PvP in Game Update 2.0: Scum and Villainy

[LarryRow]

So, you think programming a new system should take just a day or two just because people complain about it? Thing s take time to implement and hash out, also what sort of project doesn't have discussion time and planning time then implementing the resolve. This isn't a magic wand where they can just fix it right at the very moment that people complain or whine about a problem. Obviously they have listened, it just took some time to fix it on top of everything else they are bringing out.

 

Did I say a day or two? No, I said quickly, as in not 7 months. As far as bugged bubble stun, it does not take long to type ApplyEffect {resolve, 600} or ApplyEffect {mez} instead of what they had in place.

 

Players from the entire ability spectrum and loyalty spectrum were pointing out the glaring flaws with Smash and Bubble Stun (which are just examples, commandos underperforming is another), yet it was only briefly commented on by devs and left in place for several months. Did you think Smash was fine? Bubbles were fine? Commandos are fine? Did you think the turnaround time on class balance from 1.4 to 2.0 was nimble and lean?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, it's reasonable to think that more frequent, smaller balance changes, and more response to feedback would be better for the game. I am actually astonished that people have a problem with this.

[DarthOvertone]

Mr. Modny, I appreciate you giving us a PvP update for 2.0. As a player who primarily PvPs in SWTOR I am thankful that there are still dedicated members of the staff working on PvP.

 

However, I am extremely disappointed with the almost complete and total lack of PvP content in RotHC. In the future, it is my hope that an expansion of this type will at least include a new WZ at minimum. I pre-purchased RotHC expecting a minimum of PvP content, but we didn't even receive that imo. As a result, I will not be pre-purchasing any future SWTOR expansions unless I see definitive statements of PvP content being included.

 

So thanks for the update. No thanks for the zero PvP content in 2.0 and RotHC. Guess Soon continues to be the operative word for the PvP community in this game.

 

 

Doing something about premade groups against a random team would also help with matching up players. A premade team could play a premade team. That would be a good match up.

 

That already happens as the current matchmaking system in place pits premade groups versus other groups first when composing WZ teams.

 

 

It makes me wonder if anyone there even plays PvP. I spend so much time in PvP being stunned over and over and over again. It's not working as intended guys. The game is unplayable.

 

With the bubble stun change and instant WW/FL nerf, CC is going to be toned down quite a bit. I wouldn't QQ too much about CC in 2.0 until you play the game as it will be noticeably different just based on the changes I just listed.

 

 

And yet there is still no response to the horrendous class imbalance from Bioware.

 

Is it horrendous? Why do you think so?

 

I play every class across the board. There are really only two classes that are just straight up screwed and don't see much action in Rated play atm, DPS Scrapper/Ops and DPS Merc/Commandos. In Regz those classes do a pretty good job. From 10-49, every class and every AC for the most part performs very well. So what exactly are you talking about?

 

Of course, the terrain of balance will vary some in 2.0 from now, but nobody is quite sure yet how it's going to shake out. Perhaps your tinfoil hat works better than mine and you can predict how things will unfold.

 

Not to mention that the whole balance idea is a facade for the most part in almost every MMO with PvP anyway. Devs try to keep things on an even keel for the most part, but it's a tough act to pull off. In fact, I can't think of a game with MMO PvP that has or has had perfect class balance...ever.

Edited April 8, 2013 by DarthOvertone

[smithvmi]

Regarding stuns:

 

How about cleanses by healers remove stuns? Like Sorc/Sage can cleanse force-based stuns, and op/scoun merc/mando can remove tech-based?

[smithvmi]

Regarding stuns:

 

How about cleanses by healers remove stuns? Like Sorc/Sage can cleanse force-based stuns, and op/scoun merc/mando can remove tech-based?

[HuaRya]

There is no possible way that 30-54 is going to be a viable "bracket." That is just insane.

 

It should be 30-49 and 50-54. Fifty will remain the point at which you first get access to PvP gear, so it is going to continue to be a major breakpoint. It's also the level that "maxed" characters who don't buy the expansion will stop and twink at.

 

From what I've seen in my 2-3 months of PVP'ing I think this is spot on observation.

