S+V : 16M-HM (world ranking)

[OSUKirkland]

<Chosen> - Prophecy of the Five

 

16man HM

 

Thrasher: 4/14 at 10:39pm EDT

http://i.imgur.com/4h8lYjy.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2lZUOmi.jpg

 

Operations Chief: 4/14 at 11:39pm EDT

http://i.imgur.com/lDUlkfT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CO9QkO3.jpg

[Grimsblood]

<Severity Gaming> ; US-East PvP, Prophecy of the Five, Republic

 

We finally got around to going into 16 Man HM Scum and Villainy. Below are s/s of my achievements. Sadly we completely forgot to take screens (and I forgot to video) our run. It was not until the end when it hit us. As we all knew, the skill requirement for this instance was low. The fights were not the challenging. Here is to NiM TFB progression! [On test, our only experience with this instance was up to Operations Chief. We spent more time doing other things then moving through the rest of the Operation.]

 

Dash'Roode: http://i47.tinypic.com/1hp10i.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 8:12:49 PM EST ) [1 Shot]

Titan 6: http://i45.tinypic.com/351tp1k.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 8:32:41 PM EST ) [2 Pulls]

Thrasher: http://i45.tinypic.com/28s1v8k.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 9:06:44 PM EST ) [4 Pulls]

Operations Chief: http://i47.tinypic.com/vrpwjo.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 9:42:14 PM EST ) [1 Shot]

Olock the Shadow: http://i48.tinypic.com/sec9eh.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 10:04:38 PM EST ) [1 Shot]

Cartel Warlords: http://i50.tinypic.com/wbvzth.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 10:27:03 PM EST ) [3 Pulls] - Only one with video.

Dread Master Styrak: http://i46.tinypic.com/whh5de.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 11:57:31 PM EST ) [5 Pulls]

 

Total Elapsed Time: 3 hours, 51 minutes

 

I and a few others are a tad curious as to how many attempts and how long the rest of the guilds spent in the instance post 2.0.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Grimsblood

[Nibbon]

<Severity Gaming> ; US-East PvP, Prophecy of the Five, Republic

 

We finally got around to going into 16 Man HM Scum and Villainy. Below are s/s of my achievements. Sadly we completely forgot to take screens (and I forgot to video) our run. It was not until the end when it hit us. As we all knew, the skill requirement for this instance was low. The fights were not the challenging. Here is to NiM TFB progression! [On test, our only experience with this instance was up to Operations Chief. We spent more time doing other things then moving through the rest of the Operation.]

 

Dash'Roode: http://i47.tinypic.com/1hp10i.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 8:12:49 PM EST ) [1 Shot]

Titan 6: http://i45.tinypic.com/351tp1k.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 8:32:41 PM EST ) [2 Pulls]

Thrasher: http://i45.tinypic.com/28s1v8k.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 9:06:44 PM EST ) [4 Pulls]

Operations Chief: http://i47.tinypic.com/vrpwjo.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 9:42:14 PM EST ) [1 Shot]

Olock the Shadow: http://i48.tinypic.com/sec9eh.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 10:04:38 PM EST ) [1 Shot]

Cartel Warlords: http://i50.tinypic.com/wbvzth.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 10:27:03 PM EST ) [3 Pulls] - Only one with video.

Dread Master Styrak: http://i46.tinypic.com/whh5de.jpg ( 4/14/2012; 11:57:31 PM EST ) [5 Pulls]

 

Total Elapsed Time: 3 hours, 51 minutes

 

I and a few others are a tad curious as to how many attempts and how long the rest of the guilds spent in the instance post 2.0.

 

Updated through my post:

carnage thrasher and titan last night

 

To answer your question - we still aren't raiding with our primary 16 (I think we raided with about 4-5 new to carnage last night and probably 10 new to carnage on Thursday). We put about 5 hours total into getting those first 3 down but I think it will be smoother sailing from here out - I'll let you know ;p

 

 

edit: here's the link for anyone looking, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgCWcFAbOaZwdG1qZGhwbWpTSnczQXBEYlU2b05ZSkE#gid=18

Edited April 15, 2013 by Nibbon

[Garell]

The fight was tuned accordingly to enable a large portion of the raiding population to experience the content.

 

Think about the reasons why guilds found this content easy, before inflating ego's in here...

[Nibbon]

The fight was tuned accordingly to enable a large portion of the raiding population to experience the content.

 

Think about the reasons why guilds found this content easy, before inflating ego's in here...

 

What Elidhu said. The thing to remember here is, this is hard mode, not nightmare. When it comes to actual high end raiding and comparing progression to one another - nightmare is all that really matters (we all sort of agreed on this, from what I remember, when I spoke with all of you).

