Luke (post-GrandMaster) vs Revan (post-KotOR)

[ZahirS]

Revan can't go toe-to-toe with Luke of return of jedi, only scenario I see revan winning is before that.

 

Luke>Revan

just as

Luke>Vader

 

Just for fun some feats of Revan:

 

• Defeated Mandalore Ultimate in Single Combat
  
• Used Lightside and Darkside abilties on the fly
  
• Defeated countless Mercenaries send by Malak
  
• Defeated all most prominent Sith Lords
  
• Defeatd Darth Malak
  

 

Force Powers

1. Force Valor and Strengh
   
2. Force Stasis
   
3. Force speed
   
4. Force Telekinesis
   
5. Dual and Single Lightsaber profiency
   
6. Force Drain, Force Lighting
   
7. Force Shield
   
8. Force power wave( Both Lightside and Darkside)
   
9. Force Choke/Push
   

[MyDarkSunshine]

Lets just look at training day telekenetics Revan in the middle of a air conditioned temple sitting levitates 3 medium size objects start of KotoR

 

Luke start of training on Dagobah (same stage of development) lifting same number of similar size items while doing a hand stand on one hand with a midget on his foot stacking said items not just floating them in the middle of a humid swamp where the ground is muddy and unstable and to top it off begins using farsight.

 

The difference between Luke on dagobah and Luke at the end of RotJ is about the same as Revan start of KotoR to Revan post KotOR

 

Depends how "post KotOR" we're talking. I agree that RotJ Luke is a good match and would very likely beat Revan at the end of KotOR, however the difference becomes larger as we enter into the Revan novel. When Revan takes up his mask again he gains an instant level in bad ***, and with it comes the return of knowledge that several months of training simply wasn't enough to fully reinstall. At this point Luke is probably still the better lightsaber duelist, with his strong, natural affinity for Djem So, however Revan's knowledge of the Force eclipses that of a still fairly young Luke; whilst the latter has more power and more potential, not to mention direct tutoring from a very old and very wise master in the form of Yoda, Revan had spent years learning from the masters of his orders and then delved into dark secrets during and after his fall. Naturally Grandmaster Luke wins on this front too, but that match up has been quite soundly concluded.

 

Regardless of whether or not Revan has reclaimed his mask and the full extent of his knowledge, the question would be whether or not Luke's superior skills with the lightsaber and potent, instinctual usage of the Force would be enough to go up against a versatile and tactically astute, albeit arrogant enemy like Revan. In my opinion said arrogance* would likely be the down fall of Revan here, as it has been so many times before.

 

* This is Revan's biggest flaw and a clearly defined character trait; he believed himself capable of handling the side effects of war, of mastering and not being mastered by the darkside, of sacrificing himself fully to the darkside without falling, of defeating any attempted coup Darth Malak might make and assuming it would come in the form of personal combat, of being able to single handedly defeat the darkness lurking in the unknown regions (potentially let off, he didn't fully comprehend the threat when he left) and of deflecting the full power of Vitiate's intense dark side energy. Each and every one of those he failed, although his arrogance also drove him to success on a few, more limited occasions; like going against the Mandalore in single combat.

Edited May 1, 2013 by MyDarkSunshine

[tunewalker]

Depends how "post KotOR" we're talking. I agree that RotJ Luke is a good match and would very likely beat Revan at the end of KotOR, however the difference becomes larger as we enter into the Revan novel. When Revan takes up his mask again he gains an instant level in bad ***, and with it comes the return of knowledge several months of training simply wasn't enough to fully reinstall. At this point Luke is probably still the better lightsaber duelist, with his strong, natural affinity for Djem So, however Revan's knowledge of the Force eclipses that of a still fairly young Luke; whilst the latter has more power and more potential, not to mention direct tutoring from a very old and very wise master in the form of Yoda, Revan had spent years learning from the masters of his orders and then delved into dark secrets during and after his fall. Naturally Grandmaster Luke wins on this front too, but that match up has been quite soundly concluded.

