DPS operatives in 2.0

[NoTomorrow]

I guess I really don't want a massive amount of players to reroll lethality cuz of the buffs. I despise playing Fotm specs regardless of whether I respecced/rerolled to it.

 

I don't know about operatives, but Sniper lethality despite all the buffs, including survivability will not be replacing MM. It's still a vulnerable spec versus burst DPS. I get to kill tanks with it, but I am becoming vulnerable to marauders, espcially carange and rage, something MM can handle a lot better.

 

I don't think we really need 5 targets, I can give up on that. May be even 10 energy cost. But i would certianly like to have it on maximum 6s CD, as 12 is too much for allowing me to target switch with lethality. (which is quite damn slow on live now).

 

BTW, kudos for managing to play the spec, i for one cannot play it. Probably been spoiled by sniper leth with all its comfort of 35m Cull and no need for TA. When i see that i need to knife somebody before culling, i lose all the motivation to play it.

Edited February 25, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[POPsi]

I still think that in pvp concealment will be more viable simply due to the burst they have. They are still able to ninja a node faster than a lethality. In overall dps, lethality of course will wipe the floor with concealment

[Ravashakk]

I don't know about operatives, but Sniper lethality despite all the buffs, including survivability will not be replacing MM. It's still a vulnerable spec versus burst DPS. I get to kill tanks with it, but I am becoming vulnerable to marauders, espcially carange and rage, something MM can handle a lot better.

 

I don't think we really need 5 targets, I can give up on that. May be even 10 energy cost. But i would certianly like to have it on maximum 6s CD, as 12 is too much for allowing me to target switch with lethality. (which is quite damn slow on live now).

 

BTW, kudos for managing to play the spec, i for one cannot play it. Probably been spoiled by sniper leth with all its comfort of 35m Cull and no need for TA. When i see that i need to knife somebody before culling, i lose all the motivation to play it.

 

It is really the combination of all the changes not each individual change. All of this is speculation at this point due to lack of testing and it not being live yet. We aren't lvl 55 with 55 gear so maybe it won't wont be op by comparison to the strengths of other classes.

 

My concern is that the spec is going to be strong in every situation. Average players will be strong, great players will devour teams.

[Ravashakk]

I still think that in pvp concealment will be more viable simply due to the burst they have. They are still able to ninja a node faster than a lethality. In overall dps, lethality of course will wipe the floor with concealment

 

Biggest flaw that most concealment ops have in their logic. Contrary to popular belief, your burst is NOT higher than lethality. Your opener, and biggest burst hits for less than cull. It requires you be in stealth and behind the target. Also has a cooldown. With fatality and stim boost you could see 4 culls in 4 gcds. Even non crits would be around 3k a pop.

 

Ninja node generally means capping it with ppl present. In that case, conceal really has very little over leth when it comes to ninjaing nodes. Now if you mean killing someone and capping quickly, sure conceals burst is front loaded and might pull ahead. Lethality can now setup their burst inside of a sap. Sap > dart > grenade > shiv > wb > stim boost + cull > cull > ep + cull. Or you could open with hs, shiv, wb, flash bang. Dot em up, ep, cull, stim boost then double cull.

Not really a lot more time spent in gcds compared to concealment. It will boil down to the player not the spec.

[ktkenshinx]

Biggest flaw that most concealment ops have in their logic. Contrary to popular belief, your burst is NOT higher than lethality. Your opener, and biggest burst hits for less than cull. It requires you be in stealth and behind the target. Also has a cooldown. With fatality and stim boost you could see 4 culls in 4 gcds. Even non crits would be around 3k a pop.

Well, in all fairness, Scrappers will always have the Alacrity edge on Lethality (even if it is admittedly a slight edge); 6% bonus Alacrity from Rolling Punches will always keep them ahead of a Lethality player assuming they are identically geared. That puts Scrappers 6% of a GCD ahead of Lethality in every fight, amounting to roughly .10 seconds. Similarly, the whole "in stealth and behind the target" thing is no less/more of a problem than the fact that Lethality is dependent on DOTs being present on your target and not being cleansed.

