Luke (post-GrandMaster) vs Revan (post-KotOR)

[SoonerJBD]

Not really. He's up there in that time period, but other Force users during that time period (Great Sith War-post KOTOR) are superior.

 

This is the only thing I will take issue with. Luke and Sidious are obviously on another level from everyone else. This is well-established canon. It is also well established that force users as a whole are more powerful in the post ROTJ eras. I tend to agree that various authors have gone overboard in the powers they've doled out to some of these characters, but they exist, nonetheless.

 

But your statement about other force users of Revan's period being superior is your opinion, and nothing more. Characters within the universe, Kreia among them, characterize him as being highly exceptional. "Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force." Is Revan anywhere near Master Luke? No. No one is. But he is certainly among the most powerful if not THE most powerful Jedi of the Old Republic era.

[Kilikaa]

This is the only thing I will take issue with. Luke and Sidious are obviously on another level from everyone else. This is well-established canon. It is also well established that force users as a whole are more powerful in the post ROTJ eras. I tend to agree that various authors have gone overboard in the powers they've doled out to some of these characters, but they exist, nonetheless.

 

But your statement about other force users of Revan's period being superior is your opinion, and nothing more. Characters within the universe, Kreia among them, characterize him as being highly exceptional. "Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force." Is Revan anywhere near Master Luke? No. No one is. But he is certainly among the most powerful if not THE most powerful Jedi of the Old Republic era.

 

Revan is one of, if not the, most powerful Jedi during the Old Republic era? You do realize that the Old Republic includes the Clone Wars up to the issuing of Order 66, right? So you are saying Revan is on the same level as Yoda, Windu, Shaak Ti and others? Do you think he was as powerful as one of his own descendants, Satele Shan?

 

Revan was strong for his lifetime, before Vitiate cptured him and kept him alive for 300 years. But he is pretty low on the list of powerful Jedi, as many have surpassed him since he disappeared forever. Kreia didn't know any Jedi after Revan's second encounter with Vitiate, so her words cannot be used to grade Revan beyond her lifetime.

 

There was a reason Scourge killed Meetra Surik and let Revan fail. He saw, via Force vision, that Revan was not powerful enough to win. He saw another, more powerful Jedi defeat the Emperor.

[LadyKulvax]

But your statement about other force users of Revan's period being superior is your opinion, and nothing more. Characters within the universe, Kreia among them, characterize him as being highly exceptional. "Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force." Is Revan anywhere near Master Luke? No. No one is. But he is certainly among the most powerful if not THE most powerful Jedi of the Old Republic era.

 

One name: Exar Kun.

[Ventessel]

Revan is one of, if not the, most powerful Jedi during the Old Republic era? You do realize that the Old Republic includes the Clone Wars up to the issuing of Order 66, right? So you are saying Revan is on the same level as Yoda, Windu, Shaak Ti and others? Do you think he was as powerful as one of his own descendants, Satele Shan?

 

Think that the OP is differentiating the Old Republic Era from the Prequel Era, probably marking the change at the Ruusan Reformations. This is a commonly accepted convention.

There was a reason Scourge killed Meetra Surik and let Revan fail. He saw, via Force vision, that Revan was not powerful enough to win. He saw another, more powerful Jedi defeat the Emperor.

The reason was also probably due in large part to Scourge being a cowardly scumbag. There's nothing to indicate that his Force vision was definitely going to come true. In fact, most prophecies like that only work because the people who see them tend to accidentally make them come true.

 

So, by betraying Revan, Scourge ensured that he wouldn't kill the Emperor. This in turn made it certain that it would have to be another Jedi who finished the job. Prophecies are best ignored in cases like that.

[TheBBP]

the early EU that elevated Luke and Palpatine to the status of demi-gods. It's outrageous and even Lucas hates it.

 

Would love to see a source on this. As far as I know, he has never publicly said such a thing.