 

Regardless of whether or not Revan has reclaimed his mask and the full extent of his knowledge, the question would be whether or not Luke's superior skills with the lightsaber and potent, instinctual usage of the Force would be enough to go up against a versatile and tactically astute, albeit arrogant enemy like Revan. In my opinion said arrogance* would likely be the down fall of Revan here, as it has been so many times before.

 

* This is Revan's biggest flaw and a clearly defined character trait; he believed himself capable of handling the side effects of war, of mastering and not being mastered by the darkside, of sacrificing himself fully to the darkside without falling, of defeating any attempted coup Darth Malak might make and assuming it would come in the form of personal combat, of being able to single handedly defeat the darkness lurking in the unknown regions (potentially let off, he didn't fully comprehend the threat when he left) and of deflecting the full power of Vitiate's intense dark side energy. Each and every one of those he failed, although his arrogance also drove him to success on a few, more limited occasions; like going against the Mandalore in single combat.

 

This actually sounds like a proper analysis of the character and his abilities. I would actually still argue RotJ Luke would win simplyon the fact that he is very quick with instictual defenses and has great amount of force resistance. While revan can use force lightning and other telekenetic powers Luke can counter my blocking lightning with his saber and has shown (as far as I can see) to be about revan's equal with incombat telekenetics as Luke's only weakness with telekentics is he believes it impossible to lift something larger than a large human, other than that he has been shown able to do so without his hands and without even paying full attention to the thing if need be. So it would come down to a saber fight ultimately as some of revan's better attacks such as Force drain simply wouldnt make it through Luke's natural force resistance.

[MyDarkSunshine]

This actually sounds like a proper analysis of the character and his abilities. I would actually still argue RotJ Luke would win simplyon the fact that he is very quick with instictual defenses and has great amount of force resistance. While revan can use force lightning and other telekenetic powers Luke can counter my blocking lightning with his saber and has shown (as far as I can see) to be about revan's equal with incombat telekenetics as Luke's only weakness with telekentics is he believes it impossible to lift something larger than a large human, other than that he has been shown able to do so without his hands and without even paying full attention to the thing if need be. So it would come down to a saber fight ultimately as some of revan's better attacks such as Force drain simply wouldnt make it through Luke's natural force resistance.

 

Seems we're in agreement.

 

Not entirely sure on how someone's natural Force resistance works in universe, as a game mechanic it was an activated ability with a duration. From what I gather it prevents them being picked up and thrown about like a rag doll, but not being knocked around by indirect Force attacks such as waves, pushes, lightning etc. Force drain clearly can be used on a Force sensitive (KotOR II), however we have little reason to believe Revan was particularly impressive with said power. Luke has shown large amounts of fortitude when hit with Force lightning before, and whilst I doubt Sidious was utilizing his full power at the time (he seemed to be intentionally prolonging it) Revan's lightning is again, nothing particularly impressive and Luke will be unlikely to simply discard his saber.

 

The true difficulty in gauging Revan's powers is that the majority falls under 'game mechanics'. We know roughly what Revan is capable of, but not the extent to which he can do so. He was capable of throwing around large asteroids telekentically, but that requires such objects be present. He is capable of utilizing a wide array of powers, but whether or not that is in a basic manner (first tier moves, KotOR) or massive AoE (third tier) is unknown and not really shown in the novel.

 

Something else worth adding is that whilst Revan would likely lose in a saber duel with Luke, he is no push over. He is credited as being the most skilled swordsman during his life time, and whilst there were a limited range of credible competition for the title it still fell on Revan. He was also credited as having incredible precognition by the Echani, which only enhances his already formidable combat skills. Luke is capable of deflecting blaster bolts which suggests Jedi-like reflexes and precognitive power, even going as far as to do so blind by allowing the Force to guide him, however it is never suggested to be more than usual for a Jedi of his caliber.