Ninja node generally means capping it with ppl present. In that case, conceal really has very little over leth when it comes to ninjaing nodes. Now if you mean killing someone and capping quickly, sure conceals burst is front loaded and might pull ahead. Lethality can now setup their burst inside of a sap. Sap > dart > grenade > shiv > wb > stim boost + cull > cull > ep + cull. Or you could open with hs, shiv, wb, flash bang. Dot em up, ep, cull, stim boost then double cull.

Not really a lot more time spent in gcds compared to concealment. It will boil down to the player not the spec.

Again, I am pretty sure that the opener of Scrappers still hits harder over those early seconds. Even just comparing the first 9 CDs (9 being the number of Lethality CDs you showed above), SF+FR > BW > DK > SC > BB+FR > SP > SP > BW > SP is probably going to be more burst than the Lethality rotation. I will parse the numbers in identical gear later today after work, but the end result is probably going to be in favor of the Scrapper.

 

Of course, that's just frontloaded burst from an opener. Lethality is certainly capable of putting out burst damage in a fight itself after stealth is broken; Cull hits like a truck, and everyone should know it. But in those first node-capping seconds, I'd rather have the Scrapper burst.

[Ravashakk]

Well, in all fairness, Scrappers will always have the Alacrity edge on Lethality (even if it is admittedly a slight edge); 6% bonus Alacrity from Rolling Punches will always keep them ahead of a Lethality player assuming they are identically geared. That puts Scrappers 6% of a GCD ahead of Lethality in every fight, amounting to roughly .10 seconds. Similarly, the whole "in stealth and behind the target" thing is no less/more of a problem than the fact that Lethality is dependent on DOTs being present on your target and not being cleansed.

 

Again, I am pretty sure that the opener of Scrappers still hits harder over those early seconds. Even just comparing the first 9 CDs (9 being the number of Lethality CDs you showed above), SF+FR > BW > DK > SC > BB+FR > SP > SP > BW > SP is probably going to be more burst than the Lethality rotation. I will parse the numbers in identical gear later today after work, but the end result is probably going to be in favor of the Scrapper.

 

Of course, that's just frontloaded burst from an opener. Lethality is certainly capable of putting out burst damage in a fight itself after stealth is broken; Cull hits like a truck, and everyone should know it. But in those first node-capping seconds, I'd rather have the Scrapper burst.

 

So you think being in stealth and behind your target is no more or less of a problem than having dots on a target? Even against a class that can cleanse they still have to do it twice. Also using gcds to do so. With the changes, lethality can instantly apply both dots whenever they want. Energy isn't even a big concern with it.

 

As for the burst, it depends on what u consider burst to be. Personally I go with the time from when dmg occurs to when the dmg ends. For instance, a guy that can open on someone and kill them in 6 seconds is less bursty than the guy that really doesn't do much dmg for 10 secs then bam, takes out 90% of their health in a global. Some use that method while others prefer the total time from engaging to time of death.

 

I will concede that conceal on average might take someone out faster from time of engagement till death, because most of their burst dmg isn't as heavily rng based. In the extreme, lethality pulls ahead (triple cull crits etc). When talking about burst dmg between any two points in time (most dmg done in shortest period) lethality will win outside of all non crits.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Ravashakk

[ktkenshinx]

So you think being in stealth and behind your target is no more or less of a problem than having dots on a target? Even against a class that can cleanse they still have to do it twice. Also using gcds to do so. With the changes, lethality can instantly apply both dots whenever they want. Energy isn't even a big concern with it.

It has never been a problem for me. I almost always go for the lesser-guarded node in Voidstar, Civil War, and Novare, which routinely has 1-2 defenders in a pug, or 2 defenders against a better team. In that situation, you will never need more than 2 stealths to end the fight (1 from opening and 1 from disappearing act), and if you do, you weren't going to win it in time anyway. I agree that Lethality is better at the main node fight or in larger battles, but even there, that was before 2.0 fixed the Scrapper sustained damage problems.

As for the burst, it depends on what u consider burst to be. Personally I go with the time from when dmg occurs to when the dmg ends. For instance, a guy that can open on someone and kill them in 6 seconds is less bursty than the guy that really doesn't do much dmg for 10 secs then bam, takes out 90% of their health in a global. Some use that method while others prefer the total time from engaging to time of death.

