Best PVE sniper spec 2.0?

[LordCJK]

If played right yes imho, Engi has good potential. By platyed right meaning, each time you use dodge roll, which is every 20 seconds, you have yourself positioned at the exact right spot so that 5 bombs travel throughout the entire width of the boss.

 

I am not saying engineering is the best spec for tfb nim, "best" is subjective . It is just my personal preference and i posted my parses and reasoning why i'd like other people to try it out for themselves (and see if they get positive results as well). we will find out once the expac hits and we farm end-game content once again.

Alright, thank you. I really like Engineering style, it's fun and enjoying so i hope it won't be worse than hybrid or MM( in general , considering outstanding DPS on big hit circles and decent DPS on medium/small).

[LordCJK]

Think a better way to say it is now engi can compete with the other sniper specs, if used effectively(and treated like a mDPS). What I'm wondering is if they will let us keep it.

Why no? It's not PT/VG's 3K DPS no matter hit circle.

 

The thing is from parses I've seen (mine and paowee's) engi w/o scatter bombs was ~100-150 less dps from what I could tell, and in paowee's 2951 dps parse scatter bombs had roughly 625 dps attributed to them, so only having 2 bombs hit would put engi in line with the other specs. The talente engi will be able to surpass that

 

This is really good. And one more thing about it, it makes add phases really easy. For example, if pre 2.0 engi could compete with other spec , it would really make outstanding help on Kephess NiM, for example.

[bbare]

EDIT:

 

There is also a "soft enrage" in P2. Without the right DPS the most difficult part of the fight is actually P2, not P3. It is imperative that you kill the mobs faster than they spawn otherwise you run the risk of getting overwhelmed. If you have enough DPS for P2, P3 is not going to be a problem. If you don't have enough DPS (and strategy) for P2, then you won't get to P3 at all (which is mainly just tank and spank with target resets).

 

Yep, the time limit on the barriers act as a soft enrage, but hybrids still should be a little better in phase 2, right? They will get pretty much 100% uptime, and they are better than marksman when they don't have to worry about target switching to mobs that will be killed in less than 18 sec.. Marksman doesn't really have an advantage on that phase unlike phase 1.

[CJNJ]

What about multi-dotting in phase 2? Wouldn't that push hybrid over? With the reduced energy on the dots I would think that would be beneficial, but tbh I'm not too familiar with the spec Edited April 6, 2013 by CJNJ

[Liucius]

hello, all of you are telling about specs very interesting, but can you post any link on your builds please, I will be grateful. Thank you!

[paowee]

We can guess all we want but the only definitive answer to these types of questions is posting raid parses. Edited April 16, 2013 by paowee

[MasterJacer]

This really is a complex answer lol. The specs:

Marksman: This spec is nice and buffed in 2.0. You can use FT with nearly everything you would use and a lot of other stuff like ambush buffing 2 snipes, SV fitting right in, and the usability of CD. I have seen parses on dummies for this at 2600. My rotation is pretty much (OS) - Ambush - FT - (Lazed) Snipe - Snipe - FT - SoS - CD - FT (SV).

 

Engineering: This spec is good for large target bosses and massive aoe situations. It can parse up to 2900 then. Otherwise I don't recommend this spec as it parses 2400 in other situations. I don't really know rotation or how to use this spec as I need to learn to. xD

 

Hybrid: This spec is the best overall that I recommend for most PvE situations. It parses at 2700 in normal situations. It really has good burst situations like when between the culls you use EP then SoS. I learned this pretty much just today and I am LOVING it. I am using the rotation IP - CG - CD - Cull - (EP - SoS 1st choice, or use LS, SoS as other options. When low on energy use RS. ) Cull when it comes back up.

 

Lethality: I don't recommend as it parses now 2400/2500. It is crit dependent and that was nerfed in 2.0.

 

Gear wise from what I've heard you want to have an all power build with MM, a mixed crit/power build for Hybrid and for eng....ask Paowee. In fact, idk myself much of the gear balancing, Paowee is a better person to ask with that.

 

This is just my opinion I'm sure there are many others.