 

Unfortunately we know little about Revan's light saber form, but I have a strong inclination he utilized Ataru or a variant thereof; based on the fact it was a common form of the time, and that his style was acrobatic (power attack, also described as such in the novel) and prone to quick flurries (flurry). Despite such a form being physically demanding, Revan was capable of engaging in a prolonged assault through the defense of the star forge suggesting some mastery, given it would require some compensation for the limitations of the form- he was neither tired out from the long fight or shown to have any particular difficulty handling multiple blaster wielding opponents. This is of course speculation. What we do know is that Luke was naturally gifted in Djem So even at this early stage, mirroring and breaking his Father's style, despite the latter utilizing a mix of Djem So, Soresu and Makeshi.

 

The two would be fairly evenly matched, as Revan would be unlikely to break the less experienced Jedi with varied displays of Force power or be given sufficient opportunity to redirect Luke's own powers back on him. In light saber combat the two are both skilled, but Luke likely has the advantage. If Revan were cautious enough to use his Force powers to hamper and harass Luke, crippling the already limited mobility of Djem So and then capitalizing on his own form's quick and acrobatic movements, Revan could win. However his arrogance is likely to drive him to attempt victory first through combat. An acrobatic form leaves plenty of room for mistake or over reaching, something a competent Djem So user would be able to take advantage of, counter and thus gain control of the engagement. Luke need only maintain a strong enough defense to weather the initial assault and the fight would likely swing in his favour at some point. Ataru's limited defense would then prove a huge hindrance and whilst he could attempt to dance back and create space, Luke is more than capable of pressing an assault home (as displayed shortly before cutting of Vader's hand).

[tunewalker]

Seems we're in agreement.

 

Not entirely sure on how someone's natural Force resistance works in universe, as a game mechanic it was an activated ability with a duration. From what I gather it prevents them being picked up and thrown about like a rag doll, but not being knocked around by indirect Force attacks such as waves, pushes, lightning etc. Force drain clearly can be used on a Force sensitive (KotOR II), however we have little reason to believe Revan was particularly impressive with said power. Luke has shown large amounts of fortitude when hit with Force lightning before, and whilst I doubt Sidious was utilizing his full power at the time (he seemed to be intentionally prolonging it) Revan's lightning is again, nothing particularly impressive and Luke will be unlikely to simply discard his saber.

 

The true difficulty in gauging Revan's powers is that the majority falls under 'game mechanics'. We know roughly what Revan is capable of, but not the extent to which he can do so. He was capable of throwing around large asteroids telekentically, but that requires such objects be present. He is capable of utilizing a wide array of powers, but whether or not that is in a basic manner (first tier moves, KotOR) or massive AoE (third tier) is unknown and not really shown in the novel.

 

Something else worth adding is that whilst Revan would likely lose in a saber duel with Luke, he is no push over. He is credited as being the most skilled swordsman during his life time, and whilst there were a limited range of credible competition for the title it still fell on Revan. He was also credited as having incredible precognition by the Echani, which only enhances his already formidable combat skills. Luke is capable of deflecting blaster bolts which suggests Jedi-like reflexes and precognitive power, even going as far as to do so blind by allowing the Force to guide him, however it is never suggested to be more than usual for a Jedi of his caliber.

 

Unfortunately we know little about Revan's light saber form, but I have a strong inclination he utilized Ataru or a variant thereof; based on the fact it was a common form of the time, and that his style was acrobatic (power attack, also described as such in the novel) and prone to quick flurries (flurry). Despite such a form being physically demanding, Revan was capable of engaging in a prolonged assault through the defense of the star forge suggesting some mastery, given it would require some compensation for the limitations of the form- he was neither tired out from the long fight or shown to have any particular difficulty handling multiple blaster wielding opponents. This is of course speculation. What we do know is that Luke was naturally gifted in Djem So even at this early stage, mirroring and breaking his Father's style, despite the latter utilizing a mix of Djem So, Soresu and Makeshi.