 

Still sub 4 hour clear is the fastest I've seen, so well done And well done to everyone - the majority of us did/are doing this with pretty bad gear, so it is still a little challenging.

[sang]

...

I and a few others are a tad curious as to how many attempts and how long the rest of the guilds spent in the instance post 2.0.

 

Elidhu and Nibbon hit the nail on the head. I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact HM S&V is not the hardest operation around (HM TFB was more challenging upon release) and that NiM TFB will be more appropriately challenging, but please don’t disrespect the guilds who beat you to kills with your passive aggressive rhetoric.

 

There is a reason kills are tracked in how fast they are completed from release. The quicker the kill the less time a guild has to farm gear, consumables, and any other added benefit. Thus the progression game is about how skilled a guild is to do more with less. You may have taken 4 hours to full clear the entire raid (which is the fastest total kill time so congratulations), but your group composition and total benefits were not equal to those of guilds clearing it within the first day or two of release - regardless of how challenging the content is. My guess is most of them were probably still running in full Dread Guard with their more dedicated raiders in an Arkanian piece or two from flashpoints they were able to squeeze in prior to raid.

 

And before the early access comment is brought up, let me point out that every guild knew about early access had the opportunity to try to form a raid ready group with players who pre-ordered by the necessary date. Now obviously this is easier for some guilds than others (For example, MoX has a larger player pool to draw from than most) and I imagine other guilds didn’t have as much of a problem as all their raiders pre-ordered early eager for new content; but I find it hard to believe no guild was completely unaffected by early access in their initial HM S&V clears. Heck, I didn’t see you kill bosses with a few level 50s in your group like Chosen did.

 

So please, don’t post in this thread talking about how little experience you did or did not have on PTS or how fast you cleared the whole instance in your passive aggressive self aggrandizing tone because its not needed. This is the last I’ll say on the matter as I’m not going to derail this thread with this type of discussion as it was going so well before your post. Congrats to all who have completed and good luck to those still working toward kills.

Edited April 15, 2013 by sang

[Grimsblood]

I think my point and intent was missed. I am by no means trying to measure an e-peen or anything of the like here. My mistake for not making it clear.

 

I am just trying to get a feel for how much time other guilds have spent in there. Each guild has different raid times and nuisances to how they function. In theory, one guild could spend 8 hours in an instances while another only schedules 1. The time spent in would drastically effect their static rank since we have "special circumstances" surrounding this Tier of "progression". Since I can not pull this information from the list, I figured I would ask. It is simply a point of debate between a few guildies and I.

 

On another note, it is nice seeing a new face (Frog) join us for progression. I wish we had more 16 man guilds pushing with us.

[JDotter]

(For example, MoX has a larger player pool to draw from than most)

 

 

 

I enjoyed that

 

 

 

Anyhow on the topic of clear time it took MoX <6 hours, its all on twitch. We went in when we had 16 55's. We don't have a progression 16 group tbh, we currently have 2 raid groups that are set 8-10 man groups and the rest is thrown together. Hopefully for NM we get a set 16 but we'll see and grats on the clears all.

Tbh I'd rather have 18 raiders and a guild of 22-24 then the 400 or so we have.

 

Oh and after doing 8 man TFB HM with my group on Thursday it was more challenging than S&V. We hit enrage on last boss at 11% and on operator we had to fail a phase to clear it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by JDotter

[Grimsblood]

I enjoyed that

 

 

 

Anyhow on the topic of clear time it took MoX <6 hours, its all on twitch. We went in when we had 16 55's. We don't have a progression 16 group tbh, we currently have 2 raid groups that are set 8-10 man groups and the rest is thrown together. Hopefully for NM we get a set 16 but we'll see and grats on the clears all

tbh I'd rather have 18 raiders then 400 members to "choose" from.

 

Oh and after doing 8 man TFB HM with my group on Thursday it was more challenging than S&V. We hit enrage on last boss at 11% and on operator we had to fail a phase to clear it.

 

I agree on the bit about TFB. We went in there as well. I was healing and noticed that in each fight that had AoE damage components, it hit like trucks. It was some of the most intensive healing I have done in a long while.

 

 

Now that Sang brought it up, I am curious as to how Chosen's 50's are doing in the raids. Are they able to hit the boss enough to make a difference or are they healing? Would it be possible to do the op with a full group of 50's?

[Aerro]

I agree on the bit about TFB. We went in there as well. I was healing and noticed that in each fight that had AoE damage components, it hit like trucks. It was some of the most intensive healing I have done in a long while.

 

 

Now that Sang brought it up, I am curious as to how Chosen's 50's are doing in the raids. Are they able to hit the boss enough to make a difference or are they healing? Would it be possible to do the op with a full group of 50's?

