Cartel Packs and Gambling Addiction

[Infernixx]

Or the options you ignore:

 

3) Only the most recent packs are gambling, because the previous packs only included items that were BoE and therefore could be sold for credits, and the credits from the items you didnt want could buy the items you did. The new packs contain certificates which are BoP, with no other way to obtain them, and a random chance to drop in exchange for money.

 

This means that it has only been gambling for 2 weeks, and before that was a cash for credits exchange.

 

4) The law simply hasn't caught up to the idea that digital items have value.

 

So, it's the certificates that are the core of the 'gambling'. Because they're not 'guaranteed'? Or just because the drop rate isn't high enough?

 

Everything else is kosher in your eyes. Gotcha.

[kevlarto]

Maybe they should put a disclaimer on the cartel. kinda like the city of Las Vegas does, there are all kinds of little pamphlet's around in the casino called "when the fun stops" and tells people where they can go if they feel like they have a gambling addiction, gambling is not the only addiction people can get online games themsleves can become an addiction. I don't see Las Vegas closing down anytime soon.. People have to police themselves, and know where to go if they have a problem. /shrug

[Khevar]

I just had a funny thought.

 

When I take a grade 27 mainhand barrel out of a hard-won piece of gear and RE for a 20% chance to learn the schematic, I get an actual rush. It's a little fear, it's a tightening of my chest, it's an excitement, it's any number of physiological reactions. If I "win" the RE and learn the schematic (love the *boom* sound) it's extremely exciting.

 

Now, I also happen to be an amateur craps player, and have tried my luck in Vegas. I've occasionally thrown caution to the winds and dropped $250 on a hard-10 hop. I get the Exact. Same. Feeling. The same reactions, the same rush, the same excitement.

 

I would never in a million years ever say that RE'ing for a schematic is gambling, as far as any definition goes, legally, morally, or otherwise.

 

And yet, at least to me, it FEELS like gambling. Emotionally anyway.

 

Now, I'm not addicted to either activity. And I don't think people are addicted to Cartel Packs either. But I wanted to draw this comparison, just to throw some fuel on the fire and see what y'all think of this.

[Infernixx]

Maybe they should put a disclaimer on the cartel. kinda like the city of Las Vegas does, there are all kinds of little pamphlet's around in the casino called "when the fun stops" and tells people where they can go if they feel like they have a gambling addiction, gambling is not the only addiction people can get online games themsleves can become an addiction. I don't see Las Vegas closing down anytime soon.. People have to police themselves, and know where to go if they have a problem. /shrug

 

Well, that would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit, as online gambling isn't allowed in the U.S and any suggestion, in-game, of gambling would get them shut down in a hurry.

 

But since 'gambling' is taking a risk with your money and you're guaranteed items with each Pack, it's a moot point.

[TheBBP]

Or the options you ignore:

 

3) Only the most recent packs are gambling, because the previous packs only included items that were BoE and therefore could be sold for credits, and the credits from the items you didnt want could buy the items you did. The new packs contain certificates which are BoP, with no other way to obtain them, and a random chance to drop in exchange for money.

 

This means that it has only been gambling for 2 weeks, and before that was a cash for credits exchange.

 

4) The law simply hasn't caught up to the idea that digital items have value.

The more that you post it is sounding like this is all about you being mad over the Reseller Faction grind.

[RuQu]

So, it's the certificates that are the core of the 'gambling'. Because they're not 'guaranteed'? Or just because the drop rate isn't high enough?

 

Everything else is kosher in your eyes. Gotcha.

 

In fact, yes. I have absolutely zero problem with the pre-1.7 Cartel Market. The packs were a poor use of money, any item I wanted in them I bought on the GTN.

 

The 1.7 packs, however, are gambling if a person is trying to buy certs. A person with plenty of credits, chasing certs, can easily blow hundreds of dollars.

 

Add in the minimum of 1 commendation per pack with an exchange of X commendations per cert (make it 100, I don't care) and I will gladly retract my complaint. It would still take potentially hundreds of dollars, but a floor value would be assigned to each pack (1/X of a cert).

[Andryah]

TLDR version: While I agree that gambling addiction is a serious societal problem and the cartel packs can be extremely tempting and easy to get for people with such a problem, the solution is ultimately one of personal responsibility, and no business should have to operate differently to protect irresponsible people from themselves.

 

/Agree with RandyABs assessment.

 

Cartel packs are not the core issue, they are simply an instrument of expression of a core issue.

 

Address the core issue, NOT the instruments of expression.

[RuQu]

The more that you post it is sounding like this is all about you being mad over the Reseller Faction grind.

 

You're wrong.

 

I looked at the items on the vendor. I have no interest in any of them.

 

I don't max factions just to max factions. I have Friend with Section X and Newcomer in Hyperspace. No interest in farming Voss or Gree, and the ones I have are just from me enjoying the occasional space mission and doing dailies while in queue.