 

The two would be fairly evenly matched, as Revan would be unlikely to break the less experienced Jedi with varied displays of Force power or be given sufficient opportunity to redirect Luke's own powers back on him. In light saber combat the two are both skilled, but Luke likely has the advantage. If Revan were cautious enough to use his Force powers to hamper and harass Luke, crippling the already limited mobility of Djem So and then capitalizing on his own form's quick and acrobatic movements, Revan could win. However his arrogance is likely to drive him to attempt victory first through combat. An acrobatic form leaves plenty of room for mistake or over reaching, something a competent Djem So user would be able to take advantage of, counter and thus gain control of the engagement. Luke need only maintain a strong enough defense to weather the initial assault and the fight would likely swing in his favour at some point. Ataru's limited defense would then prove a huge hindrance and whilst he could attempt to dance back and create space, Luke is more than capable of pressing an assault home (as displayed shortly before cutting of Vader's hand).

 

Again a fairly good analysis but I am not so certain of Revan's skill with a blade while it was good for its time we have to remeber what his time meant Kreia described people from that era as children playing with stick in comparison to the old masters and we know that the prequel era jedi were just as good if not better then the old masters and Luke was just as good if not better then the prequel masters so best for his time when he is fighting what amounts to children with sticks according to kreia doesnt leave me to sure of his abilities. But ya any force attack that affects the body with out the users consent can be resisted depending on some ones natural force resist or active force resist (pushes and waves often need some sort of active physical/force defense to defend against but its possible to push through these) force drain is one that unlike waves does have to go for the physical body specifically thus it would fall to Luke Natural force resist which is rediculously high (think in game mechanics I think willpower and fortitude). That being said Luke's Djem So doesnt quite have the mobility issues that a natural Djem So has. It was a reflections of vader's and Vader's Djem So had many elements from other forms brought into it including more mobility of ataru and footwork of makashi to eliminate the one weakness the form had. Not to mention the shear physical power of one of Luke's Falling avalanches would be incredible as he toppled a force powered cyborg with it.

Edited May 1, 2013 by tunewalker

[FuryoftheStars]

And this: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

Right in A New Hope we get a guage of the power of the Force. What we see Luke and Palpatine do is insignificant.

 

My only issue with this line: if the Force really was that powerful, and Palpatine (as stated by GL) was one of the strongest Force users ever, why in the tar would he build... not one, but two!... planet destroying super-weapons? Wouldn't it be easier (and perhaps more personally satisfying for him) if he just sat on the bridge of a Star Destroyer and reached out with his own Force ability to squeeze the stuffings out of the planet?

 

I think Vader was hinting at something else, not just raw destructive power. I'd really love to hear a statement from GL as to what he feels as though Palpatine's (or anyone's, really) limits were in the Force.

[LadyKulvax]

My only issue with this line: if the Force really was that powerful, and Palpatine (as stated by GL) was one of the strongest Force users ever, why in the tar would he build... not one, but two!... planet destroying super-weapons? Wouldn't it be easier (and perhaps more personally satisfying for him) if he just sat on the bridge of a Star Destroyer and reached out with his own Force ability to squeeze the stuffings out of the planet?

 

I think Vader was hinting at something else, not just raw destructive power. I'd really love to hear a statement from GL as to what he feels as though Palpatine's (or anyone's, really) limits were in the Force.

 

He built the death stars as symbols of power and fear, he says so himself.

[FuryoftheStars]

He built the death stars as symbols of power and fear, he says so himself.

 

And the mere sight of him knowing what he's capable of wouldn't be... why?

 

I'm just saying... if the Force really is that powerful (or rather, a Force wielder is), then the train of thought behind that one-purpose weapon is severely flawed.

[Wolfninjajedi]

And the mere sight of him knowing what he's capable of wouldn't be... why?

 

I'm just saying... if the Force really is that powerful (or rather, a Force wielder is), then the train of thought behind that one-purpose weapon is severely flawed.

 

What would you believe more, a frail old man having immense power? Or a battle station, that actually shows in its schematics that it has the capacity to destroy an entire planet? Remember during that time, not everyone believed in The Force and just thought it was a bunch of parlor tricks all smoke and mirrors.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[ZahirS]

He built the death stars as symbols of power and fear, he says so himself.

 

Even then can you tell its flawed thinking?

 

If Sideous is the Greatest Sith Lord of all time, can summon wormholes, force storms that anihilate planets and so on like said about him, why does he need a planet destruction machine?

