Require Tank Stance for Taunts?

[JackNader]

Taunts should have ALWAYS been bound to the tanking stance. No dps should have taunts. Tanks already have absolutely no love.

[Hexdoll]

Yet another derpy response from you that is most definitely facepalm worthy. So, you're saying the classes people are complaining about that have taunts as utility are only available to the other team? Now I get why you think there's a "gear gap" in this game. If you spent half the time and effort in game as you do licking windows on the short bus in the PvP forum, you'd be geared by now.

 

well don't you strain that vapid black hole god gave you instead a head, the normal people will take the time to read it as a response and understand it.

[Draqsko]

Great examples except healing classes aren't worth crap for off heals. BW did a good job of nerfing that. Honestly I feel they should buff off healing from the healing ACs. They're sucking hind teat for utility when they're in a serious DPS spec.

 

On topic: Taunts are what seperates the good Assault vanguards and Derpsmash guardians from the bad ones, and absolutely should not be taken away in DPS stances. VGs in particular are lacking for any other kind of utility.

 

You are forgetting one of the healing classes biggest utilities that's able to be used in DPS specs, cleanses. Pyrotech/Assault Spec builds are nearly entirely dependant on the DoTs they put on their targets to proc their heavy hitting abilities. Try cleansing their targets and you'll see their DPS drop dramatically. Even being off heals, you can help a healer keep someone up through heavy burst, try it some time.

 

Also, DPS sages/sorcs still get bubble which is as effective as heal specs since it's entirely dependant on Bonus Healing, which is willpower and power based (as well as counting on the scoreboard as healing, this is what all those sages and sorcs are doing that only have 100k heals and 300k+ damage). Actually, bubble might be more effective for a DPS spec, since many don't stack as much alacrity as a healer would, and can stack more power.

 

Taunts for pure DPS smashers and PT/VGs in their DPS stance have minimal effect in combat since they are trading survivability for damage output by being in their DPS stance and using a focus/generator instead of a shield. Smart players are going to focus down Assault/Pyros and Smashers because they realize that taking out these people as fast as possible will limit their impact on the outcome of the warzone, and they die as fast as any other DPS because heavy armor has a minimal affect on survivability without being in tank stance. Once you are attacked by the people you taunt, your taunt is a waste. Against an organized group, DPS taunters rarely get over 50k protection even in protracted warzones on my server, the ones that do manage to avoid being focus fired.

 

If taunts should be tied to defense stance only then cleanses, bubbles, and heals should be tied to heal spec/stance only as well. But honestly, removing any of these from DPS's is limiting utility and strategy from their respective classes, and would require a massive rebalancing across all classes even pure DPS classes since they have utility abilities also. Just ponder for a minute how many stuns and roots gunslingers and snipers have, and how effective those abilities are. Removing one or two classes utilities means having to remove some utility from other classes as well to maintain balance.

[DarkSaberMaster]

When heals are tied to a healing stance, then I will agree with this topic. Until then, no.

[JackNader]

Wow! what a way to tone down taunts.

 

First of all bubble spam as a DPS is NOT going to happen and you would know why if you actually played a DPS sorc. It costs 60 force, has a 4.5 second cooldown and costs a global.

 

Cleanse for sorcs is almost useless. It ONLY cleanses force attacks. This means you only get to really cleanse stuff when dueling another sorc or if a madness assassin chucks a lightning charge on you. You aren't going to be cleansing anyone else or bubbling anyone else.

 

Opperative / commando offheals isn't going to happen either. Players can do more damage in that period than you can heal for. It's pointless to even cast them unless the target you are trying to heal is not being attacked and is hiding.

 

Taunts on the other hand can be spammed all the time, cost no resources and have a massive impact on damage output of the opposing team. They absolutely should be locked to tanking stance mode. It's a tanking ability and no DPS should have access to them.

[Markisha]

I think that they must keep their taunts.

 

Reasons :

- Marauders/Sentinels have group buffs.

- Snipers/Gunslingers have cover to make them good defenders

- Healing capable have off-heals

- Tanking capable have Taunts.

 

Bind taunts tanking stance, and then you'll turn all DPS-spec of Guardian/PT/Shadows and equivalent into simplistic DPS, but who are supposed to not deal more, nor to survive more, and without extra utility.