For me, I want to kill the node defenders as quickly as possible. In a standard side-node 2v2, me and whoever my partner is need to drop the target as quickly as possible to get the node before the rotation. Even at a main fight, especially on a map like Voidstar with timed respawns, I want to be able to kill my target as quickly as possible after the Defender door opens. This sends them back upstairs for the longest amount of time.

 

There are situations where you wouldn't need the extra seconds from a frontloaded burst kill. But in every WZ except Huttball, that quick kill is going to more consistently earn you the objective.

Edited February 25, 2013 by ktkenshinx

[AngelofCain]

I tried lethality on the pts, it did surprise me for some of the aspects of the cull dmg, but... I have still yet to hit 7k opener with lethality, or mid lethality rotation.

 

Like I said, Concealment for me, but lethality for others.

[Ravashakk]

It has never been a problem for me. I almost always go for the lesser-guarded node in Voidstar, Civil War, and Novare, which routinely has 1-2 defenders in a pug, or 2 defenders against a better team. In that situation, you will never need more than 2 stealths to end the fight (1 from opening and 1 from disappearing act), and if you do, you weren't going to win it in time anyway. I agree that Lethality is better at the main node fight or in larger battles, but even there, that was before 2.0 fixed the Scrapper sustained damage problems.

 

For me, I want to kill the node defenders as quickly as possible. In a standard side-node 2v2, me and whoever my partner is need to drop the target as quickly as possible to get the node before the rotation. Even at a main fight, especially on a map like Voidstar with timed respawns, I want to be able to kill my target as quickly as possible after the Defender door opens. This sends them back upstairs for the longest amount of time.

 

There are situations where you wouldn't need the extra seconds from a frontloaded burst kill. But in every WZ except Huttball, that quick kill is going to more consistently earn you the objective.

 

Just going to agree to disagree. You are arguing that you using one of your defensive cooldowns for offense to get a second SF somehow is comparable to cull spam.

 

I understand you're a huge scrapper fanboy, and I'll respect you if you never respec based on strength of another spec. I have seen the changes to both specs and I think lethality will pull way ahead. The main reason someone would rather have conceal will be because of cc breaking will still occur with lethality. Other than that it will be about the player not the spec.

[Ravashakk]

I tried lethality on the pts, it did surprise me for some of the aspects of the cull dmg, but... I have still yet to hit 7k opener with lethality, or mid lethality rotation.

 

Like I said, Concealment for me, but lethality for others.

 

Some ppl just aren't meant to play certain specs.

And if you're referring to you hitting a 7k hs, I'd like to see the buffs you had and the bad gear your opponent had. The highest I ever saw in concealment was lower to mid 6k's. Average was 4.7-5.8k I'd say.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Ravashakk

[AngelofCain]

personally I am looking forward to seeing more lethality brethren in warzones. I agree with the changes do look sexy as lethality, unfortunatly I don't have the talent or patience to learn the specc. I tried it a few times in live and while I understood the rotation, it was a survivablity issue for me. Maybe it's cause of the infamy that comes from being a concealment op, but I just would get steam rolled cause of the hate.

 

With a healer and guard Lethality ops will be king ops, but without them I personally prefer the concealment op style over it.

 

Personal preference vs. playstyle in the end.

 

but do we really have to measure "speccs"? Why can't we all agree that each of us is strong and kill the shiny batstick wielders and their flaming counterparts, and find the best ways to kill them instead of each other.

[AngelofCain]

Some ppl just aren't meant to play certain specs.

And if you're referring to you hitting a 7k hs, I'd like to see the buffs you had and the bad gear your opponent had. The highest I ever saw in concealment was lower to mid 6k's. Average was 4.7-5.8k I'd say.

 

Oh I know it was a crap geared 10k sorc on live. But I also hit a 7.4k on pts in some duels with the buffs to concealment. just stim, TA, and my self buffed (crit,sorc,warrior).

 

I was just stating that lethality isn't for me.

[ktkenshinx]

Just going to agree to disagree. You are arguing that you using one of your defensive cooldowns for offense to get a second SF somehow is comparable to cull spam.

I said that you would "never need" more than 2 stealths to take a side node. I am suggesting that in the absolute worst case scenario you might need the second stealth, especially in a 1v2 or an extremely tight 2v2. But in the vast, vast majority of situations, the first opener is more than enough.

