Scripts in PVP

[Xerain]

They were not losing either, they were doing just as good as they always do which leads me to believe that either

A:they arent using these so called scripts, as the OPs quote claims all top guilds do.

B: The only people smart enough to see it are you fine gentlemen(lucky us you prodigies are here to help us),

or

C.Aliens

 

but then again i guess if i were going to justify a conspiracy theory, i could just say "they must be awesome pros at hiding this stuff, thats why we cant see it" or "they hacked starwars, they must of hacked twitch too and edited the streams....IN REAL TIME"

 

Hey i'm not saying that everyone is using them. But if a team or players on a team were to would the one streaming seriously show that they are? Would you let everyone know you were botting pvp if you were to do it?

 

Conspiracy theory, go look up the programs needed noob.

[Crawelc]

So much anger, and still no yellow posts.

[Crawelc]

Because the OP has rubbished the integrity of everyone who tries to PvP to any decent standard on his server without any actual evidence?

 

And then you accuse *him* of mounting an inquisition? Troll on.

 

When did I mention my server? Maybe its your server.

[MariaD]

I don't see a problem. If that script exists, playing with it is ridiculously boring. Even the character in the OPs story quit fast.

 

So the script basically has no target audience of users for it, the way I see it. Maybe some of those "script kiddies" who like to experiment. For all five minutes it will be fun.

 

There was something interesting in this thread, though. Can you create algorithms to win in PvP?

 

People compared PvP with chess and said PvP has more complexity to it. Complexity of a game is a math variable you can actually measure, though it's not an easy task, so I don't feel tempted to work on it. Still, the conversations on decision-making in PvP were pretty interesting to read. I want to thank people who commented here for this food for thought.

[Caeliux]

I don't see a problem. If that script exists, playing with it is ridiculously boring. Even the character in the OPs story quit fast.

The problem is if people are using scripts its exploiting, and if people are exploiting in ranked matched PvP then its cheating, and if people are cheating then why would anyone build up a guild to do ranked knowing people are using scripts.

 

Dealing with hacks is one thing, but dealing with exploits goes too far.

 

It has nothing to do with being boring, it has to do with people being handed some bs when some people can't play the game without some exploit.

 

That's where it draws the line.

[MariaD]

The problem is if people are using scripts its exploiting, and if people are exploiting in ranked matched PvP then its cheating, and if people are cheating then why would anyone build up a guild to do ranked knowing people are using scripts..

 

Well, the character in the original story quit. I can't picture anyone with half a brain cell not being bored to tears within the first minutes of doing what OP described.

 

Moreover, my second point stands. Scripts aren't competitive against good players.

 

So there is no motivation for scripting that I see. It won't make you win competitive games, and it will make the whole experience unbearably boring.

Edited March 9, 2013 by MariaD

[Arlanon]

OP claims that top rated guilds are using this.

 

I would expect that the most likely users of something like this would be the terrible players who can't play their class properly on their own.

 

If anything, you will see this in a pug. And he will be far from unbeatable.

[JackNader]

This whole thread is silly. As has been stated before, scripting is only really useful for players that wish to rapid level while being AFK or farm credits. That's their typical function. They are not viable in PvP. Think about all the games you've played in the past vs AI NPC bots. Have you ever encountered a single AI capable of beating an actual player on fair terms (same health, same abilities, etc) The answer is NO. There are too many variables in play. This is why bots are given extreme health, damage and other advantages so that the playing field is somewhat leveled.

 

What if the class botting is a sniper and they are given optimal rotations. How would they perform if I open on them with my concealment operative, knock half their health off and then start LOSing back and forth while lobbing grenades and pew pew. Will the bot try to root me or will it simply try casting ambush over and over and over like actual bots do in star wars. What if it does root me and I cleanse the root and begin using the same strategy. What then? A typical player will try and find a means of overcoming my strategy but a bot is literally powerless to stop me..

Edited March 9, 2013 by JackNader

[cashogy_reborn]

the kind of script that is being talked about in this thread would use image recognition to watch for procs, health levels, etc. the argument is that this significantly increases reaction time, flawlessly executes proper combos, and generally removes human error from the equation. basically you have to still move your character around, but the script executes all of your abilities.

 

however, i think that people are forgetting that gamers have pretty ridiculous hand-eye-coordination and reaction time. not computer speed, but the combat in this game is not fast enough that fractions of a second are going to impact the outcome of fights.