Each AC has one thing in top of their DPS role, taunt is this thing.

 

^this

[Draqsko]

Wow! what a way to tone down taunts.

 

First of all bubble spam as a DPS is NOT going to happen and you would know why if you actually played a DPS sorc. It costs 60 force, has a 4.5 second cooldown and costs a global.

 

Cleanse for sorcs is almost useless. It ONLY cleanses force attacks. This means you only get to really cleanse stuff when dueling another sorc or if a madness assassin chucks a lightning charge on you. You aren't going to be cleansing anyone else or bubbling anyone else.

 

Opperative / commando offheals isn't going to happen either. Players can do more damage in that period than you can heal for. It's pointless to even cast them unless the target you are trying to heal is not being attacked and is hiding.

 

Taunts on the other hand can be spammed all the time, cost no resources and have a massive impact on damage output of the opposing team. They absolutely should be locked to tanking stance mode. It's a tanking ability and no DPS should have access to them.

 

You have obviously not played an Assault Spec/Pyro, HiB and Railshot only procs on targets taking periodic damage or incapacitated. That is their single biggest hit, with 30% armor penetration. Two classes can cleanse that DoT, and it's an instant cast, that you can fire on the move, wasting only one GCD. Cleansing their DoT will mess with their rotation completely. I've been victimized by this many times against scoundrels and ops, since smart ones will self cleanse as soon as you DoT them up, meaning you can never get your HiB/railshot off. Take away that hit and most will never crack 200k damage, since they run into issues with heat/ammo management being forced to use other abilities. IR, HiB, IP/SS, HiB actually refills ammo and keeps you at the highest regeneration level. Look up High Friction Bolts, Ionic Accelerator, and Burnout in the VG Assault Spec tree and you'll see how critical those DoTs are to their DPS. Then look up how much ammo his guaranteed DoTs cost him, you'll wreck his resource management in one cleanse. 2 uses of IR take half his resources, and Hammer Shot is very unreliable for putting out DoTs and limits your burst and overall DPS.

 

And taunts cannot be spammed all the time, single target taunt is on a 15 second cooldown and AOE taunt is on a 45 second cooldown, both only last for 6 seconds, and are negated by attacking the taunter. There is also a very easy to see graphic effect, the taunted is covered by a red glow, the taunter is covered by a blue glow. If you get taunted and start glowing red, look for the guy who is glowing blue and hit him, alot. Their taunt is now useless.

 

While cleansing is less useful for sage/sorcs, bubbling is not. If it was useless, then explain the 300k damage/100k heals many DPS sages/sorcs get, as well as the stun bubble. They are not healing for that 100k heals, that is bubbles.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Draqsko

[cultivatedmass]

But you can off heal whenever u want. Taunts are on cooldown. Scoundrels commandos ect can put out way more heals over the course of a wz than a shadow or guardian can put out protection numbers. Heck hybrids do 300k dmg and 300k heals in Voidstar all the time while 30-50k protection is a high number for dps and hybrids who have taunts.

 

you're missing the point. a dps throwing off a weak heal is actually helping less than just doing damage. a pt taunting is losing NOTHING.

 

also a hybrid is a hybrid. if they want to taunt, make them go hybrid as well.

 

voidstar is just a huge pile of aoe damage/healing/dots. the scoreboard for that map is useless.

Edited February 3, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[JackNader]

I can't believe you just posted assault spec being a victim of cleanse rotfl. For starters cleanse has a 4.5 second cooldown and takes a global to do it, which means they can't damage you anyway lol. As far as you not being able to do any damage, rotfl. With all the stunlocking in this game and dots going off you dont even need to apply your dot to trigger your railshot. your entire spec revolves around you spam flameburst anyway. Now maybe if you were a merc or a madness sorc, your argument would be more credible but certainly not when coming from a pt pyro lol.

 

BTW

 

That 100k healing is NOT from bubbling other people. It's from bubbling themselves, Unnatural preservation spam and all the madness dot heals.

Edited February 3, 2013 by JackNader

[Thirn]

you're missing the point. a dps throwing off a weak heal is actually helping less than just doing damage. a pt taunting is losing NOTHING.

 

also a hybrid is a hybrid. if they want to taunt, make them go hybrid as well.