I understand you're a huge scrapper fanboy, and I'll respect you if you never respec based on strength of another spec. I have seen the changes to both specs and I think lethality will pull way ahead. The main reason someone would rather have conceal will be because of cc breaking will still occur with lethality. Other than that it will be about the player not the spec.

You seem like a cool dude on these forums, so I am going to assume that you didn't mean anything derogatory with the use of "fanboy" here, even though it's a traditionally negative term.

 

This is also where I disagree with you (and maybe Hallow, but it's unclear based on his post). I DO think that Lethality is objectively better at Scrapper in some roles, and that Scrappers is objectively better than Lethality at others. In those roles, it will not come down to the player but will rather come down to the spec. Even generally, some specs have objective strengths over others; I would never send a Tank Jugg to take a side node, for example; he would just take too long to kill the enemy. Similarly, I wouldn't guard a side node with a lone Commando or Gunslinger, because those classes are absurdly vulnerable to stealthers.

 

So first, Lethality objective strengths. As I said before, I agree that Lethality is going to be better in main battle fights. I think this is a strength independent of players, and you seem to agree yourself. Lethality is objectively better at pressuring healers, managing the energy/damage output (even after 2.0 changes to Scrappers), dividing high damage across a team, and bursting on command (instead of bursting from the much more conditional stealth and erratic crit chance).

 

But on the side node fight, where time is more important, Scrappers/Concealment are going to retain an objective advantage over Lethality. They have better overall CC to stop enemy kiting and end a fight quickly, better anti-stealth capabilities, and higher/faster frontloaded burst.

 

In case this is unclear (And it can often be unclear on forums), I am not trying to turn this into a personal argument. This is just the way the numbers seem to be pointing.

[MobiusZero]

I guess I really don't want a massive amount of players to reroll lethality cuz of the buffs. I despise playing Fotm specs regardless of whether I respecced/rerolled to it.

 

This basically sums up my feelings!

 

I've been playing Lethality for over a year, back before we even had Lingering Toxins, and still loved it!

 

If it becomes FoTM, I might actually consider quitting, crazy at it sounds to some. You'd think I'd be happy to have all these changes, lol.

 

I guess we'll have to see how things go. Maybe Concealment will still be more popular.

 

But geez, I'm going to be unkillable after 2.0. I hardly ever die, as it is!

[Ravashakk]

I said that you would "never need" more than 2 stealths to take a side node. I am suggesting that in the absolute worst case scenario you might need the second stealth, especially in a 1v2 or an extremely tight 2v2. But in the vast, vast majority of situations, the first opener is more than enough.

 

You seem like a cool dude on these forums, so I am going to assume that you didn't mean anything derogatory with the use of "fanboy" here, even though it's a traditionally negative term.

 

This is also where I disagree with you (and maybe Hallow, but it's unclear based on his post). I DO think that Lethality is objectively better at Scrapper in some roles, and that Scrappers is objectively better than Lethality at others. In those roles, it will not come down to the player but will rather come down to the spec. Even generally, some specs have objective strengths over others; I would never send a Tank Jugg to take a side node, for example; he would just take too long to kill the enemy. Similarly, I wouldn't guard a side node with a lone Commando or Gunslinger, because those classes are absurdly vulnerable to stealthers.

 

So first, Lethality objective strengths. As I said before, I agree that Lethality is going to be better in main battle fights. I think this is a strength independent of players, and you seem to agree yourself. Lethality is objectively better at pressuring healers, managing the energy/damage output (even after 2.0 changes to Scrappers), dividing high damage across a team, and bursting on command (instead of bursting from the much more conditional stealth and erratic crit chance).

 

But on the side node fight, where time is more important, Scrappers/Concealment are going to retain an objective advantage over Lethality. They have better overall CC to stop enemy kiting and end a fight quickly, better anti-stealth capabilities, and higher/faster frontloaded burst.

 

In case this is unclear (And it can often be unclear on forums), I am not trying to turn this into a personal argument. This is just the way the numbers seem to be pointing.

 

I merely corrected someone that said that concealment was measurably better at "ninjaing" nodes and they have better burst. You have a habit of taking it personally and turning it into class viability instead of focusing on the topic at hand....in this case it was me debunking what that guy said.