 

plus, a physical person is more capable of reacting to any situation, whereas a script is limited by its design. eventually youre gonna run into a situation where human reaction is going to trump the script.

 

i highly doubt that any of the top PvPers use something like this. bads maybe, but a skilled player already has a significant advantage over the average player.

[LenrocNewDawn]

What baffles me about this is the opinion based debate that emerged. The default position about this should be somewhere on the lines of "Macro scripts usage for PvP and not only is a bad thing for the game and developers should pursue any means to discourage it. BW?" The fact that you don't think that they are used enough to present a problem or that they are no viable are of little value and repeating same opinionated argument over and over again make me wonder if there are hidden agendas behind those.

 

For clarity, nobody asserted that an entire automated character (bot) is viable in PvP, nobody asserted that there aren't good enough players to excel w/o using one. All it was stated was " There is a tool out there that can stream line the information gathering and action execution of the human player involved in PvP". If you are naive enough to think that such a tool would go unused then .... I've wasted my time.

[cashogy_reborn]

it is definitely cheating, and should be addressed by bioware.

 

all i was saying is that i doubt that such scripts as the ones being talked about here do not provide as significant of an advantage as some people are claiming.

[Pistols-GS]

For clarity, nobody asserted that an entire automated character (bot) is viable in PvP, nobody asserted that there aren't good enough players to excel w/o using one. All it was stated was " There is a tool out there that can stream line the information gathering and action execution of the human player involved in PvP". If you are naive enough to think that such a tool would go unused then .... I've wasted my time.

 

Very well articulated, and exactly what is being presented by the OP.

 

Again though, I know of nobody who does it, claimed to have done it or other. The person the Op referred to, is someone however that did a lot of Ranked PvP, and did pretty well. Think his point is, if one is doing it, it's highly plausible that others are as well. Arguing over whether it's viable or not, is irrelevant (to me).

Edited March 9, 2013 by Pistols-GS

[Caeliux]

all i was saying is that i doubt that such scripts as the ones being talked about here do not provide as significant of an advantage as some people are claiming.

 

Maybe so, either way something from Bioware about this matter would be smart.

 

After all we are customers here and demand answers, how long do they want people to worry about this when gearing for 2.0.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Caeliux

[Pistols-GS]

Also, let it be known now, that Xerain likes poles.

 

[dcgregorya]

Agree Bioware can't stop it, but disagree on it being the worst idea puting it out there for people to see on the forums.

 

I think us as customers we need some answers why this game is allowing people to make scripts and its against the rules.

 

We need someone from Bioware to help us understand this matter, we need to know if this is something they consider in the rule book or do they plan on investigating it,

 

Something needs done about it, scripts is cheating at its worst.

 

I completely agree that Bioware can do nothing to deal with this fictional problem. That's the problem with fictional problems, they're hard to address without fictional responses.

 

In general, he's full of ****. Macros do not do intelligent things without hooks to be able to respond to situations. Example - responding to a cast to interrupt. That doesn't work with this game. You'd have to be tabbing through everyone to get their cast bar then have a pixel match to figure out what they're casting. It'd be stupid amounts of work for something that anyone who doesn't suck can do intuitively anyway.

 

And LOL for calling razor/logitech keybinds/macros "cheat scripts". Idiots.

Edited March 9, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Xerain]

Also, let it be known now, that Xerain likes poles.

 

 

I stand on one all day in game!

[dcgregorya]

the kind of script that is being talked about in this thread would use image recognition to watch for procs, health levels, etc. the argument is that this significantly increases reaction time, flawlessly executes proper combos, and generally removes human error from the equation. basically you have to still move your character around, but the script executes all of your abilities.

 

What makes me laugh is that some people genuinely believe this exists and that it would work properly. It'd take hundreds if not thousands of hours to design and implement as a 3rd party thing without any API from Bioware to know who is doing what. And it'd break every time there's a minor update. And it'd never be that smart anyway - just like the AI in the game is not that smart anyway.

 

This game isn't nearly complicated enough to warrant that kind of labor.

 

And the other funny thing is people combine macros (just hitting multiple keybinds with one keystroke) in the same league as a bot that magically is more intelligent than a person.

[MariaD]

The fact that you don't think that they are used enough to present a problem or that they are no viable are of little value and repeating same opinionated argument over and over again make me wonder if there are hidden agendas behind those.

