Selecting need for loot

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Do not claim that because some choose to give up their option to roll need, that those that choose to roll need for their companion are "gaming the system". No one is forcing those to choose to roll greed to do so.

 

You're right, let's just take the roll options out and have the game auto roll need every-time a loot piece drops

[BaronV]

If someone acquires a single piece of gear from an entire run, why do you care if it gets equipped to a companion instead of to a player character? It's not your loot, so why would you feel so strongly about how a player uses it?

 

Its not about how the person uses it - its about how the person OBTAINS it!!

 

When you click need for your comp - knowing full well that the social convention is need for your character only; then you are STEALING the item. You are denying your other group members a fair chance at gaining the item.

 

If you clicked need after asking "Can I take this item for my comp?' and people said "sure" then that is perfectly fine.

 

The point is when you click Need - You automatically deny everyone who clicked Greed the chance to get the item So if you click need when others thought you would chose greed (since you dont need that loot for your own char) you are denying them their fair chance getting the item.

 

The pro "need whenever i please" people keep trying to spin this as saying that people are telling them they have no right to the loot if they cant use it. that is completely false. They have a right to an equal chance to the loot. not a right to ninja-grab it.

[RLWalker]

No

 

 

Untrue. An item that's not an upgrade for anyone is not a need (since noone needs it) but a greed roll.

 

 

How about you greed loot that's not an upgrade for you so the person who can use it on their characters can need it and don't have to whisper you to "make their case"?

 

 

No. Greed = want.

 

What do you use the greed button for anyway? Decoration? Or do you have a "simple loot rule" like need on everything, greed on every tenth item?

 

 

 

No I lead a minimum of three ops groups every week, and often other groups as well e.g. Xeno. Unless for some reason wer'e deviating from the norm I do NOT discuss rules each time I am forming.

 

I have enough to do without catering to people who perhaps through taking up residence under rocks, somehow managed to reach 50, without finding out what's considered the norm.

 

 

Loot should never be set to FFA unless you're grouping with people you trust completely. FFA allows anyone in the group to loot everything.

Loot should be set to Round robin or master looter.

 

Forget about the names on the buttons. This is about a fair and efficient method of distributing loot in a PUG situation. If hitting need leads to less conflicts then it should be done, regardless of what reason you have for wanting the loot.

[Ratajack]

Then you also agree to the right (or option) of the players to kick him from the group and ban him from their groups because he cannot play nice with others. right?

 

So then what is the problem? No one says that the need button should be removed... He exercised his right (or option) to roll need and buck the social norm. And the community (his party) Promptly exercised their right (or option) to not have to play with someone who puts themselves over the community.

 

I guess I'm caught where you seem to be so adamant about the right to 'cheat' someone out of loot. but not adamant about the right to kick that person out of the group for their actions.

 

I guess you have a hard time understanding that the OP is not "cheating" anyone out of loot. The OP is not declaring that you cannot roll need since it is an upgrade for his companion. You CHOSE to roll need knowing that if anyone chose to roll need after you, their need roll would trump your greed roll. That does not mean that the OP "cheated" you. He chose to exercise his option to roll need and you chose not to exercise your option to roll need. You both had the same opportunity to roll need. No one tried to take your option to roll need away.

 

The group does have the option to attempt to vote kick a player. I have the option to vote no if I'm in a group that tries to vote kick someone for exercising their option to roll need, and I exercise that option by voting no every time. You have the option to add the offending player to your ignore list and no one will take that option away from you.

[ChrisMattar]

errr what do you do with the extra helixes then?

[Emencie]

Why are you fighting it so hard? No one is disagreeing with you and saying that it's an exploit. However, all of us arguing with you agree that it comes off as selfish or rude to do so and most people in here would tell the person to not do that or kick them if they didn't comply.

 

So what's the point here that you're making? I think we're on willing to concede that you have a right to it. But, just as in real life, "the right" doesn't make you "right". It means you're not getting banned from the game. That's all. But you're hurting your social standing in this game. That's it.

Im thinking its one of 2 things... He is bored at work and likes to argue (I can understand that)

 

Or. He's the type of person that knocks Ice Cream out of the hands of children, walks into churches and swears loudly, cuts off other drivers in traffic, Walks to the front of the line in a convenience store, Calls his coworkers names, Flips the bird to passing cops, and goes to depression meet up groups to tell people their lives are worthless. All because he can, has the right to, and isn't breaking any rules or laws.

 

I would Imagine if #2 he is also trying to justify his position on bucking societal norms for the sake of his pleasure rather than give an ounce of care to anyone else.