 

The force is more powerful than a battlestation because it controls the fate of individuals, groups and galaxy, the force can even destroy a deathstar...its obvious

[FuryoftheStars]

What would you believe more, a frail old man having immense power? Or a battle station, that actually shows in its schematics that it has the capacity to destroy an entire planet? Remember during that time, not everyone believed in The Force and just thought it was a bunch of parlor tricks all smoke and mirrors.

 

What I would believe is a person corrupt with evil powers would use it willy-nilly how he pleased and wouldn't give two bits about rebellions because (with that level of power) he could just swat the fleets out of existence. I would believe in him flexing his own power muscles, not having someone else do it in his stead.

 

Or, more accurately, I believe that a Force wielder's power in the Force isn't actually that powerful (where raw destructive power is concerned) and as such still needs these constructs to provoke fear and intimidation in the populace because he really wouldn't be able to just cast an enemy fleet away with the wave of a hand. Because really, someone with that much power, could've just wiped the Jedi out of existence with ease and wouldn't need the elaborate ruse to be able to assassinate them all. He could've bent people's minds and wills to serve him without going through the risky operation of a multi-decade facade of befriending them and hoping that they'd willingly make him their Emperor. Yes, we know he was overconfident... but that just makes him more likely to use his powers than not.

[GarfieldJL]

Even then can you tell its flawed thinking?

 

If Sideous is the Greatest Sith Lord of all time, can summon wormholes, force storms that anihilate planets and so on like said about him, why does he need a planet destruction machine?

 

The force is more powerful than a battlestation because it controls the fate of individuals, groups and galaxy, the force can even destroy a deathstar...its obvious

 

I suspect that wielding his power in such a manner carried with it a heavy price, one that Palpatine didn't want to pay if he didn't have to.

[FuryoftheStars]

I suspect that wielding his power in such a manner carried with it a heavy price, one that Palpatine didn't want to pay if he didn't have to.

 

And yet he

summon wormholes, force storms that anihilate planets and so on

?

Edited May 2, 2013 by FuryoftheStars

[Aurbere]

And yet he

 

?

 

At the cost of his body. Everytime Sidious used one of his Force Storms, his body suffered. And that was in his younger clone bodies. His old frail self probably couldn't handle it.

[ZahirS]

I suspect that wielding his power in such a manner carried with it a heavy price, one that Palpatine didn't want to pay if he didn't have to.

 

Garfield does bring a good point, maybe Palpatine would actually need the deathstar to be able to do 1 side attack and another different entirely by using his force powers only when necesarily.

 

But how is Sideous all powerful now?

Edited May 2, 2013 by ZahirS

[Wolfninjajedi]

Garfield does bring a good point, maybe Palpatine would actually need the deathstar to be able to do 1 side attack and another different entirely by using his force powers only when necesarily.

 

But how is Sideous all powerful now?

 

His clone younger bodies, makes him stronger to be able to do more things.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[ZahirS]

His clone younger bodies, makes him stronger to be able to do more things.

 

how exactly does that work?

 

I mean if a younger body lets him do extreme powers of the darkside, why is he a walking darkside nexus.

 

Lets assume a younger body "decays" less than his original body, even then he wouldn't be "the Greatest Sith Lord in existance" if we assume this.

[Wolfninjajedi]

how exactly does that work?

 

I mean if a younger body lets him do extreme powers of the darkside, why is he a walking darkside nexus.

 

Lets assume a younger body "decays" less than his original body, even then he wouldn't be "the Greatest Sith Lord in existance" if we assume this.

 

Its not that he couldn't do the more extreme powers using the darkside, its just that it would put a heavy tax on his body overall.

 

Take for example an old person(talking old here), they are fit enough to do a number set of push ups without tiring and can lift a considerable amount of weight.

 

Now take that same person, and put them in a younger body of themselves and they would be able to do far more then what they could previously do because their bodies are not old and frail, thus less prone to injuring themselves and such.

 

So Palpatine in a younger body, doesn't have to worry about his body failing him as he is doing all of his things. He still has a mortal body, which can decay over time and all that. His power is there, but his old body isn't with his power...however that still doesn't mean he isn't powerful in his old frail body, he is.