 

For clarity, nobody asserted that an entire automated character (bot) is viable in PvP, nobody asserted that there aren't good enough players to excel w/o using one. All it was stated was " There is a tool out there that can stream line the information gathering and action execution of the human player involved in PvP". If you are naive enough to think that such a tool would go unused then .... I've wasted my time.

 

The amount and conditions of usage are important for decision-making at BW, because devs have to prioritize funds. How game-breaking is the infraction, both for mechanics and for its symbolic value to the players? How many players does it affect? How likely is it to get worse? These questions help to decide which of problems to solve first.

 

The most interesting part of the discussion, for me, is this: CAN such a tool make decisions for players in PvP?

 

For example, breaking CC has been mentioned. I thought of some variables that go into my decision of breaking my CC (or not) in Huttball, my favorite battleground, on my Juggernaut, my favorite PvP character, assuming he carries the ball. The full list would be many times longer; this is just a sample. I marked by italics those conditions I would not be able to program, even with pixel recognition. These conditions depend on my human judgments, such as whether my and enemy team are strong players.

 

• Am I indeed carrying the ball?
  
• Am I still being attacked?
  
• Am I being healed well enough, based on what I know about friends and enemies, to withstand enemies attacking me, while I am stunned?
  
• Is the goal line far?
  
• Are there enemies between me and the goal line?
  
• Are there likely to be enemies arriving or spawning between me and the goal line during the stun-breaker CD time?
  
• Is someone about to pull me to safety?
  
• Will I be able to Force Charge or Intercede once I come out of the stun?
  

 

If a script is smart enough to consider all these (and many more) tactical and strategic variables before using my stun breaker better than (to quote my Juggernaut's former master) a blind, deaf, comatose lobotomy patient, I am interested in learning more. Because it would be a true breakthrough in AI.

 

My hidden agenda is that I work in game design. Imagine how cool games would be if we could make NPCs that play that well?!

Edited March 9, 2013 by MariaD

[Mr_Elotes]

This is a dev post I found but not the one I was looking for. The one I am trying to find has what they feel about razer and logitech products as well. The response below i think is almost from a year ago...not sure if their stance has changed.

 

Greetings everyone,

 

When talking about anything macro related we would like to provide the following guidelines:

• No automation
  
• No delays or looped commands in macros
  
• It is okay to bind a macro that performs abilities after each other as long as it still requires the user to press the button on the physical keyboard each time a new action is performed
  

These rules apply regardless of which peripheral you are using.

 

Hope this clears it up a bit, but if you have further questions regarding the topic please get back to us!

 

The OP to that thread (thread was http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=316728&highlight=official+response+macros) got a response from CSR that triggered the thread...read the OP and the response and make your own decision i guess.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Mr_Elotes

[LenrocNewDawn]

The amount and conditions of usage are important for decision-making at BW, because devs have to prioritize funds. How game-breaking is the infraction, both for mechanics and for its symbolic value to the players? How many players does it affect? How likely is it to get worse? These questions help to decide which of problems to solve first.

 

The most interesting part of the discussion, for me, is this: CAN such a tool make decisions for players in PvP?

 

For example, breaking CC has been mentioned. I thought of some variables that go into my decision of breaking my CC (or not) in Huttball, my favorite battleground, on my Juggernaut, my favorite PvP character, assuming he carries the ball. The full list would be many times longer; this is just a sample. I marked by italics those conditions I would not be able to program, even with pixel recognition. These conditions depend on my human judgments, such as whether my and enemy team are strong players.

 

• Am I indeed carrying the ball?
  
• Am I still being attacked?
  
• Am I being healed well enough, based on what I know about friends and enemies, to withstand enemies attacking me, while I am stunned?
  
• Is the goal line far?
  
• Are there enemies between me and the goal line?
  
• Are there likely to be enemies arriving or spawning between me and the goal line during the stun-breaker CD time?
  
• Is someone about to pull me to safety?
  
• Will I be able to Force Charge or Intercede once I come out of the stun?
  

 

If a script is smart enough to consider all these (and many more) tactical and strategic variables before using my stun breaker better than (to quote my Juggernaut's former master) a blind, deaf, comatose lobotomy patient, I am interested in learning more. Because it would be a true breakthrough in AI.

 

My hidden agenda is that I work in game design. Imagine how cool games would be if we could make NPCs that play that well?!