 

Healing? As a 50 its do-able... but as a DPS just expect mobs to deflect the majority of your attacks. If you enjoy barely breaking 1k DPS, then by all means, go in as 50 haha.

[Nibbon]

Carnage completed their clear tonight:

 

16 man S+V HM clear (4/15)

styrak: http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/572267/original.jpg?1366083658

cartel warlords: http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/572269/original.jpg?1366083665

olok: http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/572274/original.jpg?1366084657

operations chief: http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/572265/original.jpg?1366083649

 

all times are CDT (so... GMT-5 I think).

[OSUKirkland]

<Chosen> - Prophecy of the Five

 

7/7 16man HM SV

 

Olok the Shadow: 4/15 at 9:35pm EDT

http://i.imgur.com/5hmUBKz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aYIMdk6.jpg

 

Cartel Warlords: 4/15 at 10:20pm EDT

http://i.imgur.com/Yb4DrV9.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/OwISFA0.jpg

 

Dread Master Styrak: 4/15 at 11:32pm EDT

http://i.imgur.com/b04Gmj7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nS8gZa8.jpg

[Drussy]

Nibbon, I'm going to suggest something to improve your ranking system (just an idea and with my academic english).

 

Well I think that when we succed in killing a raid boss, we should be rewarded proportionately to the difficulty we had to kill it. So what I suggest is simple, I'll explain it with an example :

 

The operation is out at 8:00 PM, the first raid boss is worth 10 000 (exactly the same that you did)

At 9:00 PM it's worth now 10 001 (we can also discuss about a x 10 ratio, so it would be 10 010 at 9:00 PM)

 

So if you follow me, at 6:00 AM, it's worth 10 010 (or 10 100 with the ratio). Ok then a guild kills this first boss and wins those points. At this moment, 2 things :

- the first boss value begins to decrease as you did in your sheet (so 10 009 one hour later etc...).

- the second boss value begins to increase.

 

I hope I made it clearly, I think it's easier to understand with an example. If you agree then we can discuss about the increase speed of the boss values.

 

What do you think ?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Drussy

[Shandellon]

May I ask why is first two bosses rated less than 3-6? I personally see no difficulty increase from Titan6 to Trasher. Thus, what other reason could there be?

[Drussy]

May I ask why is first two bosses rated less than 3-6? I personally see no difficulty increase from Titan6 to Trasher. Thus, what other reason could there be?

 

Sorry, I forgot to add that it works for all the boss

We can even imagine that the ratio on the last boss is a bit more important.

[Nibbon]

Nibbon, I'm going to suggest something to improve your ranking system (just an idea and with my academic english).

 

Well I think that when we succed in killing a raid boss, we should be rewarded proportionately to the difficulty we had to kill it. So what I suggest is simple, I'll explain it with an example :

 

The operation is out at 8:00 PM, the first raid boss is worth 10 000 (exactly the same that you did)

At 9:00 PM it's worth now 10 001 (we can also discuss about a x 10 ratio, so it would be 10 010 at 9:00 PM)

 

So if you follow me, at 6:00 AM, it's worth 10 010 (or 10 100 with the ratio). Ok then a guild kills this first boss and wins those points. At this moment, 2 things :

- the first boss value begins to decrease as you did in your sheet (so 10 009 one hour later etc...).

- the second boss value begins to increase.

 

I hope I made it clearly, I think it's easier to understand with an example. If you agree then we can discuss about the increase speed of the boss values.

 

What do you think ?

 

Thanks for discussing improvements to the system. I sort of like what you did there, but I need to point out a flaw. Essentially, those bonus points don't do anything except to serve how long from the previous boss the next one was killed - but they do not actually effect the rankings. Whether the points start at 10,000 or 10,001 or 10,100 they all deteriorate at the same point. So if guild 1 kills at 10,100 and guild 2 kills at 10,080 that is no different than if they killed at 10,000 and 9,980. This method of adding points until kill is just more work and complication, to be honest.

 

I like where you were going with it though, but I think I'm pretty set in keeping the system generally the same for content going forward (first 2 worth slightly less, last one slightly more time deterioration system).

[Nibbon]

May I ask why is first two bosses rated less than 3-6? I personally see no difficulty increase from Titan6 to Trasher. Thus, what other reason could there be?

 

I'm guessing this was actually pointed at me and my system?

 

If you want to read up on some of the logic of this system, I suggest you read my torwars post here:

http://torwars.com/2013/04/15/carnage-progression-ranking-system/

 

And also read the comments here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgCWcFAbOaZwdG1qZGhwbWpTSnczQXBEYlU2b05ZSkE#gid=8

 

Note that, even though it says it is because historically the first boss is the easiest - and even though that held true in this operation - it really is more about lessening the blow to the guilds that can't get in as fast - that is why the first two are worth less than the rest in the operation.

