As Makeb will never get released ... how will I get my money back

[Sithlord_Dooku]

Today I saw that the european CMs got fired.

As I am sure that a great company, as EA is, has a lot of respect for theire european comunity and paying customers, the only explanation for this drastical step, I can think of, is that they are running out of money and will not be able to hold TOR much longer.

 

As this probably means "Makeb" will never get released, I want to ask how I will get the money back, I paid for it.

[Darth_Halford]

you pay for the game and the content that is available to you at the time that you're playing it and nothing beyond. Since you didn't pay for Makeb specifically, how do you get your money back?

[Sithlord_Dooku]

Since you didn't pay for Makeb specifically,

 

http://www.swtor.com/rothc

[Rafaman]

Err... you are jumping the gun just a little bit aren't you?

 

This reminds me of the posts almost a year to the day when peeps were asserting that this game wouldn't last a year.

[MoobooMagoo]

Drastical is not a word.

[Ithilwen]

Today I saw that the european CMs got fired.

As I am sure that a great company, as EA is, has a lot of respect for theire european comunity and paying customers, the only explanation for this drastical step, I can think of, is that they are running out of money and will not be able to hold TOR much longer.

 

As this probably means "Makeb" will never get released, I want to ask how I will get the money back, I paid for it.

 

If that's the case, where is all the money they're making from Cartel Coins going?

It's more likely that they figured they would have more profit if they didn't have to pay those extra two staff members (since aparently the German and French forums aren't as active as our one)

[Banegio]

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/features/feature-0008-getting-your-money-back

 

Disappointed by a product or service you’ve paid for? The FTC has tips to help you get your money back. You can use our sample complaint letter to ask the seller or manufacturer for a refund, get tips and strategies for making your case, and find organizations that may be able to help. Don’t be fooled by scammers who promise to get your money back for a fee.

 

You’ll also find information about the FTC’s refund program. The FTC sues companies that make deceptive claims about their products and services. These lawsuits sometimes result in refunds for the people affected.

[MoobooMagoo]

If that's the case, where is all the money they're making from Cartel Coins going?

It's more likely that they figured they would have more profit if they didn't have to pay those extra two staff members (since aparently the German and French forums aren't as active as our one)

 

Yeah this is actually one of EA's more successful titles. If I remember the last earnings report correctly they said one of the areas making the most money was digital sales or something and TOR was one of the highest earners in that category.

 

The internet is currently on some sort of nostalgia fueled rampage against Bioware so no one realizes that a LOT of people play and enjoy this game.

[sharpenedstick]

Err... you are jumping the gun just a little bit aren't you?

 

This reminds me of the posts almost a year to the day when peeps were asserting that this game wouldn't last a year.

 

It wouldn't have, if it didn't go F2P. Remember, that happened in less than a year.

[Kahotep]

It wouldn't have, if it didn't go F2P. Remember, that happened in less than a year.

 

I think you're behind the times. There has been a shift in gaming culture in the last few years. Gaming is more mainstream and more casual than ever before and free to play is the new normal.

 

SWTOR is not the only MMO which went free to play last year and there are several new MMOs in development which are planning to launch as free to play (and others with have officially not yet decided on their payment model). If fact, how many MMOs actually still require a subscription? Not many.

 

So while it's true that going f2p used to be seen as an admission of defeat, that's no longer the case. Unless you're an MMO with insanely high player numbers (like WoW) or one with very cheap development costs (like Eve), then f2p is the most financially successful payment model these days.

[Icebergy]

You know what happens when you assume...

[x_Boots_x]

I think you're behind the times. There has been a shift in gaming culture in the last few years. Gaming is more mainstream and more casual than ever before and free to play is the new normal.

 

SWTOR is not the only MMO which went free to play last year and there are several new MMOs in development which are planning to launch as free to play (and others with have officially not yet decided on their payment model). If fact, how many MMOs actually still require a subscription? Not many.

 

So while it's true that going f2p used to be seen as an admission of defeat, that's no longer the case. Unless you're an MMO with insanely high player numbers (like WoW) or one with very cheap development costs (like Eve), then f2p is the most financially successful payment model these days.