[ikinai]

In fact, yes. I have absolutely zero problem with the pre-1.7 Cartel Market. The packs were a poor use of money, any item I wanted in them I bought on the GTN.

 

The 1.7 packs, however, are gambling if a person is trying to buy certs. A person with plenty of credits, chasing certs, can easily blow hundreds of dollars.

 

Add in the minimum of 1 commendation per pack with an exchange of X commendations per cert (make it 100, I don't care) and I will gladly retract my complaint. It would still take potentially hundreds of dollars, but a floor value would be assigned to each pack (1/X of a cert).

 

So essentially you are denigrating people with real addiction problems because you aren't getting what you want? Nice.

[Infernixx]

In fact, yes. I have absolutely zero problem with the pre-1.7 Cartel Market. The packs were a poor use of money, any item I wanted in them I bought on the GTN.

 

The 1.7 packs, however, are gambling if a person is trying to buy certs. A person with plenty of credits, chasing certs, can easily blow hundreds of dollars.

 

Add in the minimum of 1 commendation per pack with an exchange of X commendations per cert (make it 100, I don't care) and I will gladly retract my complaint. It would still take potentially hundreds of dollars, but a floor value would be assigned to each pack (1/X of a cert).

 

Well, why didn't you just say that you were kosher with Cartel Packs and just irritated at low drop rates? God, I could have just said

 

RNG IS RANDOM.

 

and been done with it.

[RuQu]

I just had a funny thought.

 

When I take a grade 27 mainhand barrel out of a hard-won piece of gear and RE for a 20% chance to learn the schematic, I get an actual rush. It's a little fear, it's a tightening of my chest, it's an excitement, it's any number of physiological reactions. If I "win" the RE and learn the schematic (love the *boom* sound) it's extremely exciting.

 

Now, I also happen to be an amateur craps player, and have tried my luck in Vegas. I've occasionally thrown caution to the winds and dropped $250 on a hard-10 hop. I get the Exact. Same. Feeling. The same reactions, the same rush, the same excitement.

 

I would never in a million years ever say that RE'ing for a schematic is gambling, as far as any definition goes, legally, morally, or otherwise.

 

And yet, at least to me, it FEELS like gambling. Emotionally anyway.

 

Now, I'm not addicted to either activity. And I don't think people are addicted to Cartel Packs either. But I wanted to draw this comparison, just to throw some fuel on the fire and see what y'all think of this.

 

Now imagine if the materials to make the RE item cost real money.

 

And it was just a few button clicks away to spend some more money to try again. REing would be very, very similar to small purchase gambling like scratch off tickets. Most people ignore them, a few buy one every now and then, and once in a while you see that guy at the gas station with a pile at his feet, turning in every win for a few more.

[TheNahash]

In fact, yes. I have absolutely zero problem with the pre-1.7 Cartel Market. The packs were a poor use of money, any item I wanted in them I bought on the GTN.

 

The 1.7 packs, however, are gambling if a person is trying to buy certs. A person with plenty of credits, chasing certs, can easily blow hundreds of dollars.

 

Add in the minimum of 1 commendation per pack with an exchange of X commendations per cert (make it 100, I don't care) and I will gladly retract my complaint. It would still take potentially hundreds of dollars, but a floor value would be assigned to each pack (1/X of a cert).

 

Why is that OK, then?

Aren't there people who'll just keep on paying until they get every single one of those "super rare" items? Shouldn't they be protected?

Why is spending hundreds of dollars for one item acceptable and spending the same amount of money for random items not acceptable?

Edited March 20, 2013 by TheNahash

[Andryah]

Stop, just stop.

 

You are trivializing real gambling addiction. You aren't helping.

 

/Agree.

[RuQu]

Why is that OK, then?

Aren't there people who'll just keep on paying until they get every single one of those "super rare" items? Shouldn't they be protected?

Why is spending hundreds of dollars for one item acceptable and spending the same amount of money for random items not acceptable?

 

Because every one of those super-rare items could be purchased with credits. It might take a lot of farming, or buying on the CM to sell for credits in a cash for credit exchange, but it doesn't require trading real money for RNG.

[RuQu]

Well, why didn't you just say that you were kosher with Cartel Packs and just irritated at low drop rates? God, I could have just said

 

RNG IS RANDOM.

 

and been done with it.

 

And then you could have had this post and I would have realized that writing repeatedly to someone who has no reading comprehension skills was a waste of time.

 

Reread that post and try again.

[Benfynyn]

It's discussions like these that keep us from having pazaak in game. WTG funkillers.

 

 

[AlienEyeTX]

Because every one of those super-rare items could be purchased with credits. It might take a lot of farming, or buying on the CM to sell for credits in a cash for credit exchange, but it doesn't require trading real money for RNG.

 

You can buy the packs, which are guaranteed to have rep or certs (both required for rep vendor access), from the GTN without spending any real money. Just like those super-rares.

[RuQu]

So essentially you are denigrating people with real addiction problems because you aren't getting what you want? Nice.