Edited April 16, 2013 by MasterJacer

[CJNJ]

Personally I think we need to see more lethality parses, it just seems like there is something missing for it, and it should be parsing higher, to the point where it's on par with MM.

[Svii]

Here is your answer! Behold my glory!

 

Best DPS with special circumstances like wall farting and big hit boxes: Engineer, no competition. 4-600 dps gain from fart bombs.

 

Best Single target 10-15 sec bursts/add duty: Marksmanship > Lethality.

Leth/Eng and Full Engineer has limited burst, _if_ EP is ready, but it's not pleasant to switch targets more often than every 15-20 seconds with these two specs.

 

Best single target long sustained fight: Leth/Eng >= MM ~ Lethality ---> Engineer is viable, if you're good!

 

 

Difficulty rating: Engineer > Marksmanship > Lethality > Leth/Eng.

(Based on brain cells required to obtain 95% efficiency hehe)

 

Reasoning;

Engineer has many long cool down abilities, chaotic skill priority and requires situational awareness. Tracking the Electrified dot is a new mechanic, along with fart bombs (da ****!).

 

MM is very fast and twitchy. FT/Ambush procs needs to be perfect. Do it wrong and your DPS will be pathetic.

 

Lethality is easier since you have a set rotation (more or less) and with two dots you can move around without losing DPS. New mechanic is Takedown proc from Cull and situationally the BIG fart from Covered Escape.

 

Leth/Eng is the easiest to get sustained high DPS with. Many will disagree with me here, but hear me out. Why do you think so many Snipers use this hybrid? Because it's very forgiving as long as you manage your energy. Having 3 DoTs constantly ticking makes it easy to move around while you wait for Cull without losing DPS. Compare it to MM which does _zero_ damage while moving.

 

 

Disclaimer: This is how I feel and don't you dare tell me that my feelings are incorrect.. I WILL CUT YOU!

[Jurugu]

Why do you think so many Snipers use this hybrid?:

 

Because it is touted everywhere on the forums as the best sustained DPS spec? And maybe it even is?

 

Having 3 DoTs constantly ticking makes it easy to move around while you wait for Cull without losing DPS. Compare it to MM which does _zero_ damage while moving.

 

This reasoning is age old, wide spread, and ... false!

 

A little thought experiment, if you please. Let us assume for a second that those 18 second DoTs Leth/Eng has were no DoTs but instead direct damage abilities that delivered all their damage up front but had an 18 second cooldown. (And Cull was somehow adjusted to deliver the same damage under these changed circumstances) The DPS in Tank and Spank would be the same. The DPS in movement fights would be the same, although Leth/Eng would now also do no damage while moving. That would not matter, the damage was already done. Literally.

 

The reason DoTs usually are so great for sustained DPS is not the fact that the damage is doled out over time, to the contrary that is a disadvantage. The only reason things are as they are and that the existing DoTs are so good for sustained DPS is that game designers (justified) compensate for that disadvantage by tuning the damage numbers on DoTs upwards such that they usually have the best damage-per-cast-time ratio of all available abilities.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jurugu

[Svii]

Because it is touted everywhere on the forums as the best sustained DPS spec? And maybe it even is?

 

It probably is, for the reasons I stated.

 

Having 3 DoTs constantly ticking makes it easy to move around while you wait for Cull without losing DPS. Compare it to MM which does _zero_ damage while moving.

 

This reasoning is age old, wide spread, and ... false!

 

Really? I don't buy it, not in this game.

 

DoTs allow you to "derp" around, MM does not allow you to do that.

 

A little thought experiment, if you please. Let us assume for a second that those 18 second DoTs Leth/Eng has were no DoTs but instead direct damage abilities that delivered all their damage up front but had an 18 second cooldown. (And Cull was somehow adjusted to deliver the same damage under these changed circumstances) The DPS in Tank and Spank would be the same. The DPS in movement fights would be the same, although Leth/Eng would now also do no damage while moving. That would not matter, the damage was already done. Literally.

 

I see what you're saying. You could say that this is what MM would look like if we didn't have to stream Followthroughs to keep damage up, just fire off a massive Ambush every 18 seconds.. Lets stick to how the game is today

 

My point is simply that dots "stream" steady, reliable damage, which allow you certain amount of _leniency_ in your rotation.

