More 'Pay for Reputation' incoming...

[vian]

While I don't have a problem with this new system, after all, it really only is a reward for those who already buy packs, this announcement just removed any temptation there ever would have been to grind rep.

 

Just too much of a hassle

 

QFT. A hassle and far more discretionary income than I'm willing to spend; more power to those who do, of course.

[DarkDisturbed]

One cartel reputation track is fine, I'm okay with that, but one for every shipment??!? Hell no. That's ridiculous..

[CelCawdro]

QFT. A hassle and far more discretionary income than I'm willing to spend; more power to those who do, of course.

 

I think the worst part is that people that spend responsibly aren't going to be the ones buying into schemes like these, even on a less-than-modest income. It will be the people that simply have a compulsion to get those "unique" items, whether they can afford them or not.

[jedimessiah]

One: It's EA and JH running the show. Don't expect anything resembling class.

 

Two: This isn't really an MMO any longer. It's digital-Barbie for Star Wars fans with time on their hands and (maybe) some money to spare.

 

QFT I was thinking the exact same thing earlier.

[vian]

While I certainly don't begrudge them for trying to make more money the Cartel Market is really starting to grate on me as it really does become more of a pay to win system. "Nickel and Dime"ing is one thing but this feels like they are simply trying to fleece the customers that were buying packs according to the metrics. I am very concerned that the release of the expansion will be bringing an even larger wave of disgust as people realize that they have been virtually robbed, willingly no less.

 

"Pay to Win" doesn't mean "Pay to have sith-and-glitter that other people don't have." Pay to Win means "I will buy something that gives me a material advantage over other players and unbalances the game in my favour."

 

So, how are these CC rep lucky dips P2W, in any way?

Edited March 13, 2013 by vian

[Vandicus]

I bought a Hyper rate plus a few more yesterday and am mist of the way through Champion. I don't think its going to be as prohibative as a lot of people are making it out to be though. Maybe I just real lucky with it but it seemed as though the majority of the rep tokens that dropped were the mid level token. As a sub those come out as 630 per. I had a fair amount of the 1440 ones as well.

 

Now if people were buying them specifically for rep or rep was the only thing you got then yeah I'd say that's crazy. But you get a lot of items you can use and stand out from the rest or sell them on the GTN for a nice in game nest egg. The Rep system is not necessary despite the fact that many people seem to either react as if they are being forced to partake in it or they act as if the items are required to be competitive or it gives some unfair advantage. The " The sky is falling" reaction of a lot of people is overly melodramatic.

 

I take issue with the implementation of more rep bars on a regular basis. Its clear that its no longer a loyalty rewards program in that case(as previous purchases count for nothing with vendors going for) but simply an additive to the rewards for purchases. By distinguishing rep vendors from one another with various rep bars, they make it clear that most of what each rep bar will provide is what their respective vendors launch with(I can go in to further detail as to why this is the case if necessary). Furthermore, its designed to exploit addictive tendencies in gamers. If they simply wished to gate one's ability to purchase from these vendors, the certificates can already do that. By adding more rep bars on a regular basis, players who have tendencies towards addiction from Skinner box type models are being specifically targeted. Its one thing to have a system that people might get addicted to, its another thing entirely to design a system to target those people in particular as customers. Lastly, they have attempted to represent this as feasible with GTN operations. With this announcement, this becomes only technically true. With the size of the first announced rep bar, it was possible to achieve full rep through an extensive, though not impossible grind in game. Assume conservatively that it takes 90 packs for max rep, and packs sell for 250k per, and you arrive at 22.5 million credits. Stating that this can be done every 4-6 months is not realistic for an overwhelming majority of the player base.

 

So in the first, the way in which this is marketed is dishonest. In the second, they are particularly trying to sell to gamers who have addictive tedencies, rather than attempting to provide value for value. Lastly, the previous statement and later continued representation that we can do this grind simply through GTN purchases is misleading.