 

voidstar is just a huge pile of aoe damage/healing/dots. the scoreboard for that map is useless.

 

Oh I'd be happy to hybrid, if I could. I think a great many PTs would absolutely love to get Carolina Parakeet back. So, sure revert PPA and you can go ahead and lock taunts to tank stance.

[magnashear]

Check the scoreboard , look at the total dmg your team did, then look at the total protection the other team did. It won't be anywhere near 30% of your damage total. Mostly less than 5%, and that number is including guards . Those who say they are constantly taunted all match are prolly just frustrated.

[cultivatedmass]

Check the scoreboard , look at the total dmg your team did, then look at the total protection the other team did. It won't be anywhere near 30% of your damage total. Mostly less than 5%, and that number is including guards . Those who say they are constantly taunted all match are prolly just frustrated.

 

can't look at it like that. it stops burst that could potentially win a fight.

 

scoreboard is 80% fluff.

[Cowflab]

well don't you strain that vapid black hole god gave you instead a head, the normal people will take the time to read it as a response and understand it.

 

There is nothing to understand. Your incessant whining of abilities that are available to every team is completely void of logic. All your posts equate to is a "woe is me, everything is keeping me from winning except me admitting I'm probably nowhere near as good as I think I am." To summarize, L2P, quit thinking the deck is stacked against you, make some e-friends, and enjoy the fruits of the mechanics you complain about. This isn't a FPS, nor is it a single player game.

[abokado]

Absolutely not. Or, only if you give me stealth and a friggin stun.

[Helig]

I agree that it is a key part of their class, however the other examples you used cannot decrease an entire opposing teams damage output by 30%..... while keeping your teams damage exactly the same. I do not think the tank AC's should be able to do the same(if not more in case of PT/Van) dps and still be able to reduce the other teams damage by a substantial amount.

 

Without changing how the game works in PvE perhaps make it so once taunted players get an immunity from taunts for some time? So they cannot be chained. Or make it so that the damage reduction is reduced so its not as big of a hit to dps classes.

 

My problem is you can be taunted by a few tank AC's in dps spec the entire duration of a fight almost with how quick the battles are now. Meaning that unless I attack the tank AC, i suffer 30% less damage(meaning I cannot burst down his healer and that his healer has an easy job just keeping him up) but I still take same if not more damage..... seems somewhat unfair still.

 

How's that fundamentally different from Transcendence/Predation, Inspiration/Bloodlust, cover, etc? Also, DPS-specced taunting classes have the survivability of DPS, meaning they're pretty squishy. And being taunted by them doesn't decrease damage done to them.

 

What do you propose DPS-specced tank capable classes to have for utility, in this case? Taunt in tank stance? Nobody will ever taunt, then, because it has cast time, or eats your entire resource pool.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Helig

[Jarlaxb]

I also agree that they should be able to keep their taunts, but I also see the other arguement and if your not a "tank" so to speak you shouldn't be taunting, thats a tnak ability.

 

I realize the amount of hate this suggestion would cause, but it seems a fair comprimise. I think that "unless the tank is in tank form, spec, or whatever" every player taunted by the "dps" reduces the dps of the person using taunt by 15% stacking debuff x4 so basically , if your reducing the dps of 4 people by 30% = 120% "team dammage reduction" then you take 60% personal dammage reduction or 1/2 that.

[Helig]

I also agree that they should be able to keep their taunts, but I also see the other arguement and if your not a "tank" so to speak you shouldn't be taunting, thats a tnak ability.

 

I realize the amount of hate this suggestion would cause, but it seems a fair comprimise. I think that "unless the tank is in tank form, spec, or whatever" every player taunted by the "dps" reduces the dps of the person using taunt by 15% stacking debuff x4 so basically , if your reducing the dps of 4 people by 30% = 120% "team dammage reduction" then you take 60% personal dammage reduction or 1/2 that.

Well, DPS could have a more "selfish" taunt - decreases damage done TO them and only to them - not the team.

[Jarlaxb]

Well, DPS could have a more "selfish" taunt - decreases damage done TO them and only to them - not the team.

 

I was kind of going along the lines of the more you use a "tank" ability like taunt in a dps form or role "to include all taunting classes" the more like a tank your dammage becomes.