[shadowrouge]

Did the group take the time to establish ground rules BEFORE the run began? Is it not EVERYBODY'S responsibility to let the rest of the group know HOW they will be rolling?

 

Yes it is. So there for HE should have informed the group that he would be rolling on ANYTHING he could use for his companion. Lack of communication is the number one problem. You can't BLAME the other members of the group and NOT blame the OP. Defending his stance is one thing. Defending the OPs lack on no communicating is saying its ok to act as you will and not expect the rest of the group to not become upset.

 

He is at fault for not speaking up how he intends to roll. Its the groups fault for not explaining the loot rules it wished to use. So if your going to blame the group for NOT explaining the loot rules you have to blame the OP for not speaking up about how he rolls loots.

[cidbahamut]

Its not about how the person uses it - its about how the person OBTAINS it!!

 

Then why am I not allowed to obtain gear for a companion? What is so taboo about obtaining gear for a companion?

[hobbesmaster]

So quick question on etiquette since this appears to be the thread; why does everyone say to roll "greed" on stuff like speeders from ops bosses and rep tokens from strongs? Surely if you don't have something yet that you can use (speeder) or have reputation left for the week you "need" it and if you want to sell/alt (speeder) or stockpile (rep) you'd greed? I always ask in groups, esp for ops bosses (or say what to do if I organized) but some people think I'm weird for doing it that way.

 

Similar for crafting materials, though its usually master looter for that and distributed evenly at the end (statistically if everyone needed across all ops ever it would come out evenly but its a lot of credits so I understand the desire for a more consistent amount per week).

[RLWalker]

So quick question on etiquette since this appears to be the thread; why does everyone say to roll "greed" on stuff like speeders from ops bosses and rep tokens from strongs? Surely if you don't have something yet that you can use (speeder) or have reputation left for the week you "need" it and if you want to sell/alt (speeder) or stockpile (rep) you'd greed? I always ask in groups, esp for ops bosses (or say what to do if I organized) but some people think I'm weird for doing it that way.

 

Similar for crafting materials, though its usually master looter for that and distributed evenly at the end (statistically if everyone needed across all ops ever it would come out evenly but its a lot of credits so I understand the desire for a more consistent amount per week).

 

If you want something you should hit need. There is time to fix mistakes afterwards.

[Ratajack]

No argument here... WoW's group finder made it clear that jerks make jerks, make jerks, make jerks.

 

 

I disagree here. since everyone has said over and over again just say something and its fine. Adhere to the social norm and if you need to break it just say so and your reason. It's socially accepted to stand in line at the post office... but if a person with a need, needs to step in front of me and asks me then I, and most people will have no problem with that social norm being broken. that is what the people in this thread are saying. There is nothing wrong with rolling need for a companion. The problem is rolling need for a companion over another player with an air of entitlement that you and your needs are more important than anyone else.

 

I'm starting to agree with others here... you are just being contrary for no reason.

 

Using the "right" to click need is a right you seen to have the need to fight for even when the offender does not inform the group that this is their intent.

 

But using the "right" to kick someone makes a group a bunch of jerks to you. Even if that group tells the offender outright that this is the penalty for their actions.

 

I'm sorry, I should have clarified that. If the group establishes ground rules before the run, then when someone violates those ground rules they deserve to be kicked and I will vote to kick them. If the group does not establish ground rules before the run, assuming that "social convention" or some other loot rule system will be used, then I will vote no to any attempted vote kick against a player who rolls need for his companion.

[RLWalker]

Then why am I not allowed to obtain gear for a companion? What is so taboo about obtaining gear for a companion?

 

There is nothing wrong. I do not make a "hierarchy of neediness" to judge people with. Certainly if someone can use the gear I will defer to them.

[Emencie]

Then why am I not allowed to obtain gear for a companion? What is so taboo about obtaining gear for a companion?

you are completely able to obtain gear for your companion. People do it all the time and no one has a problem with it...

 

However,

a team consisting of IA,BH,SI,SW

The group as a whole adheres to the social norm rule of "greed if it isn't an upgrade for your character."

If a Strength item drops and the SW does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

If a Willpower item drops and the SI does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

If a cunning item drops and the IA does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

If an Aim item drops and the BH does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

This is established by the rule the party is adhering to.

 

So when the Strength item drops and the SW has no need for it Everyone rolls greed, but if the IA rolls need, and especially last. He knows without a doubt he will get that Item. Every single one of those classes has a strength based companion. and every single one of them may want that gear for their companion. but since the group rule said greed for companions, they did, and so were cheated out of that item by the one person who used a false pretense to get a 100% chance at loot. This pisses people off and kicks happen.