 

I'm not outraged about the product changes, since they have no bearing on my experience as a subscriber who does not purchase packs, but I find the duplicitousness and attempt to exploit addictive tendencies distasteful.

[Hyfy]

I take issue with the implementation of more rep bars on a regular basis. Its clear that its no longer a loyalty rewards program in that case(as previous purchases count for nothing with vendors going for) but simply an additive to the rewards for purchases. By distinguishing rep vendors from one another with various rep bars, they make it clear that most of what each rep bar will provide is what their respective vendors launch with(I can go in to further detail as to why this is the case if necessary). Furthermore, its designed to exploit addictive tendencies in gamers. If they simply wished to gate one's ability to purchase from these vendors, the certificates can already do that. By adding more rep bars on a regular basis, players who have tendencies towards addiction from Skinner box type models are being specifically targeted. Its one thing to have a system that people might get addicted to, its another thing entirely to design a system to target those people in particular as customers. Lastly, they have attempted to represent this as feasible with GTN operations. With this announcement, this becomes only technically true. With the size of the first announced rep bar, it was possible to achieve full rep through an extensive, though not impossible grind in game. Assume conservatively that it takes 90 packs for max rep, and packs sell for 250k per, and you arrive at 22.5 million credits. Stating that this can be done every 4-6 months is not realistic for an overwhelming majority of the player base.

 

So in the first, the way in which this is marketed is dishonest. In the second, they are particularly trying to sell to gamers who have addictive tedencies, rather than attempting to provide value for value. Lastly, the previous statement and later continued representation that we can do this grind simply through GTN purchases is misleading.

 

I'm not outraged about the product changes, since they have no bearing on my experience as a subscriber who does not purchase packs, but I find the duplicitousness and attempt to exploit addictive tendencies distasteful.

 

 

TL;DR: Bioware and EA are the evil rich because the are marketing a product that people want to buy.

 

They aren't lying about what's being offered, its pretty much all up front and you are able to partake or not. Just because some people will indulge to excess that apparently means, using your own reasoning here, that they are not allowed to make money.

[Gidien]

"Pay to Win" doesn't mean "Pay to have *****-and-glitter that other people don't have." Pay to Win means "I will buy something that gives me a material advantage over other players and unbalances the game in my favour."

 

So, how are these CC rep lucky dips P2W, in any way?

 

So the purchase of ship parts is not out right pay to win? The topic has been discussed and the road to pay to win paved, you need only step on to the path.

[Solzean]

Is a shipment a set of 4 packs? Or are we talking a new vendor for every new pack?

[Vandicus]

TL;DR: Bioware and EA are the evil rich because the are marketing a product that people want to buy.

 

They aren't lying about what's being offered, its pretty much all up front and you are able to partake or not. Just because some people will indulge to excess that apparently means, using your own reasoning here, that they are not allowed to make money.

 

I'm hardly one to lambast the "evil" rich. They are my compatriots.

 

Its not a loyalty rewards program. To be a loyalty rewards program it would have to be based on rewarding loyal(past) behavior. By introducing new vendors with their own rep gates, they are only targeting future sales, and demonstrate that they do not intend to continuously update the rewards that were offered to loyal(past) customers. While the vendors add value to packs, this is not a loyalty rewards program.

 

Rep bars are a form of skinner box. It is plausible to say that a single rep bar is merely being used to track past purchases, but multiple rep bars are unnecessary as a gating system when they already can use certificates or token based gating, meaning they are specifically targeting people who feel compelled to gain rep(people who are addicted to the skinner box).

 

Again, there's a difference between building a system that people may become addicted to, and building a system designed to addict people to it.

[mothear]

"Pay to Win" doesn't mean "Pay to have *****-and-glitter that other people don't have." Pay to Win means "I will buy something that gives me a material advantage over other players and unbalances the game in my favour."

 

So, how are these CC rep lucky dips P2W, in any way?