[Darkondo]

Why is this even asked? This is a dumber question than Malgus vs Sidious thread. Luke is on another level of power that even the 2nd most powerful force user (Darth Sidious) can only get to roughly half of. Your basically asking for Revan to be bashed in all the twisted ways imagined. Revan himself if he existed would look at this thread and /facepalm for even putting up such a stupid question.

 

As for Revan's power I can back it up that at his peak hes only 2nd in power to Vitiate in the GGW era, and that Satele isnt even the strongest master in her order, i mean she failed to beat Darth Baras as a jedi master for crying out loud.

 

And i know this has been debated between Beni and myself whether the JK actually killed the Emperor or just the Voice (i believe its the Voice and lore looks like its heading that way) but regardless the Emperor was said to be in a weakened state when he confronted the JK, where Revan clearly fought the real Emperor at FP.

 

That being said we should just sit back, let this if i can even call it a thread die and pretend that this "question" was never asked or at least asked as a joke. Luke>Revan anytime of the week and easily at that.

[Beniboybling]

Would love to see a source on this. As far as I know, he has never publicly said such a thing.

While Ventessel may be exaggerating he has said the following:

 

"And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..." ~ George Lucas.

 

Take it as you will, but to me it implies George Lucas has little respect for the post-ROTJ universe. Although he does have some understanding of it.

[Beniboybling]

That being said we should just sit back, let this if i can even call it a thread die and pretend that this "question" was never asked or at least asked as a joke. Luke>Revan anytime of the week and easily at that.

Oh I have no intention of using this thread as a discussion for whether Revan could beat Luke. It's just a platform for me to attack the post-ROTJ universe.

[Aurbere]

You know, I see a lot of attack on the post-ROTJ EU and how everyone is overpowered, but then there's hardly any mention of Nihilus or Vitiate. You know, the guys that drain the life of entire worlds. Or what about Naga Sadow projecting illusions across the galaxy? Or what about Sion? What about Jedi that can create typhoons with the wave of a hand?

 

Face it people, there's OP stuff happening everywhere in Star Wars.

 

And this: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

Right in A New Hope we get a guage of the power of the Force. What we see Luke and Palpatine do is insignificant.

[Darkondo]

You know, I see a lot of attack on the post-ROTJ EU and how everyone is overpowered, but then there's hardly any mention of Nihilus or Vitiate. You know, the guys that drain the life of entire worlds. Or what about Naga Sadow projecting illusions across the galaxy? Or what about Sion? What about Jedi that can create typhoons with the wave of a hand?

 

Face it people, there's OP stuff happening everywhere in Star Wars.

 

And this: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

Right in A New Hope we get a guage of the power of the Force. What we see Luke and Palpatine do is insignificant.

 

Hell, Nihilus himself (living blackhole that consumes all life touched by the force.) is so freakin OP that not even Luke or Sidious would be able to get close to him, he would just have the biggest feast imaginable since only 3 canonically confirmed individuals have either a defense or have survived his sever force/force drain. (Meetra, Visas, Sion).

Edited March 14, 2013 by Darkondo

[Beniboybling]

You know, I see a lot of attack on the post-ROTJ EU and how everyone is overpowered, but then there's hardly any mention of Nihilus or Vitiate. You know, the guys that drain the life of entire worlds. Or what about Naga Sadow projecting illusions across the galaxy? Or what about Sion? What about Jedi that can create typhoons with the wave of a hand?

 

Face it people, there's OP stuff happening everywhere in Star Wars.

 

And this: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

Right in A New Hope we get a guage of the power of the Force. What we see Luke and Palpatine do is insignificant.

I not sure those powers compare to the likes of Sidious' and Skywalkers, to the point at which them become invincible. Although IMO BioWare are buffing Vitiate up far too much, although not to the extent that it leads to bad storyline. And Nihilus' power to consume worlds actually led to some interesting plot devices and was done far more 'artfully' e.g. Nihilus claimed that power at the expense of his humanity. Nor does it make the story suck or impede on what Star Wars is, if anything its a display of how the dark side can utterly consume you, which is a underlying theme of Star Wars. I mean if Nihilus was simply a superpowerful being who could consume planets, that would suck.

