Expertise: Max or 1200 - Debate has ended

[Mookind]

Ok since no one seems to see the flaw in this little experiment

 

One person had a considerable amount more expertise, and thus the guy with less expertise is at a disadvantage

 

Both of you hit the same 1200 expertise target and TA DA. Suddenly what you have been told by most every one makes sense

 

Reality hurts.....

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mookind

[TonyDragonflame]

I never see dudes with maximum expertise on top dps charts after wz. Never. Period.

[shuichi]

what mookind says.

 

the main damage of the one with 1200 expertise is around 3.3% higher. the one with 1400 expertise gets a around 1.9% damage boost and also some damage reduction which means the one with 1200 expertise has to deal 1.9% more damage. now 3.3% < (1.9% + 1.9%).

 

now lets take a third person. someone with 1200 expertise since it seems to be the standard. let it also be a healer, so he won't attack any of these two.

 

person a has the same amount of expertise so it cancels each other out, but he still has a 3.3% higher base damage than person b.

 

person b has 1400 expertise, so he will get a 1.9% damage boost.

 

all of a sudden person a will deal more damage than person b. (3.3% > 1.9%)

 

u shouldn't forget that expertise isn't just boosting your damage, but also increasing your damage reduction. it really depends on your role and your target's expertise to tell what is the best for maximum dps.

 

 

you should extend your experiment and have one with 1200 expertise and one with 1400 expertise and the same stats beat on someone with 1200 expertise and someone with 1400 expertise who isn't striking back and compare that. since you are a pyro this is about maximizing dps i guess and unless you wanna solo ppl, you don't really care if you take 2% less damage, you just want to hit the hardest against msot opponents.

Edited February 3, 2013 by shuichi

[Mharz]

So nice try by the OP to get some meaningful testing out.

 

I think his conclusions are basically sound except as pointed out by the poster above me. You were attacking a target with different amounts of expertise. To make a true and proper comparison you should have both attacked a common target with some fixed value of Expertise. Then did the same math and found the answer.

 

The OP's friend did more damage than the OP because he had more expertise (and therefore more damage boost) AND you had less Expertise (and therefore less damage mitigation). The OP did less damage than his friend because the friend had MORE EXPERTISE (which mitigated more damage). This is the flaw of this method.

 

The following being the real TL;DR thread message.

 

1. The difference between 1200 Expertise and Max Expertise is on the order of 1%.

2. Because the game is so broken (TTK is far too short and CC is out of control broken) 1% won't matter.

3. You can save money and don't bother with expensive PvE gear as a supplement to your PvP gear.

 

/thread

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mharz

[Sleprock]

3. You can save money and don't bother with expensive PvE gear as a supplement to your PvP gear.[/color][/b]

 

/thread

 

There are certain armorings some classes/specs want that offer significant bonuses, therefore do not entirely rule out the quest for PVE pieces. Also, what about those 27k Tanks like myself? I stand by my 1011 EXP all day long. And yes, I'm fully min-maxed WH/EWH with a said number of 63 pve armorings.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Sleprock

[cultivatedmass]

There are certain armorings some classes/specs want that offer significant bonuses, therefore do not entirely rule out the quest for PVE pieces. Also, what about those 27k Tanks like myself? I stand by my 1011 EXP all day long. And yes, I'm fully min-maxed WH/EWH with a said number of 63 pve armorings.

 

what is the hp of full endurance heavy expertise gear.

 

if it's anywhere near close to what you have then the loss of 400 expertise may be too much...

Edited February 3, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[Memo-]

Everything that needs to be said was already said by ArchangelLBC.

 

The point is: Lower expertise was better BEFORE 1.6, but today the difference is so minor it doesn't matter which way you go.

 

When the PvP-belt and wrists were unmoddable, by using a a moddable version with a PvE-armoring resulted in a much higher stat budget. Usually people used PvP-mods with these. But now that EWH-versions are moddable, there is no longer need to bridge the gap of the stat difference, so here things become purely mathematical.

[Megatfx]

So essentially, if everyone starts stacking max expertise, 1208-1214 players will lose out 1% damage. The only benefit 1208-1214 expertise players get is attacking other 1208-1214 expertise players but if they get attacked in return they are taking about 3% more damage as well.

