Cartel Packs and Gambling Addiction

[RuQu]

Problem: Cartel Packs are a probabilistic reward system that can be readily purchased with a credit card.

 

Solution 1: Apply a weekly cap on Cartel Pack and Hypercrate purchases. This cap would not limit or in any way affect other, non-random, purchases on the Cartel Market or in-game purchases that utilize Cartel Coins (ie Legacy, cargo bay, etc).

 

Solution 2: Put a gambling awareness / help message on the cartel packs, or the Packs tab of the Cartel Market.

 

Solution 3: Put a commendation in every pack, with the ability to purchase any item in the packs from the vendor for a given number of commendations. This puts a floor on the value of a pack, preventing it from being zero regardless of how the user defines value (credits, BoP rep items that need certs, etc).

 

Solution 4: Add a "parental controls" lock on the Cartel Market. People who feel they have a problem can ask a family member's assistance in locking them out of excessive purchases. (Suggested by Urael)

 

Further Explanation:

Gambling addiction is a widespread societal problem. It does not require that the rewards be in terms of real cash paid back to the gambler, simply that the reward be something the gambler values.

 

The negative effects of gambling addiction are typically felt by those around the gambler, not the gambler themselves.

 

With Cartel Coins being purchased on credit, problem gamblers can actually drive themselves into debt through their purchases.

 

This does not negatively affect the ability of players to use the Cartel Market to convert dollars to credits, as non-random non-bound items can still be purchased from the CM and posted to the GTN. Additionally, the cap can be set at some reasonable value, such as 5 Hypercrates a month, that still allows for considerable transfer of funds while imposing a limit on the gambling nature of the experience. 5 Hypercrates still amounts to approx $265, and at the current price of approx 300k per Cartel Pack comes to 36 million credits. I would suggest it could be set as low as 2 per month and still not negatively impact 99.999% of non-gambler players.

Edited March 21, 2013 by RuQu

[akabane_k]

telling EA to do something that will reduce their profits, good luck with that

[RuQu]

telling EA to do something that will reduce their profits, good luck with that

 

How many packs do most players buy? 1.5 a month with their complimentary coins? An odd pack here and there?

 

How many actually buy the $53 hypercrates? How many do they buy on average per month?

 

Just like the cell phone companies eliminating the unlimited data plans when the vast majority don't exceed the cheapest limited plan, you could easily put a cap in place that hardly affects anyone at all while still letting you put out a press release about how you are looking out for your players by adding in protection against gambling addiction.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Ya know what, OP? There is something called "responsibility" and it's something everyone should learn when it comes to spending money. It's not liek they're being robbed here, they're willingly buying things on the cartel market. And if they suffer the consequences, or the family, of that person then it's absolutely only their problem. No one should babysit adults.

 

You want them to impose limits and then what? There are players who have "too much" money and they spend it on this game. Or they have no other spending dreams or priorities, instead they love their game. Will you restrict them from buying what they like? Good lot of players buy hypercrates in large amounts. Especially students on college grants -_-

Edited March 20, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[RuQu]

Ya know what, OP? There is something called "responsibility" and it's something everyone should learn when it comes to spending money. It's not liek they're being robbed here, they're willingly buying things on the cartel market. And if they suffer the consequences, or the family, of that person then it's absolutely only their problem. No one should babysit adults.

 

You want them to impose limits and then what? There are players who have "too much" money and they spend it on this game. Or they have no other spending dreams or priorities, instead they love their game. Will you restrict them from buying what they like? Good lot of players buy hypercrates in large amounts. Especially students on college grants -_-

 

You clearly don't understand the concept of 'addiction,' or you have a pathological lack of empathy.

 

As for the rest, I commend your reading comprehension skills. I explicitly stated the following right at the start:

This cap would not limit or in any way affect other, non-random, purchases on the Cartel Market or in-game purchases that utilize Cartel Coins

 

All of those items are capable of being traded. You can sell the orange +41 crystals from the market, the G7 ship parts, the character slot unlocks, the inventory and cosmetic unlocks, all of it.