 

As much as I'm sure you believe the world to be made of marshmallows and joy, I can assure you that 75% sub loss, gutting the majority of the SWTOR staff and being forced to go FTP wasn't exactly a planned turn of events for Bioware, that only happens if you screwed up pretty bad, anything short of a huge IPO like Star Wars and this game would have been gone by now, and that's saying a lot considering all the time and money spent on development.

 

Luckily for us this IS Star Wars and they do have a large amount of money invested before they would "cut their losses", so we have a game for a long time to come, hopefully under better management than we've had.

[Asuka]

Hybrid is far more lucrative than a straight up subscription model. They get far more money out of those f2p people who have to pay weekly for their space passes and daily xp boosts etc.... It was just a smart business decision. Edited February 28, 2013 by Asuka

[Asuka]

, I can assure you that 75% sub loss, gutting the majority of the SWTOR staff

 

Oh really? BW never revealed subscription info to begin with and there are always some layoffs and moving around to other projects after an MMO launch but please show some ironclad numbers.

[LordRahlik]

As much as I'm sure you believe the world to be made of marshmallows and joy, I can assure you that 75% sub loss, gutting the majority of the SWTOR staff and being forced to go FTP wasn't exactly a planned turn of events for Bioware, that only happens if you screwed up pretty bad, anything short of a huge IPO like Star Wars and this game would have been gone by now, and that's saying a lot considering all the time and money spent on development.

 

Luckily for us this IS Star Wars and they do have a large amount of money invested before they would "cut their losses", so we have a game for a long time to come, hopefully under better management than we've had.

 

All MMO have a peak just when released. That is natural. If you peak at say 2 million subscribers and the game is a HUGE mega hit, you still would only have like 1.6 million after a while. Many people are very interested in trying new thing but leave as soon as they have tried it for a while.

 

Now, on to SWToR. As far as I know they peaked at 2.1 million subscriber.

Today they have 1.2 million last count. How is that 75% subscribtion loss? Yes, they WERE down at around 600.000 subscribers before f2p, but now they have doubled that number.

Also - if they have around 30.000 subscribers they are still making money, so even if the 1.2 million is too high and the truth is somewhere between 600k and 1.2 million it's still a HUGE cash cow. Add CS on top of that and you could probably round upwards to an income as if they have 5 million subscribers.

If one person buys the 5500 CC pack that's the same as 3 subscriptions for 1 month. And I can assure you that several 5500 CC packs are sold EACH DAY.

 

For BW this game is a HUGE success and they are raking in money by the bucket loads.

 

And yes, the numbers above are paying subscribers. Not f2p, those are on top of those numbers.

[chuixupu]

Of course Makeb is going to be released.

[dodnet]

Of course Makeb is going to be released.

 

Yeah... soon ahahahahahaha

[ConradLionhart]

You probably should apply for a jumping competition because the way you jump to conclusions is incredible.

 

Firing of European CMs mean Makeb will never be released? These people are only forum community managers. They're not even in charge of game development. If fact, you should have been MORE worried when Daniel Erickson, Georg Zoeller and others, who were the faces during the guild summit, have left the company.

Edited February 28, 2013 by ConradLionhart

[sharpenedstick]

I think you're behind the times. There has been a shift in gaming culture in the last few years. Gaming is more mainstream and more casual than ever before and free to play is the new normal.

 

SWTOR is not the only MMO which went free to play last year and there are several new MMOs in development which are planning to launch as free to play (and others with have officially not yet decided on their payment model). If fact, how many MMOs actually still require a subscription? Not many.

 

So while it's true that going f2p used to be seen as an admission of defeat, that's no longer the case. Unless you're an MMO with insanely high player numbers (like WoW) or one with very cheap development costs (like Eve), then f2p is the most financially successful payment model these days.

 

Fanboi juice must be wonderful.

 

F2P saved the game and it presented EAware with an alternative earning model that has permitted SWTOR to continue, and even to thrive. But this was not planned as a F2P game. F2P is an admission of defeat for a game that was expected to be a WoW-killer. Let there be no mistake here. SWTOR failed as a subscription based game. "TORTANIC" may be inflammatory, but it's not far off, given EA's hype and the extremely high budget.