 

Basically, I'm against all OPing, whatever the era, unless it is done plausibly and well enough so that it doesn't impede on good storytelling or the integrity of the universe. I feel the powers of Sidious and Skywalker do this. But them again, I'm opposed to the very concept of 'Palpatine Reborn' anyway so *shrug*.

 

And sure the Force is all powerful, but like I said its limited and should be limited by the user. And I doubt that Vader was referring to the ability to call down Force storms etc. there are far more subtle and artful ways that you can subjgate the galaxy through the Force.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I not sure those powers compare to the likes of Sidious' and Skywalkers, to the point at which them become invincible. Although IMO BioWare are buffing Vitiate up far too much, although not to the extent that it leads to bad storyline. And Nihilus' power to consume worlds actually led to some interesting plot devices and was done far more 'artfully' e.g. Nihilus claimed that power at the expense of his humanity. Nor does it make the story suck or impede on what Star Wars is, if anything its a display of how the dark side can utterly consume you, which is a underlying theme of Star Wars. I mean if Nihilus was simply a superpowerful being who could consume planets, that would suck.

 

Basically, I'm against all OPing, whatever the era, unless it is done plausibly and well enough so that it doesn't impede on good storytelling or the integrity of the universe. I feel the powers of Sidious and Skywalker do this. But them again, I'm opposed to the very concept of 'Palpatine Reborn' anyway so *shrug*.

 

And sure the Force is all powerful, but like I said its limited and should be limited by the user. And I doubt that Vader was referring to the ability to call down Force storms etc. there are far more subtle and artful ways that you can subjgate the galaxy through the Force.

 

I get it. I don't like the OP stuff either, but it happens. Rather than complain about it, I just let it go. That stuff is everywhere. There's no use complaining about it, imo.

[Darkondo]

I not sure those powers compare to the likes of Sidious' and Skywalkers, to the point at which them become invincible. Although IMO BioWare are buffing Vitiate up far too much, although not to the extent that it leads to bad storyline. And Nihilus' power to consume worlds actually led to some interesting plot devices and was done far more 'artfully' e.g. Nihilus claimed that power at the expense of his humanity. Nor does it make the story suck or impede on what Star Wars is, if anything its a display of how the dark side can utterly consume you, which is a underlying theme of Star Wars. I mean if Nihilus was simply a superpowerful being who could consume planets, that would suck.

 

Basically, I'm against all OPing, whatever the era, unless it is done plausibly and well enough so that it doesn't impede on good storytelling or the integrity of the universe. I feel the powers of Sidious and Skywalker do this. But them again, I'm opposed to the very concept of 'Palpatine Reborn' anyway so *shrug*.

 

And sure the Force is all powerful, but like I said its limited and should be limited by the user. And I doubt that Vader was referring to the ability to call down Force storms etc. there are far more subtle and artful ways that you can subjgate the galaxy through the Force.

 

Oh im not complaining about Nihilus being OP, i thought he was done great as he is the prime example of how the dark side can consume a person, i was just using him as an example.

[Beniboybling]

I get it. I don't like the OP stuff either, but it happens. Rather than complain about it, I just let it go. That stuff is everywhere. There's no use complaining about it, imo.

I won't be complaining for long, when Episode VII is released that slate will be wiped clean the the post-ROTJ universe will be no more! Bwahahahaha!

 

No but seriously, do you really think they'll let the Reborn Palp story remain? And if Luke makes an appearance, I doubt he will be as OP as the EU makes him out to be. In fact if he does appear I expect his entire story will be rehashed.

[Aurbere]

I won't be complaining for long, when Episode VII is released that slate will be wiped clean the the post-ROTJ universe will be no more! Bwahahahaha!

 

No but seriously, do you really think they'll let the Reborn Palp story remain? And if Luke makes an appearance, I doubt he will be as OP as the EU makes him out to be. In fact if he does appear I expect his entire story will be rehashed.