 

The reference to college students seems remarkably irrelevant. They are not immune to gambling addiction, in fact my roommate in college had a serious gambling problem. That they are spending their scholarship money on non-educational expenses reinforces my point.

[Infernixx]

Being an adult means taking responsibility for your actions.

 

And don't worry about the people who buy packs because they're...lol....ah, 'addicted'. Once they run out of money, the problem will solve itself.

[TravelersWay]

The reference to college students seems remarkably irrelevant. They are not immune to gambling addiction, in fact my roommate in college had a serious gambling problem. That they are spending their scholarship money on non-educational expenses reinforces my point.

 

Then perhaps your crusade should start with the long-standing purveyors of such misery before taking on the smaller subset that comprises the computer gaming industry, and the even smaller subset that is SWTOR.

[RuQu]

Being an adult means taking responsibility for your actions.

 

And don't worry about the people who buy packs because they're...lol....ah, 'addicted'. Once they run out of money, the problem will solve itself.

 

Being unable to not engage in harmful activities despite it being harmful is pretty much THE defining trait of addiction. So you're about as wrong as it's possible to be.

 

As for "running out of money," that works at a casino where they only take cash, but the CM takes credit cards and those are pretty easy to come by. You can keep spending long after you run out of money.

[RuQu]

Then perhaps your crusade should start with the long-standing purveyors of such misery before taking on the smaller subset that comprises the computer gaming industry, and the even smaller subset that is SWTOR.

 

Yes, don't feed the hungry person on the street corner in your town because we haven't solved the problem of starving children by the millions in Africa. Perfectly reasonable.

 

Let's just not make any positive small changes because they won't stop the big problems of the world.

[TheNahash]

If I remember correctly, there is already a limit to how many cartel coins you can buy in one day.

 

People can also become addicted to the game itself. Do you think there should be a cap on how many hours per week we are allowed to play?

[Infernixx]

Being unable to not engage in harmful activities despite it being harmful is pretty much THE defining trait of addiction. So you're about as wrong as it's possible to be.

 

As for "running out of money," that works at a casino where they only take cash, but the CM takes credit cards and those are pretty easy to come by. You can keep spending long after you run out of money.

 

You say 'unable'...I say 'unwilling'.

 

And if their CCs continue to issue credit long after they've breached their limits, then that's a problem for the companies and the card holder to resolve.

 

BW is no more responsible for curbing bad spending habits as any other company. Would you expect McDonald's to look at someone and go "no, I'm sorry, you're too overweight, we can't serve you. There's the door."

 

Would you expect a high end clothing store to have limits on how much any person can buy?

 

Perhaps you think it's okay for a car company to limit customers to certain cars based on price, lest they overspend on luxury vehicles that they don't need?

 

I have a solution for all those people out there who are 'unable' to stop spending: Spend it all and when you're broke, your addiction will be cured!

 

And if you're feeling lucky, you can send me $50 in Paypal and there's a 10% chance that I'll send you a certificate of authenticity.

[Vandicus]

Yes, don't feed the hungry person on the street corner in your town because we haven't solved the problem of starving children by the millions in Africa. Perfectly reasonable.

 

Let's just not make any positive small changes because they won't stop the big problems of the world.

 

Strawman argument. While it requires a great deal more effort to feed millions of people than one, it requires the same amount of effort to make a critical post or file a complaint regarding either group. If you could feed millions of people with the effort it takes to feed that one, then you would be making a grave mistake to feed the one instead of the millions.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Vandicus

[RandyAB]

As someone who suffered because of the gambling addiction of another (my father wasted a lot of our family's money on poker) I completely understand where the OP is coming from as it is usually the family members who are hurt most by the addict's problem (as with many different types of addiction).

 

However, as someone who suffered because of the gambling addiction of another, I do not think for one second that it's EA's responsibility to protect anyone from themselves. The online poker sites my father lost our money on were not to blame for our situation, my father was. It was his responsibility as an adult with people depending on him and his choices to make good choices and avoid situations or possibilities that would lead him to make bad choices, or to seek professional help if he found he was unable to control himself. He chose to continually make bad choices. That's nobody's fault but his own, and I can't and don't blame online poker sites or his friends who hosted poker nights leading to him losing our money, nor do I have the right to expect them to do anything different because my father wouldn't do anything about his gambling problem.