 

So is Palpatine in his old body still very powerful? Yes

 

Is Palpatine in his younger body, even more? Yes

Edited May 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[ZahirS]

Its not that he couldn't do the more extreme powers using the darkside, its just that it would put a heavy tax on his body overall.

 

Take for example an old person(talking old here), they are fit enough to do a number set of push ups without tiring and can lift a considerable amount of weight.

 

Now take that same person, and put them in a younger body of themselves and they would be able to do far more then what they could previously do because their bodies are not old and frail, thus less prone to injuring themselves and such.

 

So Palpatine in a younger body, doesn't have to worry about his body failing him as he is doing all of his things. He still has a mortal body, which can decay over time and all that. His power is there, but his old body isn't with his power...however that still doesn't mean he isn't powerful in his old frail body, he is.

 

So is Palpatine in his old body still very powerful? Yes

 

Is Palpatine in his younger body, even more? Yes

 

Ok let me get this:

 

So Palpatine as an Old man can do this extreme powers, but limited in some by his body correct?

 

And Palpatine in a new younger body can do more than that..Ok

 

But how does it tax his body to do darkside powers? I didn't know the ultimate Sith lords decayed by his own power? how does it work?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ok let me get this:

 

So Palpatine as an Old man can do this extreme powers, but limited in some by his body correct?

 

And Palpatine in a new younger body can do more than that..Ok

 

But how does it tax his body to do darkside powers? I didn't know the ultimate Sith lords decayed by his own power? how does it work?

 

Yes and it taxes the body in the sense, there is a danger there to himself to where if he uses his more extreme powers it can destroy his body being it wouldn't be able to handle it. Note I said BODY, his power can handle it...but the old body? No. Think of it like this...

 

Palpatine's power is in a jar, an old one(the jar representing his old body) that is about to just break open if he does anything too extreme(AKA: Force Storms his biggest Force Power).

 

Whereas you then have another jar, which is in pristine condition brand spanking new(his clone bodies) to where Palpatine then would have no problems going all out.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[GarfieldJL]

Yes and it taxes the body in the sense, there is a danger there to himself to where if he uses his more extreme powers it can destroy his body being it wouldn't be able to handle it. Note I said BODY, his power can handle it...but the old body? No. Think of it like this...

 

Palpatine's power is in a jar, an old one(the jar representing his old body) that is about to just break open if he does anything too extreme(AKA: Force Storms his biggest Force Power).

 

Whereas you then have another jar, which is in pristine condition brand spanking new(his clone bodies) to where Palpatine then would have no problems going all out.

 

Palpatine's clone bodies were suffering from decay as well, probably from using those powers more frequently, I think using the Darkside in such a manner carries with it a very steep price.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Palpatine's clone bodies were suffering from decay as well, probably from using those powers more frequently, I think using the Darkside in such a manner carries with it a very steep price.

 

They did suffer yes, but the bodies weren't in such a decayed state like his old one was at the beginning, thus giving him more leeway in terms of what he can do. Also yes the darkside does come with a price.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[FuryoftheStars]

I think I understand what wolfninjajedi is trying to explain.

 

It's like thumping on a piece of glass. Older, weaker glass can't take as many thumps before breaking as new, stronger glass can. The thumping on even the newer glass eventually weakens it, though, and so eventually becomes just as fragile as the old one is.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think I understand what wolfninjajedi is trying to explain.

 

It's like thumping on a piece of glass. Older, weaker glass can't take as many thumps before breaking as new, stronger glass can. The thumping on even the newer glass eventually weakens it, though, and so eventually becomes just as fragile as the old one is.

 

Yes exactly.

[ZahirS]

But that doesn't add up to the saying "Most powerful Sith ever", because basically he requires a clone after a time.

 

Lets try this: an Old man can't run a marathon (possibly could) but he would die doing so.

A young man can run a marathon without a problem.

 

if the darkside taxes him greatly means he doesn't posses that energy, because he never can use it.

 

laws of conservation of energy would not agree with this.

Edited May 3, 2013 by ZahirS