 

The reason DoTs usually are so great for sustained DPS is not the fact that the damage is doled out over time, to the contrary that is a disadvantage. The only reason things are as they are and that the existing DoTs are so good for sustained DPS is that game designers (justified) compensate for that disadvantage by tuning the damage numbers on DoTs upwards such that they usually have the best damage-per-cast-time ratio of all available abilities.

 

I think you just proved my point? The hybrid exploits this mechanic (justification? compensation?) to allow for a higher net sustained damage.

 

Hey, isn't it great that Snipers have 4 fully viable DPS builds? We can discuss it forever and probably never agree on "best" overall spec, just in certain scenarios. It's more important how you gear and how well you know your build.

[Jurugu]

It seems you have unfortunately and completely missed the point I was trying to make. Let me therefore try one more time, a bit more explicitly now:

 

- DoTs per se in no way make a spec more suitable to movement heavy fights.

 

- DoTs per se in no way make a spec easier to execute.

 

As to what makes me think that way, just go back to the little thought experiment above.

 

A little elaboration maybe on the second one. It is imho pure coincidence that currently the MM spec is the one that has to deal with the Followthrough mechanic. That could just as easily swing the other way. I still remember the time where the Affliction Warlock was the hardest to pull off DPS spec in WoW, with 4+ DoTs to juggle and some extra spells to boost them.

 

Does this apply directly to the question which of the actual MM specs is best? No. But wrong reasoning is wrong even if it happens to lead to the right conclusion, and from time to time I like to point that out.

[Svii]

It seems you have unfortunately and completely missed the point I was trying to make. Let me therefore try one more time, a bit more explicitly now:

 

Pretty sure I got your point, seems like we were talking to each other from different mountains. You're talking in general with experience from WoW (never played it, so I don't have that "luggage"), I'm strictly talking about SWTOR Sniper mechanics as they are per patch 2.0

 

Not disagreeing with your _general_ theorycrafting, just the application of it in this case. I like to be concrete and practical.

 

With that said, people are different and will excel at one spec while being terrible at the other ones. You should play what you like and feel is better for _you_, not anyone else. We're lucky to have so many viable specs, lets hope it stays that way.

 

Cheers!

[Kail_Shefned]

Out of all the testing I've done marksmanship seems to give me the best results in PvE. Maybe I just don't have a good rotation down for the other specs out there, but even running a parser my DPS comes out higher running a pure marksman spec over engineer or lethality.

 

Like I said, with the other two specs, perhaps I just don't have a good rotation set for them.

[paowee]

We're lucky to have so many viable specs, lets hope it stays that way.

 

Cheers!

 

Yep we have 4! MM, Engi, Lethality, Hybrid. I enjoy being able to respec during trash for each boss fight. Helps in reducing burn out. lol

 

Since BW lowered the costs of abilities, as well asthe overall better energy regen this patch, i feel Hybrid's difficulty rating went down a lot. this was the reason hybrid was a bit tough to play pre 2.0 is that people who try it are not used to the limitations and find themselves out of energy faster than if they played pure mm or pure lethality.

 

i'd agree tho that Engi rotation is hard to do 100% perfect . It has more DoTs and debuffs to track than Lethality >_<. It uses a rotation and a priority list in order to do its maximum DPS. As opposed to MM that has a set rotationwith some procs (can't really deviate from that), and ofcourse Hybrid which is just the same abilities all over again and squeezing in RS when you need energy

Edited April 17, 2013 by paowee

[Ardarell_Solo]

I agree that the spec you will chose is above all a matter of how well it fits your personal play style, the strengths and weaknesses you have skillwise. And of course, as always, it's a matter of personal preferences and fun.

 

paowee has clearly been the benchmark for hybrid players pre 2.0 but now he's so enthusiastic about scatter bombs, he likes to squeeze the max dps out of this for others very situationally limited spec - and hell, why shouldn't he have fun with this, even if it's extremely difficult for the rest of us to pull off? :-)

 

I'd agree that hybrid is most forgiving, if you know your rotation and how to manage your energy. In other words, it's the most reliable constant dps spec over all fights and the most valuable for your raid in average for two reaseons: You can do max dps on the move, even when e.g. Dashroode is moved through the sandstorm: Put your dots on him while running sideways and turning the camera running at full speed to the far end of the shield. Channel your cull until you're at the end of the shield, then use you're roll to get up front again. Rinse and repeat.