[Jimissen]

So are the one hit kills in pvp gonna be fixed in 2.0 or are those staying right where they are?

[Anzel]

That made me lol. Stop using your stunbreaker on the first stun, try using your cc objectively, you'll understand.

 

Now that made ME lol. My stun breaker. OK. Yeah. That works the way it's supposed to work. I have one on a 60 second cool down. OK. That really really helps for like 200ms before the next 10 stuns come while some OP does the "Party Boy" over and over again up against me. Yah! PvP! We're all so super leet!

 

Watch a rated stream sometime (since you obviously don't play rated) and imagine trying to take an objective without stuns.

 

I have and I do and yep you guessed it. Stun wars. It's like baseball in the sense that it's stupid boring to play and even more so to watch.

 

And you can easily take objective with knockbacks and roots and snares and interrupts and stealth and... oh yeah skill and strategery. Remember those? No, of course you don't. You're too busy watching your resolve bar.

 

 

ALSO...

 

<STUN>

 

Oooooh now you're stunned. Now you have to sit there like a little baby while I pew pew at you. Oooooh I am so leet. Look everyone. Look how leet I am!!!!

[Venorhion]

Why are updates PvP, FP or Ops most the time? Can't they add some other updates like Guild things?

[Beaunidle]

Wake me when PVP isn't STUN WARS and there is actually something worth fighting over.

 

One way to help fix this issue (which is why a lot of people don't bother with PvP, Stun Wars is DULL) would be to reset the cooldown of stunbreakers on death.

 

Obviously the resolve system doesn't even begin to work as it is now so that needs to be addressed big time.

[Keiraa]

I like the changes. A level 12-13 character will actually have a chance no more fighting against level 49s! Of course the feeling of actually killing a level 49 character with your tiny level 12 will be gone forever as well

[HuaRya]

A lvl 31 with 22 points in thier respective tree is going to get slaughtered when facing a 54

 

It's a horrific oversight and will cause anyone who isn't already maxed out at 50 with WH+ and full augs to not be able to participate.

[funkiestj]

Nobody wants stuns. And I mean nobody wants them in War Zones.

I do. I think the stun / resolve / snare system is good as it is. It could use a few tweaks and bugs should always be fixed the system is pretty darn good as it is.

 

Bubblestun is where it belongs in 2.0. Bubblestun was the only thing I thought was out of control in the 1.7 system

 

And NOBODY thinks you're some big bad Internet tough guy for supporting them.

 

Nice try at attempting to preemptively to suppress voter turnout for the viewpoint you don't like. Better luck next time.

 

While matchmaking currently sucks, I think the combat system is pretty good with the caveats others have mentioned about a few classes being useless in rateds.

 

TANGENT: I do wish they use some torrent type peer to peer technology for downloading huge new releases. My download is currently so slow.

[SermoVita]

Give me one good reason why you screwed the real pvp players who have elite gear by not letting them trade it in for the lvl 55 gear? Makes zero sense.

[Otrorto]

Check out Assistant Designer Alex Modny's new blog on changes coming the PvP Systems in Game Update 2.0: Scum and Villainy.

 

gonna simply redirect u here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=621370. Is easier. True opinions of this thing.

[Bhillski]

Cap on how many commendations you can earn weekly! You're telling us how much we are allowed play your game? Even tho many are paying for it Edited April 9, 2013 by Bhillski

[Otrorto]

A lvl 31 with 22 points in thier respective tree is going to get slaughtered when facing a 54

 

this is not true, lot of ppl just checked that now the Best in Slot is actually level 9 gear for PvP, WarHero and EliteWarHero gives u less stats and a ton less expertise, with the actual boolster the less expertise/stat u have, the more the boolster gives u back, so accordingly, the best item u can use is one with the lower level possible and less stats possible. Have to check my Initial gear, that i have in my cargos for a sentimental reason, is probably the best gear possible now in PvP....

Edited April 9, 2013 by Otrorto

[Bhillski]

this is not true, lot of ppl just checked that now the Best in Slot is actually level 9 gear for PvP, WarHero and EliteWarHero gives u less stats and a ton less expertise, with the actual boolster the less expertise/stat u have, the more the boolster gives u back, so accordingly, the best item u can use is one with the lower level possible and less stats possible. Have to check my Initial gear, that i have in my cargos for a sentimental reason, is probably the best gear possible now in PvP....