 

It's no different than any other habits people have that may end up hurting them that they may want to blame a company for. If you choose to eat a Big Mac meal twice a day every day and get fat, that's not McDonald's fault, that's your fault. If you choose to drink a case of beer, then get in your car and have an accident, that's not Budweiser's fault, that's your fault. And if you spend a few hundred dollars on cartel packs, then don't have money to pay the electric bill, that's not EA's fault, that's your fault. While these examples are obviously different in their own ways, the fact is none of the three companies did anything wrong in these examples, and none have an obligation to operate differently. EA shouldn't have to limit the number of cartel packs you can buy any more than McDonald's should make you order with a photo ID so they can get your name and limit the number of Big Macs you can buy.

 

TLDR version: While I agree that gambling addiction is a serious societal problem and the cartel packs can be extremely tempting and easy to get for people with such a problem, the solution is ultimately one of personal responsibility, and no business should have to operate differently to protect irresponsible people from themselves.

[Kubernetic]

I do think there need to be some warnings, specifically for people on certain types of medications, that is presented to people before they are ever allowed into the Cartel Market.

 

Yes, we should all have personal responsibility, but this is a money-making venture, and as such, BioWare has some responsibility to insure that they are using best practices and being as ethical as possible.

 

In some cases, these drugs are related to Parkinson's Disease, and cause pathological gambling addiction based on a tweak of the dopamine receptors in the player's brain.

 

Here's an article which describes some of this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0712_050712_parkinsons.html

 

Since they aren't a casino, and obviously aren't trying to be, I'd think a warning screen like this or two would suffice, and the rest really does have to reside within the responsibility of the player, the players friends and families, or the players' parents or loved ones.

 

I think there is a very happy medium somewhere between the current stance of "Gambling? What's that? This isn't gamlbing!" and "You can't buy more than one cartel pack per month." I hope BioWare seeks that happy medium.

 

Some kind of warning at least should be implemented.

 

EDIT: After further consideration, I think it would be nice for the game itself (specifically, visible on the Cartel Market interface) to have prompts for some kind of a "Help" button or something that leads to some listings for local Gambler's Anonymous programs. I've noticed in certain commercials, especially on California radio, if a casino advertises itself on-air, it has to add a slight blurb at the end with a number for assistance if you need help with a Gambling addiction. I think this would be a relevant addition as well.

 

Most might not care. But it might help a few people out.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Kubernetic

[Infernixx]

I do think there need to be some warnings, specifically for people on certain types of medications, that is presented to people before they are ever allowed into the Cartel Market.

 

Yes, we should all have personal responsibility, but this is a money-making venture, and as such, BioWare has some responsibility to insure that they are using best practices and being as ethical as possible.

 

In some cases, these drugs are related to Parkinson's Disease, and cause pathological gambling addiction based on a tweak of the dopamine receptors in the player's brain.

 

Here's an article which describes some of this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0712_050712_parkinsons.html

 

Since they aren't a casino, and obviously aren't trying to be, I'd think a warning screen like this or two would suffice, and the rest really does have to reside within the responsibility of the player, the players friends and families, or the players' parents or loved ones.

 

I think there is a very happy medium somewhere between the current stance of "Gambling? What's that? This isn't gamlbing!" and "You can't buy more than one cartel pack per month." I hope BioWare seeks that happy medium.

 

Some kind of warning at least should be implemented.

 

The medium is "Expect adults to be adults."

[RuQu]

I do think there need to be some warnings, specifically for people on certain types of medications, that is presented to people before they are ever allowed into the Cartel Market.

 

Yes, we should all have personal responsibility, but this is a money-making venture, and as such, BioWare has some responsibility to insure that they are using best practices and being as ethical as possible.

 

In some cases, these drugs are related to Parkinson's Disease, and cause pathological gambling addiction based on a tweak of the dopamine receptors in the player's brain.

 

Here's an article which describes some of this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0712_050712_parkinsons.html

 

Since they aren't a casino, and obviously aren't trying to be, I'd think a warning screen like this or two would suffice, and the rest really does have to reside within the responsibility of the player, the players friends and families, or the players' parents or loved ones.