 

So if you're on a team with everyone at max expertise, fighting a team of players at 1200 expertise, the max expertise team should theoretically win in damage and take less damage.

[StJon]

i dont get it why were only non crits taken in this equation?

 

Theres classes like lets say Deception Sin that have huge boost to surge so they are very crit depandant and people with pve armorings do have more crit on them

 

It seems like removing crits from your little experience favoured one side

Altho the difference is still not a whole lot and for the most part still neglectable...it just seems like a bad premiss to ignore one advatange that only one side has when comparing the two

Edited February 3, 2013 by StJon

[DeAlerT]

Just a question, for someone who likes testing, or atleast doing math.

 

So you are taking bit more damage from someone with more expertise and doing bit less damage to him.

What if you droped to 1200 expertise by using expertise crystals, but more PVE armorings? This way you would gain more HP then the guy with more expertise, the question is just if it would balance his damage or not.

[MusicRider]

Ehm did you have sorcs buffs?

 

You also receive more healing from max expertise.

Really? From http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Expertise

"Expertise increases the amount of damage and healing you do as well as reduces the amount of damage you take in PvP combat. This is a stat that appears on every PvP set. "

Where exactly does it say "it increases the amount of healing received?".

Edited February 3, 2013 by MusicRider

[abhaxus]

One thing that this experiment definitely proves is that for the low price of about 1.7 million credits, you can upgrade from full WH @1370 expertise to having 63 lvl hilt/barrel/armoring in your main hand and offhand. Zero grind for those of us with several alts and plenty of credits. If 1214 is very close to 1396 with both having the same force/tech power, giving a player who is otherwise in full 61s PVP gear the 63 weapons is a huge difference in grinding for top output than saving 3475 rwz comms.

[gravioli]

Why not test this with prototype flame thrower? The ticks do not vary unless you increase or decrease your damage stats. For example my AP PT always hits standard PVE mobs for 2610 on each crit tick with my current gear, all buffs, and exotech stim. If I swap the stim for a prototype version it drops to the 2500 range (can't remember the exact #). Maybe I'm missing something, but in PVP this should also work when comparing damage due to stat changes. I will test it out later in a duel.

[Schil]

There are certain armorings some classes/specs want that offer significant bonuses, therefore do not entirely rule out the quest for PVE pieces. Also, what about those 27k Tanks like myself? I stand by my 1011 EXP all day long. And yes, I'm fully min-maxed WH/EWH with a said number of 63 pve armorings.

 

you relay on your cds to mitigate damage. In my opinion as a healer the extra health buys you time to withstand spike dmg. In some situations its better but others expertise is better toss up based on play style.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Schil

[Mharz]

There are certain armorings some classes/specs want that offer significant bonuses, therefore do not entirely rule out the quest for PVE pieces. Also, what about those 27k Tanks like myself? I stand by my 1011 EXP all day long. And yes, I'm fully min-maxed WH/EWH with a said number of 63 pve armorings.

 

What his findings (they're sorta flawed actually) and my findings point towards is that you're giving up a little damage mitigation and a little damage output in exchange for that extra health. My test showed that it's about 2% per 82 expertise in damage and 0.7% damage reduction.

 

If you're okay with that for the extra 6K of health then good on you and keep on tanking. It's really about making smart choices.

[Nyracasso]

There are certain armorings some classes/specs want that offer significant bonuses, therefore do not entirely rule out the quest for PVE pieces. Also, what about those 27k Tanks like myself? I stand by my 1011 EXP all day long. And yes, I'm fully min-maxed WH/EWH with a said number of 63 pve armorings.

 

I'd rather heal a tank in 1396 expertise and 24k hp than a tank in 1011 expertise and 27k hp.

 

All that extra damage you're taking needs to be healed. Over time you require more casts/energy/force to keep up. Beyond a certain point the extra hp buffer is less of a factor than simply taking less damage.

 

The lower and lower expertise you have, the more you just become a resource sponge for the healers.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Nyracasso

[Schil]

I'd rather heal a tank in 1396 expertise and 24k hp than a tank in 1011 expertise and 27k hp.