[foxmob]

You are forgetting one of the healing classes biggest utilities that's able to be used in DPS specs, cleanses. Pyrotech/Assault Spec builds are nearly entirely dependant on the DoTs they put on their targets to proc their heavy hitting abilities. Try cleansing their targets and you'll see their DPS drop dramatically. Even being off heals, you can help a healer keep someone up through heavy burst, try it some time. .

 

I play both trooper ACs. I've played them in every tree (no hybrids). I'm not biased here. The commando cleanse isn't anywhere close to the utility that the VG taunts (plural) are. The punt isn't nearly as much utility for the ops as harpoon is. and guess what? cleanse costs ammo (more, in fact, if you're not a healer). taunts cost nothing AND they're off the gcd.

 

again, I'm not a commando crying for more toys. however, you're either smokin something or don't have a clue what you're talking about if you think the utility that a commando brings to the raid (which is covered by scoundrels as well) is anywhere near as valuable as that of their VG dps counterparts.

 

edit: cleansing pyro/assault dots is the single most useless cleanse on the planet. no. not really. they do need to be cleansed, but the dot reapplies instantly. cleanse cannot be activated instantly. pyros also have multiple dots. other class dots, a single cleanse here or there is effective. on a pyro? good luck. if you're a dps wasting time to cleanse me instead of blowing up the glass cannon that's setting me on fire, I'd say you're doing it wrong. save it for incendiary or if you can cast the instant he lights you up the first time to beat his railshot (very difficult given the lag in this game), then you've come out ahead. otherwise? just kill the dude.

Edited February 3, 2013 by foxmob

[theSCARAYone]

Once again we have a stupid post thinking only about pvp and now how it would affect pve. You know how many times a dps off taunting on kephess will save your ***?

[Smashbrother]

It's not make this game easier to play. Using taunts effectively is an easy to spot indicator between baddie dps derps, and actual good players.

 

I'd be ok with making taunts less effective while not spec tank. Same with guard. Like make taunts/guards half as effective unless they're actually spec tanks. 15% taunts, 25% guard in dps specs.

 

I'd also be ok with keeping the status quo though.

[Feztonio]

make tanking viable in pvp and warzones and i'd be for this. the reason tank classes play dps specs with taunts is because tanking was nerfed a few times and its not a viable spec. so fix tanking so you can 'tank' in pvp and then sure but until tanking and having full tank war hero gear matters then you can't limit taunts. we get it youre sad your smashmonkey isn't smashing as mighty as he should due to taunts but they already forced tanks to play dps spec with changes.. don't press for further changes to the tank classes. or we might as well have 8 vs 8 smashmonkey battle zone and everyone just smash / force sweep all the live long day

[ObscureKnight]

Once again we have a stupid post thinking only about pvp and now how it would affect pve. You know how many times a dps off taunting on kephess will save your ***?

 

I play off tank, I know this is a necessity in ops. Also in PVP it just pisses people off when they don't see where that PT / VG is hiding when he reduces your attack on his heals. Shame that some on is fighting for the team.

[glocklB]

I think that they must keep their taunts.

 

Reasons :

- Marauders/Sentinels have group buffs.

- Snipers/Gunslingers have cover to make them good defenders

- Healing capable have off-heals

- Tanking capable have Taunts.

 

Bind taunts tanking stance, and then you'll turn all DPS-spec of Guardian/PT/Shadows and equivalent into simplistic DPS, but who are supposed to not deal more, nor to survive more, and without extra utility.

Each AC has one thing in top of their DPS role, taunt is this thing.

 

Aw yeah, great attempt to equalize off-heals to taunt When i heal, you know, i have to stop dpsing for some reason... it must be happening because of need to cast heals Assuming my spec is dps i underperform when i heal. I've played hybrid guardian, and kinda aware of how easy taunts can be used, it's great utility and yet it doesn't affect your damage output - both abilities are instant.

[dcgregorya]

I have two issues with this idea.

 

1) It reduces the skill cap of the game. So already I don't like it.

2) For me to suggest nerfing DPS tank classes I'd have to think they're overpowered - which I don't (excepting maybe Pyro PT/Assault VG).

 

I don't think many knowledgeable/skilled people think rage or vengeance spec juggys are OP or madness/deception sins or middle tree PTs/VGs.

Edited February 4, 2013 by dcgregorya