[Madness] How to fix Madness (without screwing over sorcs)

[Majspuffen]

A lot of people were alarmed by the low DPS Madness Assassins parsed. Bioware patted us on the head and said that in a raid environment, we'd deal the same amount of damage as everyone else, since our damage will supposedly sky-rocket during the execute phase.

 

This is bad design, in my opinion. As such, I have a simple suggestion that will not only give madness higher sustained damage and less "sky-rocket" damage during the execute phase, but also restore some of the lost fun to the spec.

 

Simple suggestion; Replace "Bloodletting" with a new talent that allows for the use of Maul.

 

And if I am to expand upon this idea a bit, I'd suggest something like this:

[Talent name]

Your damage over time abilties have a 15/30% chance to grant [buff name], reducing the force cost of your next Maul by 75%. In addition, your Maul will deal x% more damage per active damage over time debuff present on your target.

 

This way, Madness assassins also gets to use Maul, and they get a Maul with its own distinction. What do you think?

[Xethis]

A lot of people were alarmed by the low DPS Madness Assassins parsed. Bioware patted us on the head and said that in a raid environment, we'd deal the same amount of damage as everyone else, since our damage will supposedly sky-rocket during the execute phase.

 

This is bad design, in my opinion. As such, I have a simple suggestion that will not only give madness higher sustained damage and less "sky-rocket" damage during the execute phase, but also restore some of the lost fun to the spec.

 

Simple suggestion; Replace "Bloodletting" with a new talent that allows for the use of Maul.

 

And if I am to expand upon this idea a bit, I'd suggest something like this:

[Talent name]

Your damage over time abilties have a 15/30% chance to grant [buff name], reducing the force cost of your next Maul by 75%. In addition, your Maul will deal x% more damage per active damage over time debuff present on your target.

 

This way, Madness assassins also gets to use Maul, and they get a Maul with its own distinction. What do you think?

Highly unlikely. One of the biggest complaints over the last year about Madness Assassin was that the rotation for max dps was too difficult. Tracking several buffs, as well as watching for 2 different procs and all at the same time tacking 2 Dots on your target was a bit challenging. Some people loved the complexity but it was pretty unanimous that most chose not to play Madness due to its complexity. They removed Maul from the rotation for two reasons, first, to simplify the rotation. The second reason was so Darkness Assassins could not take advantage of Duplicity and their new frontal Maul proc.

 

BW has already stated that the main goal was to simplify rotation for Madness and that they felt that more tweaking is necessary (on top of the 3/14 changes) to make up for the damage lost by not having Maul procs.

[Majspuffen]

In order to make it easier they also ruined its pvp viability. Without the high sustained damage, Madness Assasins do not have enough single-target pressure to kill healers, especially not when we have to resort to saber strike.

 

That's why I want Maul back in our rotation. Also, the rotation is very boring without it.

 

As for the argument that it's hard... if people thought it hard, they should've played something else. There's plenty of simple classes out there. Lethality spec for operatives was much, much, much more difficult than playing Madness spec with an assassin, and lethality operatives, while having gotten somewhat easier to play, remain complex. The changes made to lethality makes sense. The changes made to Madness butchered the tree's pvp potential. I don't think "making it easier" is a good justification.

[WaldoA]

First of all I'd just like to say, the only PvE I ever done was daillies.

 

As much as I loved Madness for PvE, I was so disappointed at first at what happened to Madness. Though I tried it in PvP and it's not as bad as I thought (though it's still terrible). Then I tried Deception... oh my. Deception is PvP can be named the king of burst, it really is incredible that a class can have such a great tree right next to such a terrible one.

[Majspuffen]

Madness is broken for PvP.

 

If numbers is all Bioware is looking at, then Madness will look just fine. But I did ~1050 dps today using a retarded tri-spec. I was upset and wanted to prove a point, and I think I did. That retarded tri-spec is probably more effective than full Madness. You're in tank stance so you take less damage and you have access to a 5s force shroud and your force speed breaks roots. Huge utility and survivability right there. You've access to maul proc (thus the 7,6k highest hit)... and you have the ridiculous new Death Field that strikes 5 targets.

 

I'm not saying it's a good spec. Full tank and full deception is probably better by miles. But this spec is arguably better than full Madness. Madness is squishy and had to kite. We had the tools to do so, and we could set up our own burst by managing Death Field marks and dots (for force regen) as well as having access to the Maul proc. All of that is gone. We're left with pressuring healers with thrash and saber strike. To summarize; we've been reduced to spamming AoE only, because we're not good for anything else.

