[Knight spoilers] Light-side storytelling bias and how it ruined the story for me

[SW_display_name]

So, knowing how forums tend to be, I will probably be mocked / derided / abused / etc. for this. But in the hope it causes you to improve your storytelling in the future, I'm going to try explaining myself here. Because the story is the best part of the game for me, and you effectively just unfairly mutilated my Jedi Knight story.

 

On Corellia, I'm given the option of Dark Side / Light Side approaches to problems in Labor Valley and Axial Park.

 

There is no warning, no plot hint, nothing makes clear that if you go Dark Side in even ONE of these options, the end result is that Corellia resolves with your entire Jedi squad being slaughtered. So all these characters you met and recruited, poof, dead. Var Suthra too.

 

This is beyond unfair. You cannot do this sort of thing in a game where there is no option to return to an earlier save point. And by the time you realize what the consequences are, it's too late to reset the chain and redo it. Effectively, you punish players with trap options for not tediously slapping every single Light Side star that shows up.

 

I'm fine with DS having different consequences than LS, but you went too far with Corellia. The magnitude of the consequences isn't foreshadowed, and doesn't match up with the generally irrelevant outcome of DS choices in the plot up till that point. Further, any minor shadowing occurs once it's too late to change the choices.

 

It doesn't even make sense, since the options are ludicrously mundane — there's no indication the DS option is more reckless, nor any explanation for why an effective squad would suddenly become incompetent and gunned down in the DS version.

 

It really feels like developer cruelty, shoving proscribed moral directions down the player's throat and punishing you for DS choices with inexplicable trap options. This isn't right, because the only option to "fix" it is to level to 50 all over again as a Jedi Knight... all over again. And that's bloody damn stupid.

 

Make fun of me if you must, but I'm being honest: this absolutely ruined the JK plot, and my entire character, for me. I'm so frustrated and demoralized that it effectively ruined the resolution of Corellia, ruined the climax of Chapter 3, and I honestly don't even feel motivated to play the character any more or go to Dromund Kaas and see the ending.

 

Please find whatever storyteller came up with the Jedi Knight Corellia alignment branches, and let them know their hamfisted, rigid, trap-filled design has totally destroyed one player's game experience.

[JLazarillo]

To be fair, they do warn you that the Dark Side objectives are more dangerous for your team. Pretty much every single person who briefs you says something to the effect of "Could you also do this for me? It's hella defended and crazy dangerous but I'll pay you a share of the credits I get out of it".

 

That said, the dark side choices are so ridiculously...shallow that there are still some serious flaws with the way it's set up, IMO.

[_biddan_]

you could have just clicked esc and restart the quest you know...

[TalonVII]

you could have just clicked esc and restart the quest you know...

 

^^^^ this!

[SithKoriandr]

Truthfully, I have no problem with this. If the story is to mean anything, it means you have to live with the consequences. I see no problem with this at all. It does however mean bad things (as well as good things) could happen to your character.

 

I for instance had no idea turning down the marriage proposal on one planet meant I lost out on the Baroness title. Would have liked to have had that tile, but at the same time, I didn't see my BH doing this, so I said no, and I have to live with it, if I want to stay true to my character in the RPG.

[Cavell]

I understand your frustration, OP, but I actually like this aspect of TOR. I like to think of myself as the kind of guy who will play the character the way it's meant to be played no matter the consequences. I'm not that kind of guy, but I like to think of myself that way. In truth, I'll be scum saving to get the right combination of choices in any single-player CRPG I buy, but TOR forces me to make choices blind and live with consequences, so it's a refreshing change of pace.

[zzoorrzz]

I did a few things that I would change too if I could. But it's something u have to get over. If u really can't, that means your character didn't mean that much to you anyway if u could just throw him/her away because of this.

[jovianus]

To echo what others have said above, that's one of the things I like about TOR, is that your choices sometimes have unintended consequences.

 

My only complaint is that in my experience (haven't played through all the classes/options yet) the Light Side doesn't seem to have the same complexity, it's pretty much always 'choose Light Side, happy ending for all." .

 

If A New Hope had taken place in TOR, Obi-Wan would miraculously have survived his duel with Vader, due to the apparent idea that 'nothing bad can ever happen if you do the right thing!"

[errant_knight]

I disagree with the OP. To me what made the jedi story was the way that ds choices started to seem more and more reasonable and the ls ones harder and harder to make. The jedi goes from being an idealistic padawan to a war leader with all the ugly choices that a war leader has to make. It becomes very difficult to stay ls if you're making your choices based on the information you have and a desire to win the war rather than just picking the ls options. I thought they did a brilliant job of showing that staying ls in a time of war was incredibly difficult. It made the story and characterization far more interesting than it would otherwise have been.

[SithKoriandr]

I disagree with the OP. To me what made the jedi story was the way that ds choices started to seem more and more reasonable and the ls ones harder and harder to make. The jedi goes from being an idealistic padawan to a war leader with all the ugly choices that a war leader has to make. It becomes very difficult to stay ls if you're making your choices based on the information you have and a desire to win the war rather than just picking the ls options. I thought they did a brilliant job of showing that staying ls in a time of war was incredibly difficult. It made the story and characterization far more interesting than it would otherwise have been.

 

While I agree. The options could be a little more fleshed out for you to choose from. For instance, on the starting planet, I recall the option was LS = Let Fleshraider train to become Jedi and DS = Don't let Fleshraider train to become Jedi (worded a bit differently of course).

 

Now, what I don't recall seeing with that option (and maybe I just missed it) was DS = Kill the Fleshraider.

[Crawelc]

While I agree. The options could be a little more fleshed out for you to choose from. For instance, on the starting planet, I recall the option was LS = Let Fleshraider train to become Jedi and DS = Don't let Fleshraider train to become Jedi (worded a bit differently of course).