Secondly in burn phases - and BW seems to love them more and more - when max dps is required for at least the duration of one complete rotation (and boss burn phases tend to be longer than that), hybrid shines, even if he has to keep his distance or keep moving while doing it.

 

Same goes for any scenario in which you need to move out of aoe zones: You can always still apply your three dots on the run and if you have good intuition you can time your culls inbetween...

 

I'd disagree that hybrid is generally the easiest spec to play, especially when target switches are needed. To know in which scenarios it's enough to just use the window inbetween your two culls for that or when you will need to actually use a full dot rotation or when just one orbital plus X is enough, is a matter of a lot of experience with hybrid spec - and you improve with that continuously, even after having played hybrid a long time.

 

In short: If you're really experienced in hybrid and you've not just started playing sniper/gunslinger because it's FOTM since 2.0., hybrid is still THE steamrolling valuble raid dps spec imho - especially if you're not just looking at the dps numbers per se, but wether you contributed to your raid's sucess, when it really counted. :-)

Edited April 17, 2013 by Ardarell_Solo

[Kelderek]

Instead of choosing a specific spec to talk about, I would like to point out a few skills in the skill tree that I have found to be particularly important and/or useful in 2.0:

 

Marksmanship -- Having 3% accuracy from skill points is significant now at the early gearing stage of this content. In order to hit the 100%/110% cap for accuracy, you need a TON of accuracy rating. Without this skill you would likely need accuracy in every available slot. With the skill I have accuracy in everything except maybe 2 or 3 items which I have surge in. Even so, my crit multiplier is only around 64-65%. I'm hoping that in full Underworld gear we can squeeze in more surge, perhaps the extra accuracy rating will be enough to switch out a single accuracy enhancement.

 

Engineer Tool Belt -- This is a personal favorite of mine. You would only have this in a hybrid or full engineering build and you really want to combine it with Experimental Explosives and Explosive Engineering to make it really shine. There are just too many places where this is useful in PVE: soloing, FPs, Ops -- just about all aspects of the game have some element of AOE from time to time and this is one of the best AOEs in the game. Frag grenade can also be a useful filler on a single target boss when moving if all of your other instant abilities are on CD and your DOTs are already applied. In the hybrid spec I can also mix in CG in between some of the Frag grenades which adds even more AOE damage.

 

 

I am loving the low energy requirements for hybrid now. I rarely ever use RS any more and I have enough energy return from crits even with a low 23.5% crit chance (I may lower that even more, I have 116 crit rating right now).

 

A funny side note: I hit 1337 bonus tech damage yesterday on the character sheet, that gave me a good laugh

[namesaretough]

Personally I think we need to see more lethality parses, it just seems like there is something missing for it, and it should be parsing higher, to the point where it's on par with MM.

 

I think it will be a few weeks until we can accurately judge full lethality parses on live, just because it needs the 4pc set bonus so much. The leth snipers/DF gunslingers I know are still using 63 armorings, while I can run MM/SS using off-set 69/72 armorings and not miss the bonuses much. Once we see a bunch of people with 4pc 69s/72s I think we'll get a better idea of the relative strength of the two specs.

 

Also, lethality will scale with gear a little better than MM will, I think, once we get a few more itemization points we can put in crit.

 

As an aside, I think a bonus to MM that a lot of people are overlooking is the ability to use OS without really having to plan for it. Even ignoring the shorter cooldown, S&V bosses have a lot of burn phases and adds that need killing. As MM, just make sure you have OS and SV off cooldown and you're good to go. You don't need make sure you have AP (or even TA) up to get energy back. You need to plan a lot further ahead using Leth or Leth/eng to drop an orbital and not run yourself low on energy.