 

 

Going naked or in empty orange I was reading on the other forums.

[LarryRow]

Now that made ME lol. My stun breaker. OK. Yeah. That works the way it's supposed to work. I have one on a 60 second cool down. OK. That really really helps for like 200ms before the next 10 stuns come while some OP does the "Party Boy" over and over again up against me. Yah! PvP! We're all so super leet!

 

I know you're exaggerating, but the general sentiment comes through. This is exactly the kind of comment that needs to be taken with a grain of salt by the devs because it is obviously being made by a bad player who doesn't play objectives, doesn't play as a team, and has probably never survived to enjoy a full resolve bar. Queue with a tank, a healer, and another dps to carry you, and you'll see that having stuns spammed at you without thought will quickly lead to the enemy's demise.

 

By the way, your cc breaker is probably on a 120s cooldown, not 60s lol.

 

I have and I do and yep you guessed it. Stun wars. It's like baseball in the sense that it's stupid boring to play and even more so to watch.

 

You can hate on swtor, but don't hate on baseball, man, that's not cool. Are you from Europe?

 

And you can easily take objective with knockbacks and roots and snares and interrupts and stealth and... oh yeah skill and strategery. Remember those? No, of course you don't. You're too busy watching your resolve bar.

 

lol no. There are like a hundred times when a stun is essential for smart objective or tactical play. I would list them for you but I will tell them to this wall next to my desk instead because it will be a better use of my time.

 

ALSO...

<STUN>

Oooooh now you're stunned. Now you have to sit there like a little baby while I pew pew at you. Oooooh I am so leet. Look everyone. Look how leet I am!!!!

 

Except that I popped a defensive cd before you stunned me, waited out the stun, popped my cc breaker on the next one, and pwned your face with full resolve. Or mezzed you while I stole your node. You know, the kind of things good players do.

[DarthOvertone]

this is not true, lot of ppl just checked that now the Best in Slot is actually level 9 gear for PvP, WarHero and EliteWarHero gives u less stats and a ton less expertise, with the actual boolster the less expertise/stat u have, the more the boolster gives u back, so accordingly, the best item u can use is one with the lower level possible and less stats possible. Have to check my Initial gear, that i have in my cargos for a sentimental reason, is probably the best gear possible now in PvP....

 

Once we figured out how stupid the Bolster system worked, my guildies and I were just playing in different outfits for every WZ pop. Expertise gear is absolutely unnecessary while leveling now. Actually, it hurts you if you are doing any PvE or questing outside of WZs due to the stat deficiencies on 50+ pvp gear when fighting landscape mobs.

 

Not sure what the situation is in the 55 Bracket, but I imagine it's a similar situation. If Bolster is in RWZs, they will be a complete farce and endgame PvP is done.

[Anzel]

Except that I popped a defensive cd before you stunned me, waited out the stun, popped my cc breaker on the next one, and pwned your face with full resolve. Or mezzed you while I stole your node. You know, the kind of things good players do.

 

LOL, It's so hard to find other folks who, "get it". I think we just became best friends.

 

Look, in all honesty I just don't think stuns are working as intended. I understand the design and I think they've done a really good job. My problem is that it's a fairly complex (for the masses) system that requires a bit of team work. So yes, in the hands of a well organized (rated) team it has quite a bit of utility and purpose.

 

However in most WarZones I observe the example that I've dramatized here over and over again. Both teams running round stunning each other over and over and over again. In general it's a really really bad experience. It's not a design that scales well. Like chess. You can explain the rules of chess to someone in like five minutes. But it takes a lifetime to become proficient.

 

Two novice chess players can play a game of chess and enjoy the game just as easily as two advanced players. An advanced player can own a novice player's face... as it should be. The game has a simple design that requires strategy and planning. It scales well.

 

With War Zones, only the most well organized and advanced players benefit from this system. Unfortunately this is a bad thing.