 

Read the post above yours. I don't want anything from them.

 

The problem is that the current 1.7 packs are gambling because they are cash for an RNG chance of an item not obtainable through any other means.

 

This means a person (not me) who wants one of these items (cartel cert) has only the option of paying cash for the chance to get it. This then triggers a large number of the psychological mistakes that feed gambling such as the idea that a string of losses means a win is coming and that once they have invested X dollars into trying, those dollars would be wasted if they don't keep trying until they get something of value.

 

Make the cartel certs tradeable. Make the packs drop a token (100% chance) with an exchange rate. Either way, it ceases to be gambling.

[MelodyofLegends]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before... but what about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

 

Using me as an example...

 

I adore the cartel market and have admittedly gone a bit crazy, I have purchased a minimum of 2 of the 24 bulk packages. and a bunch of the 5 dollar cartel coins as well as many of the 20 dollar ones and a few of the 40 dollar packages..

 

I realize that my issue is in deed the emotional Rush I gain from the mere act of opening the packs... BUT I also realize that is a problem that I can work on. it is not a permanent issue.

 

I do not need a cap or a cyber nanny to sternly glare in my direction and say NO! I simply remind myself of the more tangible things money can buy. (food and clothing come to mind) and that is enough to keep myself from spending myself to bankruptcy!

[ikinai]

Read the post above yours. I don't want anything from them.

 

The problem is that the current 1.7 packs are gambling because they are cash for an RNG chance of an item not obtainable through any other means.

 

This means a person (not me) who wants one of these items (cartel cert) has only the option of paying cash for the chance to get it. This then triggers a large number of the psychological mistakes that feed gambling such as the idea that a string of losses means a win is coming and that once they have invested X dollars into trying, those dollars would be wasted if they don't keep trying until they get something of value.

 

Make the cartel certs tradeable. Make the packs drop a token (100% chance) with an exchange rate. Either way, it ceases to be gambling.

 

Actually, you can purchase them off the GTN from someone else without using your own money, so um, yeah, you are wrong.

[RuQu]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before... but what about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

 

Using me as an example...

 

I adore the cartel market and have admittedly gone a bit crazy, I have purchased a minimum of 2 of the 24 bulk packages. and a bunch of the 5 dollar cartel coins as well as many of the 20 dollar ones and a few of the 40 dollar packages..

 

I realize that my issue is in deed the emotional Rush I gain from the mere act of opening the packs... BUT I also realize that is a problem that I can work on. it is not a permanent issue.

 

I do not need a cap or a cyber nanny to sternly glare in my direction and say NO! I simply remind myself of the more tangible things money can buy. (food and clothing come to mind) and that is enough to keep myself from spending myself to bankruptcy!

 

"I have a problem, but I can stop any time I want." Sound familiar?

[TheNahash]

Because every one of those super-rare items could be purchased with credits. It might take a lot of farming, or buying on the CM to sell for credits in a cash for credit exchange, but it doesn't require trading real money for RNG.

 

But the cartel packs do not necessarily require real money from an individual player.

And in both cases someone would have to buy the cartel packs (so real money are never completely out of the picture no matter what you do) to begin the whole process of advancing your reputation and accumulating certificates.

 

As for the rest of your post, I still don't see how someone who spends $800 on Cartel Items to sell them and get the credits required to buy the packs from the GTN is not as in the exact same position as someone who blows $800 for RNG. They are both out $800. Seems pretty pointless to me.

[Andryah]

The problem is that the current 1.7 packs are gambling because they are cash for an RNG chance of an item not obtainable through any other means.

 

A) they are freely available in game via unopened cartel packs, purchased on the GTN with virtual in game money. Anyone wanting to play the RNG for certificates can get them without ever spending any real money [in the EXACT SAME WAY, every other CCM item can be obtained in game, including all prior cartel packs.... which you have self-admitted you are fine with].

 

B) I can see now, having read all of your posts in this thread that you really don't give a rats blow hole about gambling addiction. You are simply pontificating your desire that certificates be freely tradeable.

 

Please stop with the dishonesty.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Andryah

[RuQu]

But the cartel packs do not necessarily require real money from an individual player.

And in both cases someone would have to buy the cartel packs (so real money are never completely out of the picture no matter what you do) to begin the whole process of advancing your reputation and accumulating certificates.

 

As for the rest of your post, I still don't see how someone who spends $800 on Cartel Items to sell them and get the credits required to buy the packs from the GTN is not as in the exact same position as someone who blows $800 for RNG. They are both out $800. Seems pretty pointless to me.

 

Because the person who buys items specifically to sell on the GTN got what they wanted: credits. It's a dumb use of $800, but they thought it was worth it and that's their issue.

[AlienEyeTX]

Because the person who buys items specifically to sell on the GTN got what they wanted: credits. It's a dumb use of $800, but they thought it was worth it and that's their issue.

 

And the person who wants stuffs from the cartel vendors will either get rep or certs. What's the difference?