 

Now, what I don't recall seeing with that option (and maybe I just missed it) was DS = Kill the Fleshraider.

 

Are you kidding?

 

 

You force push the dude into a giant bonfire. One of the best scenes on Tython

 

[jovianus]

I still want a DS option on Tython to toss the

baby Fleshraider

off a cliff.

Edited March 30, 2013 by jovianus

[Crawelc]

I still want a DS option on Tython to toss the

baby Fleshraider

off a cliff.

 

I approve of this message

[zzoorrzz]

On a sidenote. I think it would make playing even more interesting if they removed ls/ds mark from the choices before u do them. You would only see the result (preferably after the conversation is finished :-P) Edited March 31, 2013 by zzoorrzz

[Spartanik]

On a sidenote. I think it would make playing even more interesting if they removed ls/ds mark from the choices before u do them. You would only see the result (preferably after the conversation is finished :-P)

 

You can do that yourself already under settings, go social and then check the dialogues tab, something like that. I think that feature is there since release and longer then i c an remember.

 

Also dont ask for stuff that is already in game....

[FuryoftheStars]

On a sidenote. I think it would make playing even more interesting if they removed ls/ds mark from the choices before u do them. You would only see the result (preferably after the conversation is finished :-P)

 

The only problem with that is that some people (myself included) feel as though some of the ls/ds points awarded =/= the dialog option.

[SpacemanR]

so, if you're a jk and make one ds choice on Correlia? You don't become a jk even though all of the other choices you make were light side?

[SithKoriandr]

Are you kidding?

 

 

You force push the dude into a giant bonfire. One of the best scenes on Tython

 

I didnt say it was a bad scene. But there's DS points for saying "No you cant join" and there's DS points for killing them Basically, I didnt know the option was "Kill him"

[FuryoftheStars]

I didnt say it was a bad scene. But there's DS points for saying "No you cant join" and there's DS points for killing them Basically, I didnt know the option was "Kill him"

 

Heh, yeah, I didn't know that either. Most of the rest of the conversation options I get where killing them is a choice, it actually says "kill them".

[maxetius]

Nah it's because ANY dark side choice in Corellia winds up with everyone dying, even when it didn't make any damn sense or was completely unrelated.

 

Not that I cared, the Knight story was a joke dark side anyway. If you wanted to play a force user who had a good story either way, stick to the Sith.

[Crawelc]

Nah it's because ANY dark side choice in Corellia winds up with everyone dying, even when it didn't make any damn sense or was completely unrelated.

 

Not that I cared, the Knight story was a joke dark side anyway. If you wanted to play a force user who had a good story either way, stick to the Sith.

 

Dark side consular is awesome imo. I did it twice.

[RicardoL]

I know this is a old thread, but I agree with OP, I choose one dark side on Corellia, the only one I made in the entire story line, and the game punishes me by killing every other jedi I rescued, even a former Lord sith, and I only chose the Dark Side option, because I didn't like the Light Side one (saving a bunch of criminals instead of attacking the empire, the criminals asked for it, and, those same imperials buchered a lot of defenseless soldiers, honestly, for me, the light side one is just weak) It could have some consequences (as was with one less squad), but this one was just too harsh, and made little sense at all, and a history that would be almost flawless, became a lot worst in my opinion...

 

 

And there is a plot hole too, if you chose only one Dark Side on Corellia, later, when Master Satele congratulates everyone in your squad, she says Var Suthra recommended the highest commendation, but that was after he was killed...)

 

Edited January 14, 2014 by RicardoL

[Canareth]

Another year later but...yeah, just encountered this "gem" via deciding to wipe out the Imperial extermination squads. There is zero indication at the time that this mission will result in extra casualties and in fact it's set up as less risky than the one that doesn't. It's Dark Side because you're ordering a massacre, whether or not the scum deserve it. They do and I figured Corellia would be better off without them given the Emperor's tendency to use murder as a battery. Massacres tend to be safer than large-scale rescue missions...

 

And that's in the mission itself as opposed to what I now find out to be the coded "consequences." There's no logic, let alone indication, that A ------ > B. And being a story in a MMO, there is also no way to backup once you realize what you did. If you do, since as noted the game doesn't tell you.

 

This is quite different from the spare/kill and similar options you encounter in the rest of the story. I don't think there's any option like it anywhere else. And I did the Sith Warrior story and went through the Jaesa process (closest example I can think of). You know if she's going Light or Dark.

 

Just bad production all around.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Canareth

[Diviciacus]

What ruined the JK story for me is that you spend literally months in the Emperor's thrall, and no one, not the Republic military, not the Jedi, not even that dude on the Council who thinks your plan is stupid think to say "Hey, this Jedi just spent months being the emperor's slave.... maybe, just maybe, they should undergo a ton of psych evaluations and rehab?"

 

All the hubris, none of the punishment. It's terrible writing.

[Canareth]

What ruined the JK story for me is that you spend literally months in the Emperor's thrall, and no one, not the Republic military, not the Jedi, not even that dude on the Council who thinks your plan is stupid think to say "Hey, this Jedi just spent months being the emperor's slave.... maybe, just maybe, they should undergo a ton of psych evaluations and rehab?"

 

All the hubris, none of the punishment. It's terrible writing.

 

Especially since it's just been rather...clearly established that the Jedi don't understand the Emperor. I'm not opposed to running around with Lord Scourge immediately because of the information he carries but the degree to which the Council just rolls with all this is bad.

 

Much better would be Act III largely being a rogue or barely sanctioned project because the Council and especially the Republic don't trust your sanity and you can't wait to prove otherwise because everyone will be dead by then. Appointing you General on Corellia is just begging for trouble.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Canareth