue of also being one of the only duelists of her age." But yes about the Vader vs. Marek fight. It was obviously a painful smack down for Vader, no matter what way you cut it. Vader was tough and a very skilled fighter, but he was really starting to get past his prime at that point and Marek was young, powerful, and extremely proficient. George Lucas has repeatedly said that Obi-Wan and Darth Vader were significantly weakened by the time of the films and that the duel in ANH was "a cripple fighting an old man". Edited April 12, 2013 by Ventessel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Edit: Just nvrm. Edited April 12, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 How perfectly dreadful. Apparently everyone and their sister is now the "greatest duelist of their age". I thought Mace and Yoda were the greatest of their age, with Anakin and Obi-Wan a step behind. Or perhaps, in context the quote means, "After Vader and the 501st killed every other duelist, Shaak Ti was the greatest duelist of her age, by virtue of also being one of the only duelists of her age." But yes about the Vader vs. Marek fight. It was obviously a painful smack down for Vader, no matter what way you cut it. Vader was tough and a very skilled fighter, but he was really starting to get past his prime at that point and Marek was young, powerful, and extremely proficient. George Lucas has repeatedly said that Obi-Wan and Darth Vader were significantly weakened by the time of the films and that the duel in ANH was "a cripple fighting an old man".Oops, I meant 'one of'. Nonetheless you make a good point, however only that there were many great duelists in that period, and that Ti was one of them. The fact that Ti was on the Council and Unduli was not, well, it only reinforces the point. She is a formidable Jedi. And I find that the comics etc. have increased Vader's abilities beyond their initial scope. He is powerful, but they all seem to ignore the fact that his mobility was severely hampered and his Force ability diminished. Leading to a lot of frustrating contradictions and opinions verging on fanboism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Ok lets just get off this now, this isn't the thread for all of this. Lets get back to the battle at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcelo_sdk Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I just said that Unduli was easily defeated by Ventress and Ti had a much more fierce duel with Marek, who was a lot more powerful than the Dark Accolyte. The out-of-topic discussion begin cause I used the words "Marek, who was one of the most powerful force-users of all times", Wolfinin disagreed and all begin. But yes, let's move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I just said that Unduli was easily defeated by Ventress and Ti had a much more fierce duel with Marek, who was a lot more powerful than the Dark Accolyte. The out-of-topic discussion begin cause I used the words "Marek, who was one of the most powerful force-users of all times", Wolfinin disagreed and all begin. But yes, let's move on.Well, I was actually referring to what Vent said but whatever. I think its time for Aurbere to call this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Ok lets just get off this now, this isn't the thread for all of this. Lets get back to the battle at hand. Eh, who really cares? This wasn't much of a fight to begin with, basically it's a straight up lightsaber brawl until someone kills someone else. Agile offense against a flexible defense. Fairly dull stuff, I'm sure Aurbere will call it when he gets around to it. Oops, I meant 'one of'. Nonetheless you make a good point, however only that there were many great duelists in that period, and that Ti was one of them. The fact that Ti was on the Council and Unduli was not, well, it only reinforces the point. She is a formidable Jedi. And I find that the comics etc. have increased Vader's abilities beyond their initial scope. He is powerful, but they all seem to ignore the fact that his mobility was severely hampered and his Force ability diminished. Leading to a lot of frustrating contradictions and opinions verging on fanboism. Well, Ti was one of the rotating members, I believe. That doesn't strictly speak to her being more powerful than Unduli hands down. Membership wasn't appointed based on strength but rather to keep the council's membership somewhat fresh and level headed. Unduli could easily have been appointed in the next round of rotating memberships. But about Vader, it is true that many writers and artists have gone completely overboard, turning him into a God Mode Sue. His dueling technique certainly improved after his injuries because he had to learn caution and precision since a mistake would cost him his life (much like post-Orbalisk Bane). But his force powers were diminished and without his agility he lost a considerable amount of his options in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted April 12, 2013 Author Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm surprised things have progressed so far, even if it was mostly Marek vs. Vader. I'm getting ready to call it. Does anyone have any final points to make (not regarding Marek vs. Vader)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm surprised things have progressed so far, even if it was mostly Marek vs. Vader. I'm getting ready to call it. Does anyone have any final points to make (not regarding Marek vs. Vader)? I don't, nope. Think its safe to say we got it all covered however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventessel Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I'm surprised things have progressed so far, even if it was mostly Marek vs. Vader. I'm getting ready to call it. Does anyone have any final points to make (not regarding Marek vs. Vader)? Shaak Ti should have points taken off for being so darn irritating in TFU. But then again, Luminara Unduli should loose points for dressing like a goofball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Shaak Ti should have points taken off for being so darn irritating in TFU. But then again, Luminara Unduli should loose points for dressing like a goofball.I think Unduli looks cool. And I liked Shaak Ti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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