Edited April 17, 2013 by namesaretough

[baskboy]

Instead of choosing a specific spec to talk about, I would like to point out a few skills in the skill tree that I have found to be particularly important and/or useful in 2.0:

 

Marksmanship -- Having 3% accuracy from skill points is significant now at the early gearing stage of this content. In order to hit the 100%/110% cap for accuracy, you need a TON of accuracy rating. Without this skill you would likely need accuracy in every available slot. With the skill I have accuracy in everything except maybe 2 or 3 items which I have surge in. Even so, my crit multiplier is only around 64-65%. I'm hoping that in full Underworld gear we can squeeze in more surge, perhaps the extra accuracy rating will be enough to switch out a single accuracy enhancement.

 

REPLAY

With replay on kelderek: what my plan is and already working on is getting the purple earpiece and 2 implants and also eigent them with accuracy augments this with the normal companion bonus on +1% accuracy wil give about 99,56% accuracy (sorry dont now the name of the earpiece and implants but check the untimed gear for the dps the highest one in accuracy) with mabey 1 or 2 other accuracy augments in the relic wil give you the change to use Mods and enchement for crit, surge and power!

 

Memo i am working to the old stats 30% crit and 75% surge i dont now if this wil be the new/old best stats that is what we need to see what people wil find. What i recomand dont trow your old mod enchement away even if it's a unbalanced one.

 

Other thing to note i now/understand that alacrity is something new what would give bether energy/force regen, but ATM i am not Sure if spending those stats in this. If it wil happen i am also thinking on usesing augments for it to ^^

 

That is what i would recomand i dont now if everyone agree but i. My opinion getting al your accuracy you need in 3 items and 5 augments is pretty faire?

 

Also sorry for my bad english XD

[paowee]

Honestly, why would you do that?

 

The bosses heal when one of them dies, and if you do too much DPS to Ciphas when Heirad is still up/Kel'sara when Ciphas or Heirad are still up, they get buffs and the fight gets harder.

 

It'd pump your DPS numbers, but without any actual benefit and may even make the fight *more* difficult.

Oh i didnt see your post. I think you misunderstood me. I meant to say that for DG Council, i WILL respec out of Engineering.. for obvious reasons

 

I'm curious, why leave out FT after your first Ambush? The SOS will refresh the cooldown anyway.

Probably a mis type on my part. Good catch! Yes FT after every Ambush or SoS or 2 Snipes is correct.

Edited April 20, 2013 by paowee

[CJNJ]

Just curious but how would the addition of takedown affect MM parses? Seeing as takedown will also proc FT you should have even better uptime of it, wouldn't this be a significant boost for execute phases? Not talking sin/shadow significant but nice none the less

[paowee]

Just curious but how would the addition of takedown affect MM parses? Seeing as takedown will also proc FT you should have even better uptime of it, wouldn't this be a significant boost for execute phases? Not talking sin/shadow significant but nice none the less

 

True! That's why MM is perfect for DM Styrak with all the medium HP adds that spawn.

[Svii]

I don't feel that Takedown is a massive boost to MM because of the long cool down and you'll (usually) only get to shoot one TD even on elites/champions if the other DPS is up to par. It hits like a truck and should be used whenever you can, especially because it procs FT which can often be used on the next target.

 

Fast target switching, good skill priority and knowing the fight provides the best DPS. Eating dirt is 0 DPS, so stay alive out there! ^^

[paowee]

I don't feel that Takedown is a massive boost to MM because of the long cool down and you'll (usually) only get to shoot one TD even on elites/champions if the other DPS is up to par. It hits like a truck and should be used whenever you can, especially because it procs FT which can often be used on the next target.

 

Fast target switching, good skill priority and knowing the fight provides the best DPS. Eating dirt is 0 DPS, so stay alive out there! ^^

 

Try it out guys when u can for Styrak, do a fight with MM and then next one try Hybrid. I'm trying to make hybrid work but it seems MM is the choice for that fight. I'm looking at torparse and the other snipers who have downed that boss and so far there is none. lol. that fight is very good for marauders (in my guild they run annihilation) and they just do awesome deeps in that fight.

[doubleDees]

Paowee

 

Downed it last weekend.

 

Theprofesional (Girth)

Edited April 19, 2013 by doubleDees