 

I doubt Reborn Palps and g-mode Luke will remain. I have theorized on what will happen to post-ROTJ, but I can't say for sure. We may see a 'multi-verse' occur where we have the George movies and the EU in the first, and all movies in the second. That I would prefer, but we will most likely see a slate clean.

 

Either way, Leland Chee will have his work cut out for him in rearranging the Holocron.

 

Edit: Sadly, a rework of the Post-ROTJ EU will kill my fan-fic

Edited March 14, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

I doubt Reborn Palps and g-mode Luke will remain. I have theorized on what will happen to post-ROTJ, but I can't say for sure. We may see a 'multi-verse' occur where we have the George movies and the EU in the first, and all movies in the second. That I would prefer, but we will most likely see a slate clean.

 

Either way, Leland Chee will have his work cut out for him in rearranging the Holocron.

 

Edit: Sadly, a rework of the Post-ROTJ EU will kill my fan-fic

I don't want to see any mutli-verses, that the first step towards an erratic and indefinable universe that has no real continuity and what really happened if whatever the hell you want to happen.

 

One of the things I like about Star Wars is that is has a history, a story that goes from start to finish with no interruptions, deviations or alternate destinations. Just one awesome universe. If that means slating off some previous works then so be it, that's the sacrifice we make for a tidy galaxy.

 

And if there's one thing I can't stand, its an untidy galaxy.

 

EDIT: But your fanfic will always have a head-canon place in my heart, still reading by the way.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I don't want to see any mutli-verses, that the first step towards an erratic and indefinable universe that has no real continuity and what really happened if whatever the hell you want to happen.

 

One of the things I like about Star Wars is that is has a history, a story that goes from start to finish with no interruptions, deviations or alternate destinations. Just one awesome universe. If that means slating off some previous works then so be it, that's the sacrifice we make for a tidy galaxy.

 

And if there's one thing I can't stand, its an untidy galaxy.

 

Hmm... yeah you're right. I think it's my attachment to stories like the Thrawn Trilogy that makes me want to see a 'multiverse', but it just isn't practical (imo) for a franchise like Star Wars. Like you said, Star Wars is a single flowing universe.

 

EDIT: But your fanfic will always have a head-canon place in my heart, still reading by the way. [/color]

 

Going to be posting a new chapter in about an hour.

[Beniboybling]

Hmm... yeah you're right. I think it's my attachment to stories like the Thrawn Trilogy that makes me want to see a 'multiverse', but it just isn't practical (imo) for a franchise like Star Wars. Like you said, Star Wars is a single flowing universe.

I doubt that the Thrawn Trilogy will be retconned, that seems one of the few parts of the post-ROTJ universe that is safe, given its popularity, its position as the first EU creation and its acceptance from George Lucas. And it will likely be set after those events anyhow. But we shall see. Query: does the Thrawn Triology include Palpatine Reborn? Or does that come in later EU works?

 

And I look forward to the next chapter of your FanFic.

[Aurbere]

I doubt that the Thrawn Trilogy will be retconned, that seems one of the few parts of the post-ROTJ universe that is safe, given its popularity, its position as the first EU creation and its acceptance from George Lucas. And it will likely be set after those events anyhow. But we shall see. Query: does the Thrawn Triology include Palpatine Reborn? Or does that come in later EU works?

 

And I look forward to the next chapter of your FanFic.

 

Palpatine's return comes prior to the Thrawn trilogy. So if prior EU works to the movies stays, then Reborn Palpatine will still be around.

 

[Beniboybling]

Palpatine's return comes prior to the Thrawn trilogy. So if prior EU works to the movies stays, then Reborn Palpatine will still be around.

But from an out of universe perspective, when the Thrawn Trilogy was written, has 'Palpatine Reborn' yet been established? And does the Thrawn Trilogy draw on that concept at all?

[Aurbere]

But from an out of universe perspective, when the Thrawn Trilogy was written, has 'Palpatine Reborn' yet been established? And does the Thrawn Trilogy draw on that concept at all?

 

Dark Empire (Palpatine reborn) was, according to Wookieepedia, released December of '91 and October of '92. Heir to the Empire was released in June of '91. Not exactly a major gap between the two stories.