[Ansalem]

with the new achievement system in place is it really necessary to post times etc? I mean you could just screenshot the time label from the achievement.

[Nibbon]

with the new achievement system in place is it really necessary to post times etc? I mean you could just screenshot the time label from the achievement.

 

I've posted my concerns about it - it isn't 100% reliable yet. That being said, yeah I would probably take them (and have been) as a proof shot - the only thing I ask is that people take a picture of their achievement in front of the corpse to confirm it was an all guild run, or something along those lines (I'm really not going to be too picky here, that is more of a request).

[Grimsblood]

Thanks for discussing improvements to the system. I sort of like what you did there, but I need to point out a flaw. Essentially, those bonus points don't do anything except to serve how long from the previous boss the next one was killed - but they do not actually effect the rankings. Whether the points start at 10,000 or 10,001 or 10,100 they all deteriorate at the same point. So if guild 1 kills at 10,100 and guild 2 kills at 10,080 that is no different than if they killed at 10,000 and 9,980. This method of adding points until kill is just more work and complication, to be honest.

 

I like where you were going with it though, but I think I'm pretty set in keeping the system generally the same for content going forward (first 2 worth slightly less, last one slightly more time deterioration system).

 

If we wanted to adjust the system as a community for the difficulty factor, you would simply have the point values reset to 10000 after it was killed the first time. In other words, value increase --> Boss is Killed --> Increased Value of points goes to first kill --> Point Value of boss resets to pre bonus levels.

[Nibbon]

If we wanted to adjust the system as a community for the difficulty factor, you would simply have the point values reset to 10000 after it was killed the first time. In other words, value increase --> Boss is Killed --> Increased Value of points goes to first kill --> Point Value of boss resets to pre bonus levels.

 

I thought of that - but this goes back to two original points.

 

1. Is it fair if a European guild gets this bonus and the US doesn't?

2. Is it really worth 100 more points if guild 1 kills Boss 3 1 minutes before guild 2 does?

 

I say no to both - and that is why we didn't do bonus points in the first place.

 

I'll reiterate that the system we have in place isn't perfect, but I think it is the best we can do. I gave plenty of opportunity for the top 7 or so guilds in the last tier of content to comment on this system - so I have no intention of changing it unless someone can find a glaring error.

 

I, for one, think the system worked extremely well for the 8 guilds involved thus far and see no reason to alter anything. Come the Nightmare modes - we will have the opportunity of all approaching on more even footing regarding both gearing up and early access people.

 

edit: I think it is also worth mentioning, I am GM of Carnage Gaming and we killed the last boss exactly one minute before Chosen did yet are ranked under them. I think the ranking system did an excellent job in awarding Chosen a higher overall ranking over Carnage - and did an equally good job scoring it so it was so close.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Nibbon

[tahoeWolverine]

Thanks for the shoutout, Nibbon, we were generally happy with the turnout as well. We're still in favor of the small weight to later bosses with greater deterioration; the system appeared to hold up nicely. I do think that the kills need to continue to have corpse, difficulty, raid frames, and world clock up as opposed to achievements. We know how CS has been in this game with awarding things to people that ask for them .

 

About the 1 minute...a guildie fell through the bridge before our last pull We had you!

Edited April 16, 2013 by tahoeWolverine

[Aerro]

I like this ranking system a lot better than what we have had to work with in the past, however I do have one small gripe.

 

I think the last boss should just naturally be worth quite a bit more. Granted, it wouldn't have changed the current rankings now but there are some occasions where killing the last boss could potentially shoot someone up 1-2 slots. Preferably a great amount but with a major deterioration over time.

[kanare]

Guys the rank system is fair , if any guild had any thing to complain about it would be FF, who , lost out on world first because of bio ware shutting half the severs down for over 3 hours , at a key time in the race so plz stop complaining ..................... Nibon has made it as fair as possible and well done to him ...........

 

from me

and FF

 

p.s. If you ever tell any 1 i said some thing nice about nib i will kill all !!! shhh !!!!

Edited April 16, 2013 by kanare

[Aerro]

Guys the rank system is fair , if any guild had any thing to complain about it would be FF, who , lost out on world first because of bio ware shutting half the severs down for over 3 hours , at a key time in the race so plz stop complaining ..................... Nibon has made it as fair as possible and well done to him ...........

 

from me

and FF

 

p.s. If you ever tell any 1 i said some thing nice about nib i will kill all !!! shhh !!!!

 

No one is saying it isn't fair, people are just voicing opinions to make it more optimal. Its a lot better than what we had used in the past, but there are still some tweaks we still need. Also, don't get upset over the whole 'race thing' currently. The true race as stated by nearly everyone starts with NiM TFB. Hopefully they don't take down servers then either! xD