 

However if the Strength item drops and the SW has no need for it Everyone rolls greed, but the IA says "I really need that for my tank companion. Can I roll need?" There would be no problem at all.

 

It's not about what you use the gear for. It's about how you obtain the gear.

[Ratajack]

No one is forcing them, but they're doing it on an assumption for mutual benefit and group harmony in accordance with standard MMO rules of etiquette. There is no exploit that the player is making my rolling need on anything. It's not a ban-able offense. But it's a MMO/social taboo.

 

Why are you fighting it so hard? No one is disagreeing with you and saying that it's an exploit. However, all of us arguing with you agree that it comes off as selfish or rude to do so and most people in here would tell the person to not do that or kick them if they didn't comply.

 

So what's the point here that you're making? I think we're on willing to concede that you have a right to it. But, just as in real life, "the right" doesn't make you "right". It means you're not getting banned from the game. That's all. But you're hurting your social standing in this game. That's it.

 

I'm going to shock you here and agree that rolling need for a companion can be seen as selfish, which is why I choose to follow "social convention".

 

One of the areas we disagree is when it comes to denying a player the option to roll need for his companion if someone wants it for their character. To me it is every bit as selfish for a player to tell someone that they cannot have a chance to win that aim chest piece with defense because the vanguard DPS might want to tank, or that I cannot have a chance to win that cunning chest piece for risha because the gunslinger wants it.

 

You may not agree with me, but that is the way I see it. In both situations, one player is being given a higher chance to profit than another when all contributed. In the case of the player who bucks "social convention" his need roll trumps all the greed rolls of those players who choose to follow "social convention". In the case of the character before the companion, the character's need roll trumps the roll of the player who wants it for his companion as that player is only permitted to roll greed.

[ScarletBlaze]

Then why am I not allowed to obtain gear for a companion? What is so taboo about obtaining gear for a companion?

 

Your failure is failing to communicate what you were going to do in the group. You should have told the group upfront beforehand not after you did it.

[BaronV]

Then why am I not allowed to obtain gear for a companion? What is so taboo about obtaining gear for a companion?

 

How about you actually READ my entire post. and READ what everyone else here has been saying???

 

Nobody is saying that you cant get loot for your companion. What we are saying is that you should not choose NEED for your companion without first asking the permission of the rest of the group

 

Nobody is stopping you from selecting GREED on ANY ITEM EVER

Edited March 20, 2013 by BaronV

[Ratajack]

Its not about how the person uses it - its about how the person OBTAINS it!!

 

When you click need for your comp - knowing full well that the social convention is need for your character only; then you are STEALING the item. You are denying your other group members a fair chance at gaining the item.

 

If you clicked need after asking "Can I take this item for my comp?' and people said "sure" then that is perfectly fine.

 

The point is when you click Need - You automatically deny everyone who clicked Greed the chance to get the item So if you click need when others thought you would chose greed (since you dont need that loot for your own char) you are denying them their fair chance getting the item.

 

The pro "need whenever i please" people keep trying to spin this as saying that people are telling them they have no right to the loot if they cant use it. that is completely false. They have a right to an equal chance to the loot. not a right to ninja-grab it.

 

That is exactly what people are being told. A scoundrel healer and vanguard DPS are in a group. A defense chest piece with aim drops. The vanguard wants it and rolls need. Are you going to tell me that the group isn't going to tell the scoundrel he has no right to roll need since his CHARACTER uses cunning?

[BaronV]

One of the areas we disagree is when it comes to denying a player the option to roll need for his companion if someone wants it for their character. To me it is every bit as selfish for a player to tell someone that they cannot have a chance to win that aim chest piece with defense because the vanguard DPS might want to tank, or that I cannot have a chance to win that cunning chest piece for risha because the gunslinger wants it.

 

You may not agree with me, but that is the way I see it. In both situations, one player is being given a higher chance to profit than another when all contributed. In the case of the player who bucks "social convention" his need roll trumps all the greed rolls of those players who choose to follow "social convention". In the case of the character before the companion, the character's need roll trumps the roll of the player who wants it for his companion as that player is only permitted to roll greed.

 

okay... I always need credits. So everytime I group with you I will just select need on everything kay?

[Ratajack]

Yes it is. So there for HE should have informed the group that he would be rolling on ANYTHING he could use for his companion. Lack of communication is the number one problem. You can't BLAME the other members of the group and NOT blame the OP. Defending his stance is one thing. Defending the OPs lack on no communicating is saying its ok to act as you will and not expect the rest of the group to not become upset.