 

Ie show me your 13-15k burst in 2 gcds or less, or how concealment is somehow better equipped to cc cap a node over lethality. Do not talk about 1v1 viability or who is better in the fray or who is more widely accepted on ranked teams. That was not what was being discussed.

 

The fanboy comment was a light hearted jab not to be taken personally, because I like you.

[ktkenshinx]

I merely corrected someone that said that concealment was measurably better at "ninjaing" nodes and they have better burst. You have a habit of taking it personally and turning it into class viability instead of focusing on the topic at hand....in this case it was me debunking what that guy said.

Well, the poster you responded to was himself the one who originally brought "class viability" into the argument. It wasn't me. (Emphasis added below). I was/am defending the underlying logic of that guy's arguments.

I still think that in pvp concealment will be more viable simply due to the burst they have. They are still able to ninja a node faster than a lethality. In overall dps, lethality of course will wipe the floor with concealment

It is very much a question of class viability, but I do not take the argument personally. I have been nothing but academic in my discussion about this.

Ie show me your 13-15k burst in 2 gcds or less, or how concealment is somehow better equipped to cc cap a node over lethality. Do not talk about 1v1 viability or who is better in the fray or who is more widely accepted on ranked teams. That was not what was being discussed.

Again, the guy you responded to said that "In overall dps, lethality of course will wipe the floor with concealment". This pretty clearly referred to in-the-fray fights in my mind, so I was just acknowledging his own point.

 

Also, as far as I can tell, this difference between burst/sustained/melee/side node fights is very much what is being discussed. You yourself mentioned that:

I have seen the changes to both specs and I think lethality will pull way ahead.

And that is the point I am disagreeing with, at least in regards to side node fights. In the main melee, Lethality will pull ahead in 2.0. On the side node, it will still be Scrappers.

The fanboy comment was a light hearted jab not to be taken personally, because I like you.

In that case, yes, I am definitely a Scrapper fanboy. Gogo shotguns.

Edited February 25, 2013 by ktkenshinx

[Fallenturtle]

I hate to say it.. but I agree with neb on his assessments on lethality 2.0.. Never thought i'd hear those words coming out of my mouth...

 

Unable to test it in a warzone due to the bolster bug, I think lethality will be better than my precious concealment *sniff*

 

My reasoning is this. Culls main damage is internal.. Shields do not absorb internal damage where as shields now absorb force and tech attacks. using the opening rotation stated by neb (aka Ravashakk) it's feesable to actually kill the node guarder before his buddys have a chance to react. Using stock pve gear on the test server, I was seeing 5k culls and 2-3k ticks with the internal portions of the dots. That's 9-11k for one cull against a level 55 operations dummy!

Plus against the massive stuns everyone uses these days, your dots are still ticking while your standing there being stunned to death.

 

I'm not a lethality fan boy, and I loved playing it before lingering toxins and before it became the "dot everyone and hide to get massive numbers" but the way that concealment is now on the test server, I wouldn't want to take it into a warzone due to the shielding changes. sure you can probably hit a hidden strike for 5-6k now, but more than half of that damage will be absorbed while your target just laughs at you.

 

We'll see on the next sweep what they do.

[Ravashakk]

Well, the poster you responded to was himself the one who originally brought "class viability" into the argument. It wasn't me. (Emphasis added below). I was/am defending the underlying logic of that guy's arguments.

 

It is very much a question of class viability, but I do not take the argument personally. I have been nothing but academic in my discussion about this.

 

Again, the guy you responded to said that "In overall dps, lethality of course will wipe the floor with concealment". This pretty clearly referred to in-the-fray fights in my mind, so I was just acknowledging his own point.

 

Also, as far as I can tell, this difference between burst/sustained/melee/side node fights is very much what is being discussed. You yourself mentioned that:

 

And that is the point I am disagreeing with, at least in regards to side node fights. In the main melee, Lethality will pull ahead in 2.0. On the side node, it will still be Scrappers.

 

In that case, yes, I am definitely a Scrapper fanboy. Gogo shotguns.

 

He said more viable simply to better burst and better node ninjaing capability. I focused on the incorrect portion of his statement. I wasn't arguing the viability portion, but rather the reasons he thinks they will be viable.