[Darth_Vampirius]

Check out Assistant Designer Alex Modny's new blog on changes coming the PvP Systems in Game Update 2.0: Scum and Villainy.

 

And.... PVP in 2.0 wins the worst PVP in video game history award. GJ!

[translucentwolf]

And.... PVP in 2.0 wins the worst PVP in video game history award. GJ!

 

It's really not that bad. If you're a good player, you still beat a poor player.

[Jedi_wanabie]

My comments are directed to the SWTOR development team, I can only hope that some developers will read this post and thread, and our comments as players and some of us as subscribers who purchased their product will be addressed.

 

The changes to bolster have create a new set of issues.

 

"Naked" (no items whatsoever) is en vogue on PvP as it gives a VERY HIGH bolster as it is recognized presumably as the lowest level of armor. This is sheer folly, and developers should address this issue.

 

PvPers have rapidly adapted to the changes meant to provide 'smoother leveling' e.g. aid the less equipped (weaker) players in lowbie levels. Smoothing out the inequalities of the players, is an exercise in futility, as well as self-contradictory in its approach.

 

Stratification is far more effective in dealing with these inherent inequalities of levels, since player compete against others with a similar level, the single most important attribute.

 

Since each class of character has different skills, and perks (level-dependent), stratification in narrower bands might prove to be more effective than advanced bolstering, although both may be needed to some extent.

 

In principle, I think players who have made the effort to improve their characters SHOULD BE rewarded, afterall, its a RPG! Otherwise whats the point of questing, flashpoints, earning credits, buying/selling, crafting, scavenging, learning schematics, improving crew skills, and investing in better gear, if all someone else has to do is PvP naked instead.... its silly.

 

My guild-mates have instructed to to REMOVE my gear (earpiece, implants, relics and so on) in lowbie PvP for that reason.

 

Why bother playing PvP in a RPG envirnoment; its nonsense. If getting lowbies to join PvP is the objective, fine, then just get rid of the inequality altogether (see below for details).

 

My recommendations are to either:

 

(1) stratify into narrower bands to create a more level playing field, because even with advanced bolstering where EA/BW "has more control" it doesnt matter. Generally speaking, two characters tete-en-tete (not a 2+ on 1 situation), of the same character type two such a pair of melee of the same alliance (IMP v. IMP) and equal level of health/damage...it comes down to who has the higher level ----- and that is with BOLSTER 2.0

 

in summary, level is still the single most important factor....

 

Now, some people cant resist making counter-arguments just to argue (go ahead), but that has been my experience in pvp not only for myself but for teammates as well.

 

There are far more imp players in pvp, so it seems, because I have played several imp v imp matches, and virtually no repub v repub matches. When its imp vs. repub, imp usually wins 75-90% of the time (it doesnt matter if I am a repub or imp) Perhaps in this asymmetric match up there is inequality, too. Maybe people imp pvp to win (I do). Or maybe the imps are just better...but its worth examining the w/l ratios..

 

Ideologically, SWTOR developers seem wed to the concept that 'its a RPG, so asymmetric, inequalities' are inherent and even necessary for game play.

 

I disagree.

 

(2) As a first person shooter (FPS) and RPG player, I have enjoyed a 'player v player' gaming environment without such inequalities as leveling and gearing stats to determine the outcome, and where skill is truly important.

 

I would like to see concepts such as AIMING be important and not just a stat-probability roll, but real targeting. Please spare your flames, I seek to improve pvp in an rpg environment....

 

At the moment, when I want a test of my gaming skills, I play battle field 2 where the rank (level) gear (2 of each weapon) are the same for both teams and the intro weapons are actually better in most cases. There is a glitch where sometimes your rank isnt recognized and you play as a newbie private with intro weapons. These players always score about the same no matter, typically at the top. Maybe that is why battlefield 2 still has players after 8 years without any significant patching.

 

My suggestion to improve PvP in RPG and to aid leveling and equality and even the skill level is to offer a uniform set of skill classes for both imp and repub. Leveling doesnt matter. Gearing doesnt matter. You get a new, fixed dash board of skills with you "enlist" into a pvp battle.