 

I think there is a very happy medium somewhere between the current stance of "Gambling? What's that? This isn't gamlbing!" and "You can't buy more than one cartel pack per month." I hope BioWare seeks that happy medium.

 

Some kind of warning at least should be implemented.

 

*emphasis added*

 

This is all I'm driving at. At the end of my post I suggested 1 crate. Earlier I suggest 5. I'm not going to seriously petition for any given set of rules, simply raise the question of "What is the ethical way to approach a gambling based business model? How can we strike a balance between the innately Skinner Box style of reward MMOs are based around and our need to make money?"

[Infernixx]

*emphasis added*

 

This is all I'm driving at. At the end of my post I suggested 1 crate. Earlier I suggest 5. I'm not going to seriously petition for any given set of rules, simply raise the question of "What is the ethical way to approach a gambling based business model? How can we strike a balance between the innately Skinner Box style of reward MMOs are based around and our need to make money?"

 

RNG is not gambling.

[Kubernetic]

The medium is "Expect adults to be adults."

 

I'm sorry, but the "It's your own fault if you gave me all your money because of a pharmacological issue that you had absolutely no control over in your personal life" attitude is a non-starter.

 

No.

 

The medium is somewhere beyond, "It's your fault and no one else's", and is even further beyond the point of realizing "I have created a system that can assist in destroying people's lives through no fault of their own, and I am responsible for providing at least a single warning in their favor."

[RuQu]

TLDR version: While I agree that gambling addiction is a serious societal problem and the cartel packs can be extremely tempting and easy to get for people with such a problem, the solution is ultimately one of personal responsibility, and no business should have to operate differently to protect irresponsible people from themselves.

 

Except that real world gambling based establishments do. They can't take credit cards and most states mandate Gambling Addiction assistance information be visibly posted or included in advertisements. The CM avoids this because it cannot be turned back into real cash, but that is a legal technicality, and unrelated to the mental process of the addiction itself.

[RuQu]

Strawman argument. While it requires a great deal more effort to feed millions of people than one, it requires the same amount of effort to make a critical post or file a complaint regarding either group. If you could feed millions of people with the effort it takes to feed that one, then you would be making a grave mistake to feed the one instead of the millions.

 

No, the original argument that I must tackle larger problems before raising smaller ones is directly what I am addressing.

 

It could also be argued that any time spent tackling Gambling Addiction at all is time wasted, because those exact same dollars and man-hours could be used to fight malaria, the #1 killer in the world. The cost/effort is being used sub-optimally. That the greatest humanitarian benefit is not being reaped from my 5 minutes of internet typing is not the point, and does not mean that this is a non-issue. It is certainly smaller than malaria, but that does not mean that it should not be discussed.

[Kubernetic]

RNG is not gambling.

 

If you mean "RNG" to represent "Random Number Generator"...

 

You mean like all those RNGs in slot machines and video poker machines, and the old analog randomizer being used at the card tables with the shuffling devices and card shoes?

 

RNGs surround the gambling experience. Many people's false beliefs about random numbers is in fact one of the things that gets them the worst.

 

Roulette table boards are a perfect example. Anyone who sees that board and sees that the last 5 spins came up red and believes that means it's a good chance the next will be a black just completely missed the point of random numbers. Those boards are high profits for casinos, due to player ignorance.

 

No, a random number generator is not a gambling experience. You can click it all day long and just see what numbers come up, guessing over and over. But as soon as you attach a cost to triggering that random number generator, and have attached a reward based on a certain result, NOW you have a gambling machine.

 

_____

 

I'm not saying the casinos need to get rid of the tally boards. But to tell me that you can't even be bothered to put a sticker on the front door to the casino that says, "For help with a gambling addiction, call..." is outlandishly selfish and unethical, IMHO.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Kubernetic

[RuQu]

If you mean "RNG" to represent "Random Number Generator"...

 

You mean like all those RNGs in slot machines and video poker machines, and the old analog randomizer being used at the card tables with the shuffling devices and card shoes?