 

All that extra damage you're taking needs to be healed. Over time you require more casts/energy/force to keep up. Beyond a certain point the extra hp buffer is less of a factor than simply taking less damage.

 

The lower and lower expertise you have, the more you just become a resource sponge for the healers.

 

truth

[EtiMos]

First of all i would like to hand it to Megatfx for his efforts to provide the community with actual numbers about the specific matter.

 

The numbers prove that expertise is more importand than power in pvp cz it's not a static. It is related to the enemy's expertise so the bigger the difference between your own expertise and his the bigger your dmg boost against him and lesser the dmg he does on you.

[RendakFel]

The largest issue I find with this argument is that Primary stat comparisons vs. Expertise bonuses is largely a 1v1 argument. This is valid for the player on the off point fighting a 1v1. In large scale main battles, rarely are players taking damage from 1 source, and their is absolutely zero question whether the power stat on the DPSer getting nuked in the middle is more beneficial at that moment then expertise.

 

Healers and tanks are more likely to get away with expertise drops, as are "backline" style dpsers. I'll add that having a larger HP pool really makes a difference when it comes to surviving execute range. The top end health is fluff.

Edited February 3, 2013 by RendakFel

[LastWizard]

For pt's I understand it. For a dps assassin, if you were to do this, you'd lose a lot of dps because we're a class that's crit dependent. 1150 expertise and I hit people with 1350 expertise for 5k. It's not that big of a deal. 1% isn't going to change much.

[Mharz]

The numbers prove that expertise is more importand than power...

 

I'm not sure that was the conclusion at all. His test was flawed. Although he did make an excellent effort at it.

 

What we can conclude for sure is that the difference between full expertise and subbing in a little power is on the order of a percent or two. If you want a little more damage against a target with some static expertise you pick power. If you want a little more survivability from the expertise you stack that.

[Asunasan]

I'm not sure that was the conclusion at all. His test was flawed. Although he did make an excellent effort at it.

 

What we can conclude for sure is that the difference between full expertise and subbing in a little power is on the order of a percent or two. If you want a little more damage against a target with some static expertise you pick power. If you want a little more survivability from the expertise you stack that.

 

I can see how you could claim his test is flawed, I don't see how you could claim that power gives you more damage. Maybe I missed something. Unless you mean power will give you more damage against under geared players, but who cares if max expertise is what makes you do more damage against max expertise players and players with 1200 expertise than the 1200ers do to max expertise.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Asunasan

[Mharz]

I can see how you could claim his test is flawed, I don't see how you could claim that power gives you more damage. Maybe I missed something. Unless you mean power will give you more damage against under geared players, but who cares if max expertise is what makes you do more damage against max expertise players and players with 1200 expertise than the 1200ers do to max expertise.

 

My claim, which I posted some initial testing to support, is the following:

 

1. Against a player with some number for expertise (this number doesn't matter, pick whatever number you want) you will do slightly more damage (~2%) if you're at 1214 expertise compared to 1296 expertise at a cost of 0.7% damage reduction from expertise.

 

2. Based on how broken the game is (short TTK and far too many CCs) the differences described in 1 above don't really matter too much and is really a personal choice.

 

The OP did do a nice job with testing but his test was flawed (slightly) and really not completely accurate but his results mostly support my conclusions above as well.

[TonyDragonflame]

Since curve of damage dealing higher on 5% than curve of damage reduction, burst and ranged dps can trade this 5% for extra damage instead of reduction. So, stealthers and snipers are fine with 1156-1214, I guess.

[Asunasan]

My claim, which I posted some initial testing to support, is the following:

 

1. Against a player with some number for expertise (this number doesn't matter, pick whatever number you want) you will do slightly more damage (~2%) if you're at 1214 expertise compared to 1296 expertise at a cost of 0.7% damage reduction from expertise.

 

2. Based on how broken the game is (short TTK and far too many CCs) the differences described in 1 above don't really matter too much and is really a personal choice.

 

The OP did do a nice job with testing but his test was flawed (slightly) and really not completely accurate but his results mostly support my conclusions above as well.

 

If you pick 1396 expertise as the target dummy for both the 1214 still does more damage to them than another 1396? I agree a control would have helped his test. Argument two is irrelevant in the realm of min maxing though slightly higher ttk would be fine with me.