 

He is at fault for not speaking up how he intends to roll. Its the groups fault for not explaining the loot rules it wished to use. So if your going to blame the group for NOT explaining the loot rules you have to blame the OP for not speaking up about how he rolls loots.

 

I did not men to imply that the OP had no responsibility to try to set ground rules, or that the OP had no share of the blame. My only intent was to point out that the OP did not deserve the entire blame. Both sides need to shoulder their share of blame for the lack of communication. I have said the GROUP should establish rules before the run.

[cidbahamut]

Your failure is failing to communicate what you were going to do in the group. You should have told the group upfront beforehand not after you did it.

 

You are incorrect in your assumptions. I hope you feel foolish for making baseless accusations of the guy who hits "pass" on all the loot.

[BaronV]

That is exactly what people are being told. A scoundrel healer and vanguard DPS are in a group. A defense chest piece with aim drops. The vanguard wants it and rolls need. Are you going to tell me that the group isn't going to tell the scoundrel he has no right to roll need since his CHARACTER uses cunning?

 

an equal chance to the loot is selecting greed.

 

Selecting need invalidates the roll of everyone who selected greed - therefore selecting Need is NOT giving the others an equal chance to the loot.

 

Therefore NEED should only be used in a manner accepted by the entire group - which when is not stated is fair to assume that it is the social convention.

 

It is no different that queueing up at the checkout counter of your local supermarket. Why dont you just cut right into the front past the 80 year old lady?

 

You dont have to agree with it, but that is how the majority view this issue. That is the very definition of "social convention"

[Ratajack]

you are completely able to obtain gear for your companion. People do it all the time and no one has a problem with it...

 

However,

a team consisting of IA,BH,SI,SW

The group as a whole adheres to the social norm rule of "greed if it isn't an upgrade for your character."

If a Strength item drops and the SW does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

If a Willpower item drops and the SI does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

If a cunning item drops and the IA does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

If an Aim item drops and the BH does not need it for his character, Everyone will hit greed.

This is established by the rule the party is adhering to.

 

So when the Strength item drops and the SW has no need for it Everyone rolls greed, but if the IA rolls need, and especially last. He knows without a doubt he will get that Item. Every single one of those classes has a strength based companion. and every single one of them may want that gear for their companion. but since the group rule said greed for companions, they did, and so were cheated out of that item by the one person who used a false pretense to get a 100% chance at loot. This pisses people off and kicks happen.

 

However if the Strength item drops and the SW has no need for it Everyone rolls greed, but the IA says "I really need that for my tank companion. Can I roll need?" There would be no problem at all.

 

It's not about what you use the gear for. It's about how you obtain the gear.

 

Please clarify for me as to whether the the social norm of greed if it isn't an upgrade for your character was discussed and agreed upon before the start of the run, or if some members of the group simply assume that will be the rule.

[ScarletBlaze]

You are incorrect in your assumptions. I hope you feel foolish for making baseless accusations of the guy who hits "pass" on all the loot.

 

Passing on all the loot still doesn't negate the idea of having to talk to the group beforehand. There would not be any problems if the OP would have talked to the group beforehand and they agree. Failure to communicate to the group beforehand is the problem. If you don't take the time to talk to the group then expect the group to kick .

 

I rarely select greed or need but if I am going to select need for a companion I will talk to the group beforehand, which is something the OP didn't do and then wants to complain they were upset about it. Of course they are going to be upset if you don't speak to them beforehand.

Edited March 20, 2013 by ScarletBlaze

[Lostpenguins]

Then why am I not allowed to obtain gear for a companion? What is so taboo about obtaining gear for a companion?

It's already been explained why it's a social taboo. Social taboos exists because the majority find it taboo within the context that the community exists in. There's no way you're going to convince the majority.

 

However, now that you know what the majority feel, you just need to accept that you will either follow in suit or not follow and get ostracized. And if you choose to not follow suit because you feel you're making a statement against some general rule of thumb that you feel is bad, feel free too. And you'll continue to get kicked from groups and BW (and any other company that hosts an MMO that you go to) will continue to shrug their shoulders at you.

 

So, are you done now?

[BaronV]

You are incorrect in your assumptions. I hope you feel foolish for making baseless accusations of the guy who hits "pass" on all the loot.

 

ROFL just what are you on about?? PASS means "I dont want this item"

 

just jumping in on page 46 and randomly spout rubbish.. sounds to me like you just trying to be a conflict instigator

Edited March 20, 2013 by BaronV