 

RNGs surround the gambling experience. Many people's false beliefs about random numbers is in fact one of the things that gets them the worst.

 

Roulette table boards are a perfect example. Anyone who sees that board and sees that the last 5 spins came up red and believes that means it's a good chance the next will be a black just completely missed the point of random numbers. Those boards are high profits for casinos, due to player ignorance.

 

I'm not saying the casinos need to get rid of the tally boards. But to tell me that you can't even be bothered to put a sticker on the front door to the casino that says, "For help with a gambling addiction, call..." is outlandishly selfish and unethical, IMHO.

 

Pretty sure he's just trolling. I'm willing to entertain the idea he is actually a troll and eats babies and will die if exposed to sunlight.

[Infernixx]

If you mean "RNG" to represent "Random Number Generator"...

 

You mean like all those RNGs in slot machines and video poker machines, and the old analog randomizer being used at the card tables with the shuffling devices and card shoes?

 

RNGs surround the gambling experience. Many people's false beliefs about random numbers is in fact one of the things that gets them the worst.

 

Roulette table boards are a perfect example. Anyone who sees that board and sees that the last 5 spins came up red and believes that means it's a good chance the next will be a black just completely missed the point of random numbers. Those boards are high profits for casinos, due to player ignorance.

 

No, a random number generator is not a gambling experience. You can click it all day long and just see what numbers come up, guessing over and over. But as soon as you attach a cost to triggering that random number generator, and have attached a reward based on a certain result, NOW you have a gambling machine.

 

_____

 

I'm not saying the casinos need to get rid of the tally boards. But to tell me that you can't even be bothered to put a sticker on the front door to the casino that says, "For help with a gambling addiction, call..." is outlandishly selfish and unethical, IMHO.

 

TOR is not a casino. The use of RNG to randomize rewards is not the same thing as gambling.

 

To put it short and simple for everyone to grasp: When you buy a pack, you're guaranteed a certain number of rewards. The only thing that's up in the air is just 'what' you get. You're guaranteed something, but you're not guaranteed to get what you want. That's Random.

 

That's why it's not gambling.

[BobaScott]

TOR is not a casino. The use of RNG to randomize rewards is not the same thing as gambling.

 

To put it short and simple for everyone to grasp: When you buy a pack, you're guaranteed a certain number of rewards. The only thing that's up in the air is just 'what' you get. You're guaranteed something, but you're not guaranteed to get what you want. That's Random.

 

That's why it's not gambling.

 

I bought three of the recent ones because I had the coins sitting there. I got about 40k of value (looked it up on GTN) out of all of them in total. That's the cartel pack version of three cherries in a slot machine.

 

Had I instead got a couple of skiffs and whatever other ultra rare items they have, it would translate to millions worth of credits, or three 7s.

 

To put it short and simple for everyone to grasp: When you buy a pack, you may win big or you may lose. It is a gamble.

[RuQu]

TOR is not a casino. The use of RNG to randomize rewards is not the same thing as gambling.

 

To put it short and simple for everyone to grasp: When you buy a pack, you're guaranteed a certain number of rewards. The only thing that's up in the air is just 'what' you get. You're guaranteed something, but you're not guaranteed to get what you want. That's Random.

 

That's why it's not gambling.

 

So if a casino said "For every dollar you put into the slot machine, 5 or more items will come out," it wouldn't be gambling?

 

Even if some of those items were stale jelly beans or dried rabbit droppings? So long as you are guaranteed "something" it isn't gambling?

 

You know that's wrong. The gambling is based on the random value of the return. They pay money, they get something that may be valuable and may be nearly worthless. It is a probabilistic (and independent) transfer of a fixed amount of money into a variable amount of value.

 

One alternative is to make the Cartel Rep vendors sell everything for a a fixed number of cartel certificates, but then have every pack drop either a full certificate or an item that X number of can be combined into a certificate. Now there is an upper limit on the cost of every item, and it ceases to be, at least by my definition, gambling. You might get lucky and get that mount on the first one, or you might get unlucky and have to open all 20 to have enough tokens to buy it, but you will never need more than 20. (Note that 20 is a random number for this proposed mount merely used as an example).