 

In terms of in-universe, the Dark Empire rises after Thrawn is defeated, so I don't think the return of the Emperor is discussed by the Grand Admiral.

[Beniboybling]

Dark Empire (Palpatine reborn) was, according to Wookieepedia, released December of '91 and October of '92. Heir to the Empire was released in June of '91. Not exactly a major gap between the two stories.

 

In terms of in-universe, the Dark Empire rises after Thrawn is defeated, so I don't think the return of the Emperor is discussed by the Grand Admiral.

Well that means that the Palpatine Reborn concept can be rendered non-canon without heavily effecting the Thrawn Trilogy. Dew it!

[Aurbere]

Well that means that the Palpatine Reborn concept can be rendered non-canon without heavily effecting the Thrawn Trilogy. Dew it!

 

Actually, I don't think that would be the best idea. I get that you don't like the OPness of Palpatine in DE (I'm right there with you), but story-wise, IIRC it explains a lot about the Thrawn trilogy. Specifically how he was defeated. Palpatine sabotaged Thrawn's efforts by taking the majority of the Imperial military. Removing Dark Empire would cause some major plot holes in the continuity. Like, why didn't the rest of the Imperial military help Thrawn? Where did all of those ships go?

 

See what I mean.

 

Of and Chapter 19 is up for my fan-fic.

[TheBBP]

Luke.

[SoonerJBD]

Revan is one of, if not the, most powerful Jedi during the Old Republic era? You do realize that the Old Republic includes the Clone Wars up to the issuing of Order 66, right? So you are saying Revan is on the same level as Yoda, Windu, Shaak Ti and others? Do you think he was as powerful as one of his own descendants, Satele Shan?

 

The Old Republic Era as discussed here does not stretch to the Prequels. This is what Wookiepedia says about The Old Republic Era as sourced by the official Star Wars website: The Old Republic era takes place from 25,053 BBY (the founding of the Republic), until 1,000 BBY (the Seventh Battle of Ruusan and the end of the New Sith Wars). As for whether Revan was more powerful than Satele. Maybe? We have no real way to judge. Which is why definitive statements about who is the greatest whatever are pretty much useless. We know that Luke is the most powerful force user ever and Sidious is the most powerful Sith. Beyond that, every ranking you could come up with is pure speculation. You can make educated assumptions based on the canon. For example, we know the Jedi of the prequel era are stronger than the Jedi of the Old Republic era on the whole. We know the Jedi of the New Jedi Order and later are even more powerful on the whole. Which is why you can suggest that Yoda would likely be more powerful than Revan. But there just isn't any good evidence to pick a winner between say, Revan and Satele or Revan and Malgus.

 

Revan was strong for his lifetime, before Vitiate cptured him and kept him alive for 300 years. But he is pretty low on the list of powerful Jedi, as many have surpassed him since he disappeared forever. Kreia didn't know any Jedi after Revan's second encounter with Vitiate, so her words cannot be used to grade Revan beyond her lifetime.

 

And you are basing this on what? Revan conquered the galaxy as a Sith, re-conquered it after he turned back to the light, and if you actually read the book, the only reason he didn't murder Vitiate was because of Scourge's betrayal. And Kreia's statement is not meant to be some sort of definitive statement. It's merely backing up that he was a truly exceptional and powerful force user.

 

There was a reason Scourge killed Meetra Surik and let Revan fail. He saw, via Force vision, that Revan was not powerful enough to win. He saw another, more powerful Jedi defeat the Emperor.

 

Visions are what you make of them. This has been established plenty of times in the Star Wars universe. Just because a force user has a vision does not mean what they see is definitely going to happen.

 

Look, I'm not someone who is going to say Revan would challenge Luke or Yoda or Sidious. That is nonsense. But so is the constant drumbeat by people who want to downplay his ability. There is no official ranking of who is stronger than who. But we do know that based on what Revan accomplished, he is THE greatest Jedi of his time and up there with the best of the era. That's all I'm saying here.