 

I am glad that SWTOR is on a stable financial footing. I like that because of F2P we're going to see more content, both paid gated (cartel market) and "free" content releases. But I don't let my enjoyment of SWTOR blind me to reality.

 

F2P saved what was a terrible situation. You guys don't seem to understand just how embarrassing it is to fail with one of the world's most powerful IP licenses. From one of the largest gaming companies. With a budget that shatters previous records.

 

SWTOR was judged on its merits as a subscription game and it was found wanting. F2P is a model by which people can be induced to play at price points that are more acceptable to them, ranging from zero to potentially hundreds of dollars more than a sub would ever be. This revenue source is a good thing for the game, and I'm glad they have it.

 

But I don't pretend that F2P was THE PLAN.

Edited February 28, 2013 by sharpenedstick

[Devlonir]

As much as I'm sure you believe the world to be made of marshmallows and joy, I can assure you that 75% sub loss, gutting the majority of the SWTOR staff and being forced to go FTP wasn't exactly a planned turn of events for Bioware, that only happens if you screwed up pretty bad, ...

 

According to that definition, ever MMO, no wait, every GAME in history has been screwed up pretty bad.

I can tell you one very simple and very true fact: More than 75% of the players that tried WoW have quit the game.

 

People try things out, and then leave. Especially nowadays people do that a lot more. There is less brand loyalty nowadays because there are a lot more good brands to choose from. People pick and choose and prefer to not stick around.

 

Also, F2P is the future of gaming because, frankly, it gives people a choice to spend more on their hobby if they want to. People who believe its just a one time box sales or subscription and you should then get everything simply do not understand how actual markets work. By having the option to spend more money than this 'entry fee', you give people the chance to pay more. How do you think Gold Farming exists? There are people with more disposable income, than time, that prefer to pay their disposable income for ingame currency.

Same thing goes for cool outfits, cool mounts, etc.. Some have time, and prefer to spend that. Others have money, and prefer to spend that.

 

In the end, it is only good for a company to be able to offer more services or goods for more money. People who can and want to spend it, have the opportunity to. If you only have a box or sub, people can't spend more even if they wanted to. And you know the best part? People become more brand loyal when they spent more money on a brand. So the brand loyalty that is less present because of the amount of options, becomes more present once people invested more of their money into a brand. Good example of that: Apple customers. The products are not all best-in-business in their branch. But the customers are brand loyal because, in part, they already invested so much in the product line.

 

Finally, let's not forget one important aspect which also sped up TOR's decision to go F2P: EA was already setting up micro transactions in all their major titles. They were already, strategically, going for the F2P model on more and more of their products. Despite them seeing that this was the future of payment models for gaming, they allowed Bioware to launch with a subscription and box price model, the old MMO payment model. When that model was proven to be a financial failure, the decision was quickly made to simply put TOR into the same structure as every other game: Allow people to spend more, if they want to.

And it is a good thing that it was done quickly, because there is no denying it that F2P made the game come to life again in many aspects. Both the financial numbers, as the activity proove this.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Devlonir

[Devlonir]

But I don't pretend that F2P was THE PLAN.

I agree, it wasn't the plan for Bioware.

But considering the corperate direction EA is taking on the matter, and already was before launch, I actually think it was the plan for EA.

 

They just gave Bioware a chance to prove it didn't have to be F2P. And Bioware wasn't able to prove it. The fact that the conversion was done so quickly and so thoroughly points to the real possibility that some people were already planning for/working on that contingency though.

[sharpenedstick]

I agree, it wasn't the plan for Bioware.

But considering the corperate direction EA is taking on the matter, and already was before launch, I actually think it was the plan for EA.

 

They just gave Bioware a chance to prove it didn't have to be F2P. And Bioware wasn't able to prove it. The fact that the conversion was done so quickly and so thoroughly points to the real possibility that some people were already planning for/working on that contingency though.