 

Using a Macro doesn't mean you are giving up control of your character. You are still able to make judgement call and override the said script, nobody said that they developed the perfect AI. I don't think that the CC breaker ability should be scripted but med pack the instant you get bellow 30% (or the execute ability for when your opponent dips bellow 30%) or cleanse the second you get dotted or the perfect combo for the 4.5 seconds of Gore and plenty other stuff can be automated. Somebody suggested that such a program will account for every single enemy which nobody claimed to be true. It can only account for you, your selected target and maybe a focus target (don't really know I'm fishing here).

 

And I said "The fact that you don't think...." key element in there is "you". I didn't say Bioware but you as in the opinionated forum poster that has no means to evaluate the magnitude of the phenomena. I grant you I can't properly evaluate that myself that's why my position is the default one.

 

I don't think that the right attitude is " Nothing to be seen here folks, move along" but rather "We have this possible situation that is game breaking , could you please investigate?"

[MariaD]

Using a Macro doesn't mean you are giving up control of your character. You are still able to make judgement call and override the said script, nobody said that they developed the perfect AI.

 

I was responding to the story by the OP. This is what the OP wrote, for example (highlight mine):

I wrote a script for my toon that could execute the best attack all the time, even look at my procs and manage

resources. All I really had to do was position myself well and the script did the rest. It tore people apart.

 

Much of the following conversation was about decision-making, because of the claims the script could do that.

 

I don't think that the CC breaker ability should be scripted but med pack the instant you get bellow 30% (or the execute ability for when your opponent dips bellow 30%) or cleanse the second you get dotted or the perfect combo for the 4.5 seconds of Gore and plenty other stuff can be automated.

 

As you have seen from my list, I agree with you that the CC breaker cannot be automated. Let me tackle the next item on your list, medpac at low health. I buy medpacs wholesale and use them in PvP all the time. Here is a small part of my decision-making list for medpacs at low health. Again, I put in italics decisions I think only humans can make - at least until we have those HK-51 assassination protocol scripts from the galaxy far, far away available here on Earth.

 

• Is my health indeed under 30%?
  
• Are heals incoming my way? Are they good enough to keep me up, given the surrounding friends and enemies?
  
• Am I still being attacked?
  
• If I am not attacked, am I likely to be attacked more before I can regenerate?
  
• Is there a strategic advantage to me surviving, or is it better for me to die (e.g. for respawning close to the objective)? Will we win/lose whether I live or die?
  
• Is the enemy so undergeared and unskilled I can take her even when I am at low health?
  

 

And I said "The fact that you don't think...." key element in there is "you". I didn't say Bioware but you as in the opinionated forum poster that has no means to evaluate the magnitude of the phenomena. I grant you I can't properly evaluate that myself that's why my position is the default one.

The default position is that things don't exist until the existence is proven. Otherwise, we would spend all our days chasing after Flying Spaghetti Monsters (may Their Noodly Appendages bless you).

 

Having said that, I am with you: I would be interested in Phillip_BW the security guy commenting on related issues, too. Just because he consistently writes interesting content.

Edited March 9, 2013 by MariaD

[Arlanon]

And it'd never be that smart anyway - just like the AI in the game is not that smart anyway.

 

just like the players in the game are not that smart anyway

 

if people exerted half as much effort to improve themselves as they do whining on the forums we'd have some decent matches.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Arlanon

[XeSTiL]

This isn't about the 1337 people or rateds. Why do people keep bringing it up?

 

and they're talking about the Shadowlands server... luls Reg plays rateds with Horizon and a "top shadowlands pvp rated team" and he said last night "nobody on shadowlands would ever do (X amount of stats) in Civil War."

 

nobody gives a **** what server you're playing on. read the OP. This is about scripts.. not even macros necessarily... but scripts... "only use this if this proc is up" "use this ability if this happens" scripts. yes it makes thinking go away, all you have to do is point and pew pew pew pew happens automatically

[Crawelc]

still no yellow post? maybe on monday.

[XeSTiL]

also like to point out that around august/september i think... the baddie sentinel from HSP was streaming rateds... and it was kind of obvious that he was using some type of macro program, if not a script, because every single time he attacked about 5 abilities tried to go off and he got red messages on his screen saying they weren't off cooldown yet... sooooooooooo not everyone that uses these programs is good, just sayin. but i mean bioware is still in some weird denial about it, obviously and that's the problem. accusing "top rated teams" is stupid and only makes you look like a kid who is pouting because your rated team is about as likely to win as the lakers this season... good players > baddies with macros. but a good player vs a good player w a macro is probably going to go to the guy w the helper. i think this is the only point that matters. ***** cakes.