 

So by your definition if BiS gear is sold as BoE gear on the cartel market it isn't pay to win, or more likely, if they put in a way that you can grind cartel coins (a rare drop for example) nothing is pay to win because you can technically grind to buy it?

[CelCawdro]

TL;DR: Bioware and EA are the evil rich because the are marketing a product that people want to buy.

 

They aren't lying about what's being offered, its pretty much all up front and you are able to partake or not. Just because some people will indulge to excess that apparently means, using your own reasoning here, that they are not allowed to make money.

 

People that want or are compelled to spend to excess are able to. They shouldn't be coerced to, nor should they have content developed particularly for them. Let them spend outrageously if they want to. It's taking content away from the general populace that either spends moderately or not at all.

Edited March 13, 2013 by CelCawdro

[CelCawdro]

So by your definition if BiS gear is sold as BoE gear on the cartel market it isn't pay to win, or more likely, if they put in a way that you can grind cartel coins (a rare drop for example) nothing is pay to win because you can technically grind to buy it?

 

Since when has BiS gear graced the Cartel Market?

[Master-Nala]

While I'm generally a supporter of the Cartel Market reputation system, I would not be able to support this. I generally like any system that acts as a "loyalty reward," but this kind of thing completely voids that concept. And that concept was the entire premise of my defense.

 

Agreed. I am willing to defend the general concept of a rewards system, but the additional fact of having a separate reward track for each pack shipment goes too far.

[chuixupu]

People that want or are compelled to spend to excess are able to. They shouldn't be coerced to, nor should they have content developed particularly for them. Let them spend outrageously if they want to. It's taking content away from the general populace that either spends moderately or not at all.

 

Agreed. I am willing to defend the general concept of a rewards system, but the additional fact of having a separate reward track for each pack shipment goes too far.

 

Agreed. I think they can find a compromise to this. Clearly this has not been a popular decision. I know forum people aren't the majority, but the I don't think there was even this much anger for the ship parts thing.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Yeah. Getting legendary status with this faction is extremely excessive as it is. In my opinion they should be adding new items to the current vendor upon each shipment.

[vian]

Since when has BiS gear graced the Cartel Market?

 

That'd be ... um ... never.

 

I suppose, if you were in a generous mood, you could argue that the level 7 ship upgrades are BiS, but they don't have any effect on how you interact with other players, so I still can't see how they'd be classed as P2W.

[Hyfy]

I'm hardly one to lambast the "evil" rich. They are my compatriots.

 

Its not a loyalty rewards program. To be a loyalty rewards program it would have to be based on rewarding loyal(past) behavior. By introducing new vendors with their own rep gates, they are only targeting future sales, and demonstrate that they do not intend to continuously update the rewards that were offered to loyal(past) customers. While the vendors add value to packs, this is not a loyalty rewards program.

 

Rep bars are a form of skinner box. It is plausible to say that a single rep bar is merely being used to track past purchases, but multiple rep bars are unnecessary as a gating system when they already can use certificates or token based gating, meaning they are specifically targeting people who feel compelled to gain rep(people who are addicted to the skinner box).

 

Again, there's a difference between building a system that people may become addicted to, and building a system designed to addict people to it.

 

 

So adding a little something extra for the people who decided to buy some packs doesn't count as a form of "loyalty reward"? I suppose we may have a different idea.of what that phrase constitutes so by all means elaborate so we may get on the same page.

[vian]

So by your definition if BiS gear is sold as BoE gear on the cartel market it isn't pay to win, or more likely, if they put in a way that you can grind cartel coins (a rare drop for example) nothing is pay to win because you can technically grind to buy it?

 

No. Read what I wrote.

 

P2W means that you can lay out real money to get an advantage over other players. If BiS gear, (BoE, BoP or BoL) were sold on the Cartel Market that would be Pay to Win. And it would suck hard vacuum.

 

But it isn't.