 

There could be 3 classes: (a) healer, dps, and tank with 9 players on the current maps, each team having three of each class. Each class has a few specialized skills to to their job (taunt, heal, strike), everything else is the same. Players must aim. The weapons, health and hit points are the same for each class. The gear is essentially (except for specialty skill item(s)) the same: just different colored/styled uniforms for each side to ID friendly from foe.

 

That would be an example of a ppv in pve skill based game that would solve all imbalance issues by level, gear or alliance. Who know maybe I will be able to encourage my 100+ clan mates who actively play FPS like battlefield 3 and 2, who are adults that maintain their own server each month with donations and their time to come join me in SWTOR PvP matches. PvP might be able to attract the large numbers of adult, paying gamers of FPS, and they might discover PvE and stay awhile longer.

 

I wouldnt suggest that now to my adult gamer friends because most of these FPS gamers would be sorely disappointed as I am with RPG PvP, its unfair and it lacks skill to be engaging: just level up and move as a hoard to trounce the relative lowbies. **** too bad, because I would love to introduce them all to pvp at SWTOR...but as it is now they would go back to favorite fps games in no time.

 

Being a veteran player on a team of veteran players is enough an advantage to trounce lowbies. With the present inequalities the game is not challenging and boring. Advanced 2.0 Bolster is not the solution, level 29 and 54 still dominate their pools (the pool are still to broad), but it is far better than when a level 49 could hunt and kill ANY level 29 or under foe with no skill at all.

 

PS spare me the lectures of "you know dont how to play because I am level 10 jedi sage and I win every game as a repub"..save such nonsense for those gullible to believe it. I have been playing RPG when it was on paper 30 years ago. Some of us are old-timer tech and science guys who participated in the development of software industry, software developers, system builders, and (big surprise) we are experienced gamers, too.

 

A game is unbalanced will be exploited to the point where it is not fun to play for anyone.

 

I only (mildly) enjoy playing my level 52 main character (who scores number one a respectable number of times)...and I only run my lowbie alts with my guild-mates and endure the inequality and wait to hit the top level of the pool to dominate.

 

Otherwise, I prefer to level my lowbie alts with space missions, its much more enjoyable. I play battlefield FPS when I want a player v player skill game.

 

PvP in SWTOR 2.0 is not about skill: its all about level (and moving as a hoard), advanced 2.0 bolster or not.

 

Happy gaming.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Jedi_wanabie
minor edits

[idnewton]

Nope, both teams are pretty much just stunning each other over and over again. It's really really lame. I watch people spending the majority of their time either walking like they are moving in extreme slow motion because of roots and snares or they just sit there and get killed while they are stunned. Then they turn around and do the exact same thing.

 

LAME. WAR ZONES ARE UNPLAYABLE WITH STUNS AS THE WAY THEY ARE. REMOVE THEM. THEY ARE UNNECESSARY.

 

You already have:

 

1.) Roots

2.) Snares

3.) Interrupts

4.) Knockbacks

5.) Stealth

 

Nobody wants stuns. And I mean nobody wants them in War Zones.

 

And NOBODY thinks you're some big bad Internet tough guy for supporting them. Trying to make the game overly complicated or "difficult" might be the fashionable thing to do with the rest of the angry little trolls but nobody in real life cares. We just want to go and enjoy the game and have fun.

 

I absolutely guarentee that declaring your opinion correct and anything aside from it a lie is not going to get you anywhere on these forums, or indeed anywhere in life. PvP needs stuns. As big of a stun problem as there is? No. The stun problem also isn't as big as people make it out to be, but yes it is there. In order to fix this, a very simple solution should be implimented.

 

Redesign resolve to have an 'active cooldown,' of sorts. Any time you are stunned/slowed/rooted with any resolve, it has no effect. Whenever you are stunned/slowed/rooted with no resolve, you generate a certain amount and it instantly starts degenerating over time (at the same speed it currently does). Whenever you are slowed, you generate small resolve. Rooted, medium resolve. Stunned, large resolve (full).

Edited April 16, 2013 by idnewton

[Anzel]

PvP needs stuns.

 

No it doesn't. It is a completely stupid concept for PvP.