 

Just like if he said concealment will have more viability since it has higher dot dmg. He might be right on the viability argument, but not for the reason he stated.

[Ravashakk]

I hate to say it.. but I agree with neb on his assessments on lethality 2.0.. Never thought i'd hear those words coming out of my mouth...

 

Unable to test it in a warzone due to the bolster bug, I think lethality will be better than my precious concealment *sniff*

 

My reasoning is this. Culls main damage is internal.. Shields do not absorb internal damage where as shields now absorb force and tech attacks. using the opening rotation stated by neb (aka Ravashakk) it's feesable to actually kill the node guarder before his buddys have a chance to react. Using stock pve gear on the test server, I was seeing 5k culls and 2-3k ticks with the internal portions of the dots. That's 9-11k for one cull against a level 55 operations dummy!

Plus against the massive stuns everyone uses these days, your dots are still ticking while your standing there being stunned to death.

 

I'm not a lethality fan boy, and I loved playing it before lingering toxins and before it became the "dot everyone and hide to get massive numbers" but the way that concealment is now on the test server, I wouldn't want to take it into a warzone due to the shielding changes. sure you can probably hit a hidden strike for 5-6k now, but more than half of that damage will be absorbed while your target just laughs at you.

 

We'll see on the next sweep what they do.

 

Why would you hate to agree with the voice of reason? ;-)

[AngelofCain]

/popcorn.

 

Disagree, agree it's whatever from my point of view. play what you love, and if you turn what you love into batman then be batman.

[NoTomorrow]

Ravashakk, you are fighting in 2.0 a lethality sniper of equal skill. Who will win? And in what circumstance the sniper would have an edge over you?

[Ravashakk]

Ravashakk, you are fighting in 2.0 a lethality sniper of equal skill. Who will win? And in what circumstance the sniper would have an edge over you?

 

Well I haven't really looked at sniper changes nor have I played 2.0 myself but assuming gear is not a variable, then LoS will be the biggest determining factor of the outcome. If the sniper can keep up with me on dmg, then me being able to Los/cc and heal up will be what causes me to win. Even without Los being able to do a few exfiltrates away to his one should give me some breathing room and time to reset the fight. I shouldn't have to though if I get the opener.

 

Also I can cleanse his dots away without blowing a dcd.

 

The sniper would have to either severely outgear me, be much more skilled at his class to overcome the advantages my class has over his, or be in the wide open.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Ravashakk

[MobiusZero]

Ravashakk, you are fighting in 2.0 a lethality sniper of equal skill. Who will win? And in what circumstance the sniper would have an edge over you?

 

If the Operative opens from stealth, Operative wins.

 

The circumstance where sniper has an edge? Hmm, honestly, I fear snipers less than any class in the game. A stationary turret has one huge weakness - Walls!!

 

But our evasion is far more effective than theirs, in a toe to toe fight, because our damage is mostly yellow, yet they do a lot of white. And it lasts a second longer now.

 

With hidden strike + shiv, you have a very high chance of chaining 3 Culls. The sniper Cull is on a CD, and does half the damage of ours (a little less than half, actually.). DoT's are cleansed with Toxic scan and/or evasion. Also, with counterstrike trained, you can cleanse all of their slows. And if they Exfiltrate and try to escape, we do the same; ours is shorter, but we can sever tendon/nade, or double exfiltrate if needed.

 

Plus, in a 1v1, we can flash bang and heal up, but they can't. Or we can LoS and heal (and if they chase, maybe even get a debilitate in.).

Edited February 25, 2013 by MobiusZero

[Syberduh]

2265 on the ship ops dummy. I imagine that's between 2000 and 2150 on the fleet dummy. Quite difficult to get a clean pass on the fleet dummy at the moment. So many snipers, mercs, and juggs debuffing the armor.

[Fallenturtle]

2265 on the ship ops dummy. I imagine that's between 2000 and 2150 on the fleet dummy. Quite difficult to get a clean pass on the fleet dummy at the moment. So many snipers, mercs, and juggs debuffing the armor.

 

Any parses from the ship dummy should be disregarded as it's level 50.. also, even so, it''s very low in comparison to other classes parses on the ship dummy.. they start at 2500 dps and the highest I've seen is 2850 from a pyro powertech.