 

The stuff on the Cartel Market is not stuff that will give you an advantage over other players in the game. It's Pay to Look Pretty. P2LP, if you will. Not P2W.

[Vandicus]

So adding a little something extra for the people who decided to buy some packs doesn't count as a form of "loyalty reward"? I suppose we may have a different idea.of what that phrase constitutes so by all means elaborate so we may get on the same page.

 

Its quite clear in what I wrote. They are providing additional value to buyers of packs moving forward, and on a continually moving forward only basis. In essence, there will cease to be forward benefits to the rep earned from shipment 2 when shipment 3 releases. This constitutes adding value to a product, not a loyalty rewards program(which requires rewards for past behavior). That a player bought say, $500 in packs during shipments 2&3, won't matter at all for the rewards released alongside shipment 4.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Vandicus

[SithEmpress]

I could accept one cartel reputation vendor because I could slow earn my way up even if I don’t like it. Now with this new information I take it back. This is not a reward system in any form, it a cheap money grab scheme. This system punishes the player for not spending enough money in a set duration of time. I know they say they have two development teams but it doesn’t feel like we’re getting much in game for our subs.

 

Look at the in game reputation vendor we didn’t even get new outfits instead we got poorly recolored outfits that don't even stand out from the original. Yet the cartel reputation vendor gets all sort of new things. It sure does feel like everything new and cool is going into the cartel market. Maybe Makeb will have all new outfit, vehicles, and etc that we can actual earn in game. At least I hope well get some nice things.

Edited March 13, 2013 by SithEmpress

[vian]

So the purchase of ship parts is not out right pay to win? The topic has been discussed and the road to pay to win paved, you need only step on to the path.

 

How do they give you an advantage over other players? It's not like there are leader boards or anything. It's not like there aren't a grillion other ways to earn comms.

[Jamus_Divinus]

Look at the in game reputation vendor we didn’t even get new outfits instead we got poorly recolored outfits that don't even stand out from the original. Yet the cartel reputation vendor gets all sort of new things. It sure does feel like everything new and cool is going into the cartel market. Maybe Makeb will have all new outfit, vehicles, and etc that we can actual earn in game. At least I hope well get some nice things.

 

Very good point. The Reputation vendors without Cartel packs offer rewards only for 3 of the 6 ranks (usually Friend, Hero and Legend). The Cartel reputation vendor offers goodies at every one of the 6 ranks. They were blooming quick in fleshing those vendors out while the 'ingame' rep vendors seem very bare in comparison.

[Gidien]

No. Read what I wrote.

 

P2W means that you can lay out real money to get an advantage over other players. If BiS gear, (BoE, BoP or BoL) were sold on the Cartel Market that would be Pay to Win. And it would suck hard vacuum.

 

But it isn't.

 

The stuff on the Cartel Market is not stuff that will give you an advantage over other players in the game. It's Pay to Look Pretty. P2LP, if you will. Not P2W.

 

You forget however, that people are willing to buy much of the "Look Pretty" stuff on the GTN which then translate into in game money which can be used to craft or purchase BiS equipment.

[vian]

You forget however, that people are willing to buy much of the "Look Pretty" stuff on the GTN which then translate into in game money which can be used to craft or purchase BiS equipment.

 

Yes, and I can farm mats for a few hours a day and get credits to buy BiS equipment. And you can run dailies and get comms to get BiS euqipment. And someone else can max out their WZ weeklies and get war comms to buy BiS equipment. And any subscriber can convert their complimentary CCs to lucky dip boxes and sell them to get credits to buy BiS equipment. But I can't buy BiS equipment with real money, or Cartel Coins. That's an important distinction. Especially since in reality, you need comms or crystals or unassembled bits of armour to convert into BiS gear, and -- and this is key -- you Can't. Get. Them. For. Money. You have to get them by playing.

 

By your definition, any system which allows you to sell cartel items in-game is automatically P2W. By mine, and by most people's, it isn't.