 

I don't think it was EA's plan either. At least not their Plan A. Did they have it in mind as a Plan B? Maybe. Especially because, as you've noted, they were looking at microtransactions in other games anyway.

 

Why don't I think it was EA's plan? We have EA on record claiming SWTOR was going to reach a wider audience than WoW, and that they were gunning for the number one spot in the MMO market. They

 

(See this thread, around page 3 and on for discussion and links to sources)

 

I think EA expected that, with Bioware's track record of single player game success, the huge budget for SWTOR, and the power of the Star Wars license, that they would have an unstoppable product. Unfortunately what they ultimately produced did not succeed in the subscription MMO market.

 

F2P changed all that, and I'm glad. We went from a game that was collapsing to one that is expanding, and that's good.

[chuixupu]

You probably should apply for a jumping competition because the way you jump to conclusions is incredible.

 

Firing of European CMs mean Makeb will never be released? These people are only forum community managers. They're not even in charge of game development. If fact, you should have been MORE worried when Daniel Erickson, Georg Zoeller and others, who were the faces during the guild summit, have left the company.

 

Don't go opening old wounds, now. Alex Freed hurt the most since this game practically IS the IA story for me, but I moved on.

 

But, even if it's not as big of a deal, I think there is a particular message that is sent out to fans when their singular "mouthpiece" is removed. It seems to say "communicating with you isn't that important to us". We on the English speaking side still have Eric, Amber and Courtney, at least, what do the German and French speakers have? Technically they have them as well, but they can't really communicate directly.

Edited February 28, 2013 by chuixupu

[Devlonir]

I don't think it was EA's plan either. At least not their Plan A. Did they have it in mind as a Plan B? Maybe. Especially because, as you've noted, they were looking at microtransactions in other games anyway.

 

Why don't I think it was EA's plan? We have EA on record claiming SWTOR was going to reach a wider audience than WoW, and that they were gunning for the number one spot in the MMO market. They

 

(See this thread, around page 3 and on for discussion and links to sources)

 

I think EA expected that, with Bioware's track record of single player game success, the huge budget for SWTOR, and the power of the Star Wars license, that they would have an unstoppable product. Unfortunately what they ultimately produced did not succeed in the subscription MMO market.

 

F2P changed all that, and I'm glad. We went from a game that was collapsing to one that is expanding, and that's good.

 

Agreed, my point was merely a possiblity. I still do think it was EA's plan A, but the Doctors convinced them to try the sub model first. But that is not based on any facts really, as nobody knows exactly what gets discussed in the board rooms.

 

I mean, even the wider audience quote can be a reference to actually wanting more than 1 payment model. If you consider that similar wordings are also used now when talking about going more towards F2P games and micro transactions in their games.

 

Though I do agree that this game becoming Subscription had everything to do with Bioware's track record. They thought the brand would pull in Bioware fans from their single player RPG's as well. I believe they thought those fans would be a lot more, than they actually were.

 

When push comes to shove, Bioware/EA, for whatever reason, decided to try a subscription based model in a world where years of releasing new sub-based games proved that WoW's rise was nothing but a one time 'all stars are alligned' kind of thing. They still decided to bet on the sub horse, and lost.

 

I'm also glad the decision to go F2P was made, and that it was made quickly and effectively. Much better to do this, then to hold onto being a sub based game and dying a slow, painful death. Like so many other games.

[ConradLionhart]

Don't go opening old wounds, now. Alex Freed hurt the most since this game practically IS the IA story for me, but I moved on.

 

But, even if it's not as big of a deal, I think there is a particular message that is sent out to fans when their singular "mouthpiece" is removed. It seems to say "communicating with you isn't that important to us". We on the English speaking side still have Eric, Amber and Courtney, at least, what do the German and French speakers have? Technically they have them as well, but they can't really communicate directly.

 

Yes of course, but, to say that because they don't want to communicate with the european players, that means they will deny themselves money by never releasing Makeb, is seriously a stretch. I don't know how in the world the OP connected those 2 dots.

 

You're unhappy that your CMs got fired? That is a perfectly understandable anger. But I just don't know how that means Makeb will never be released.