 

For PvP viability we need another direct hit that hits for more than thrash and costs less. Seeing as we already have Assassinate, it makes sense to remove bloodletting.

 

Before 2.0, I played a Balance Shadow. I chose full balance over the hybrids because of the survivability and utility granted by Sever Force (Creeping Terror). The spec was better than the hybrids, in my opinion. Right now, it is not. And I'm extremely upset by these changes. Making it easier at the cost of the pvp viability is no good justification.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Majspuffen]

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Madness before 2.0 was actually not that hard to play? In world of warcraft I was playing an arms warrior, and that was hard to play. Edited April 11, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Zeghrem]

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Madness before 2.0 was actually not that hard to play? In world of warcraft I was playing an arms warrior, and that was hard to play.

 

No, madness was bloody easy to play. You didn't have to even think about when to cast dots as the timers were laid out for you in a simple pattern. Anytime you deathfield cast the two dots... that's it. You had to watch for procs, boy was that difficult... said no one competent. Nothing about this spec was difficult to manage.

[WaldoA]

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Madness before 2.0 was actually not that hard to play? In world of warcraft I was playing an arms warrior, and that was hard to play.

 

Yer I loved Madness for PvP even though a lot of people said it was terrible and difficult to play. I am by no means being big headed, but I thought it was great and easy to use. The constant small heals were great for 1v1, the root from CT came in handy plenty of times, and if all else failed I could run around spamming discharge before if I knew I was going to die

[Majspuffen]

No, madness was bloody easy to play. You didn't have to even think about when to cast dots as the timers were laid out for you in a simple pattern. Anytime you deathfield cast the two dots... that's it. You had to watch for procs, boy was that difficult... said no one competent. Nothing about this spec was difficult to manage.

 

Agree, but it was fun to manage. I for one loved managing my resource through the Death Field marks. The procs spiced up our otherwise boring rotation. Saber strike was used depending on how unlucky we were with procs. It had a great flow and was fun to play.

 

This new balance lacks all that. Force regen is passive and based on the RNG. We have no control. We only have one proc. Nothing to manage anymore really. Because we're forced to use saber strike so often, it feels like the flow is gone. It is also very boring right now. More than anything else I'd like to see Balance reverted to the way it was in 1.7... but I don't think Bioware are capable of doing rollbacks. Getting Shadow Strike back into our rotation is the next best thing.

 

If we can get that maybe I'll start pushing for a more fun resource management mechanic but.. I don't really have any hopes at all at the moment. I fear I will give up on my Balance Shadow and play my Lethality Operative, instead.

[Zeghrem]

Agree, but it was fun to manage. I for one loved managing my resource through the Death Field marks. The procs spiced up our otherwise boring rotation. Saber strike was used depending on how unlucky we were with procs. It had a great flow and was fun to play.

 

This new balance lacks all that. Force regen is passive and based on the RNG. We have no control. We only have one proc. Nothing to manage anymore really. Because we're forced to use saber strike so often, it feels like the flow is gone. It is also very boring right now. More than anything else I'd like to see Balance reverted to the way it was in 1.7... but I don't think Bioware are capable of doing rollbacks. Getting Shadow Strike back into our rotation is the next best thing.

 

If we can get that maybe I'll start pushing for a more fun resource management mechanic but.. I don't really have any hopes at all at the moment. I fear I will give up on my Balance Shadow and play my Lethality Operative, instead.

 

It was fun, no doubt. But where we lost one thing we should have gained another. Why not turn telekinetic throw into a cull type ability through talents. I would have at least felt like I was building up to something. Now I'm just waiting on a single proc.

 

Why not turn phase walk into a ground aoe and sear targets as they stay in it? Why not do something with the other abilities in our ability list to make them more interesting? I don't have to stick with just Shadow strike/Maul but you definitely need SOMETHING else in there to fill the gap.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Zeghrem

[spond]

It was fun, no doubt. But where we lost one thing we should have gained another. Why not turn telekinetic throw into a cull type ability through talents. I would have at least felt like I was building up to something. Now I'm just waiting on a single proc.

 

Why not turn phase walk into a ground aoe and sear targets as they stay in it? Why not do something with the other abilities in our ability list to make them more interesting? I don't have to stick with just Shadow strike/Maul but you definitely need SOMETHING else in there to fill the gap.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. I've come up we a couple of ideas.

 

They can re-introduce shock into our rotation with a raze like proc. This could give us a single target burst type damage dealer and wouldn't have to monkey around our tree. You could actually add it to one of the later powers in the tree....... OR......... add it to our phase walk power; as long as we are within jump range of our plant, this proc will trigger every 10 seconds during combat.... or something.

 

Another thing that they can do to add burst is attach the same proc mech to force lighting. It would be kinda cool to be able to use this power as an assassin. Maybe add an accelerant and damage buff when a force lighting procs. This would look neat and would be yet another single target "burst" if the power accelerates instead of doting..... again they can also tie this to phase walk or something.

[Majspuffen]

They can re-introduce shock into our rotation with a raze like proc. This could give us a single target burst type damage dealer and wouldn't have to monkey around our tree. You could actually add it to one of the later powers in the tree....... OR......... add it to our phase walk power; as long as we are within jump range of our plant, this proc will trigger every 10 seconds during combat.... or something.

 

Seeing as I play mainly PvP, I think this is a bad idea. Madness Assassins are supposed to be mobile. Hit and run. Kiting. Requiring to stand in our own Phase Walk contradicts our own playstyle.

 

I would, however, like to see Lightning used. It's very fitting with the class and how it operates, in both pvp and pve. Perhaps have a proc that makes Lightning uninterruptable, and deal x% more damage per active dot on a target. The downside to this, however, is that we'll be much more susceptible to dispels. Lethality operatives and snipers got a form of dispel protection; when their dots are dispelled, weaker versions are applied. The operative will still have to re-apply dots, but the weaker dots at least allows for continued use of cull (at max damage).

 

Creeping Terror, while a great ability for objective play, could use a buff in that regard. If dispelled, it could do a chunk of instant damage. That way, a sage can dispel our dots to lower our sustained damage a bit and force us to reapply our dots, but at the same time they cause some nasty damage to themselves.

 

Anyways, appreciate the responses. I'm hoping Bioware reads and realizes that they've completely sterilized this spec. The argument that it was "too hard" doesn't hold, in my opinion. I'm typically drawn to the more challenging specs to play, as such I had a lethality operative, a vengeance juggernaut and a pyrotech merc before 2.0... and out of all those classes, I'd say that Madness Assassin was the easiest to play, on par with Vengeance Juggernaut. In 2.0 however, Vengeance Juggernauts have become more difficult to play. Is that okay, because rage is still an easy spec ..?

[Civilie]

Yep... I'm also done with Balance. It's funny, 2.0 was sort of a sad day for me. The class I began with and loved died... ugh. It really does seem like no one in Austin is playing the spec though. One of the posters was right though... I think they heard too many complaints from new-ish players about the difficulty level of the rotation. Of course... that's exactly what made it great/rewarding. If you couldn't handle it, you went Infiltration... if you practiced and got it down, your DPS would be better than Infiltration.

 

And yes, it just feels like there is no flow at all. Too many Saber Strikes. I like the ideas people have posted (I had a bunch too), but I think the best solution would be to place the Maul proc back down to the first tier and make it Force/Shadow technique only. Next would be to drop Rippling Force and give us the force regen back.

 

The funny thing is... every other class became MORE complex with 2.0. I'm thinking Watchmen Sentinels specifically. I always thought that spec was harder than Balance anyway.

 

Lastly - where did BW post something about the Balance/Madness changes? I didn't see anything, can someone post please? Thanks.

[kijthae]

Maul ? madness ? lol ? I like it as it is now. It used to have too many skills in its rotation now its great as design wise. Madness is about to kitting operatives , marauders , bursting healers by stacking dots , aoe , multi dotting , getting healed slowly while kitting your opponent around boxes but its definetely not about mauling them from behind. New skills like %30 dmg reduction while stunned are great too.

 

It only needs benefits from alacrity like quicker ticking dots and maybe a proc from trash which reduces cost of some abilities.

Edited April 29, 2013 by kijthae

[Majspuffen]

Maul ? madness ? lol ? I like it as it is now. It used to have too many skills in its rotation now its great as design wise. Madness is about to kitting operatives , marauders , bursting healers by stacking dots , aoe , multi dotting , getting healed slowly while kitting your opponent around boxes but its definetely not about mauling them from behind. New skills like %30 dmg reduction while stunned are great too.

 

It only needs benefits from alacrity like quicker ticking dots and maybe a proc from trash which reduces cost of some abilities.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think our DoTs are nearly scary enough to pressure and kill a well-played operative healer. Shadow Strike was an essential tool to our playstyle. You said it yourself, we're kiters. When we go in for melee damage, we want to go in hard. Shadow Strike allowed for that.

[IAAIAO]

This is what we call synergy and a lot of people have been posting about it already.

 

I don't understand the devs's choice either, and don't understand people complaining about a class complexity.