The common misconception about Expertise:

[SharpG]

Have you actually tried it? How is that poor stat distribution when my attacks are hitting 1214 expertise players harder than they are hitting me?

 

There is no point you even posting in this thread anymore. You refuse to even fathom that I could be correct, or take the time yourself to sit down and test it. You demand your 1214 expertise is the better of the two without confirming it yourself.

 

So in that regard, you'll just never know whereas I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

There is clearly no point in arguing this with you when you are clearly so dead set on your ways, even your title claims to think you know all about expertise. I have confirmed it myself, so excuse me if I don't take you at your word.

 

Efficiency means nothing under focus fire. Surviving with 20 HP because of a 2% increase in damage reduction, means they have to waste another GCD on you.

 

This is an absolutely ridiculous scenario, that might happen in .01% of games, if ever.

Edited February 2, 2013 by SharpG

[cultivatedmass]

Actually, that is not the way the damage/damage reduction is calculated. If you have an equal amount of Expertise, you will do no more damage to your target at all. Let's take a very easy example, where you have a 25% damage increase and a 20% damage reduction (you'll notice that they will all even out, regardless of Expertise level).

 

BaseDamage * (1 + ExpertiseDamageIncrease) * (1 - ExpertiseDamageReduction) = Damage

 

Example: 1000 * ( 1 + 0.25) * (1 - 0.2) = 1000

 

So if you're sitting at 25% damage increase, and the other person only has 18% damage reduction, you'll land at this:

 

Example: 1000 * (1 + 0.25) * (1 - 0.18) = 1025

Which is a 2.5% damage increase.

 

From this, it is very easy to calculate how much more damage person A with X Expertise would do to person B with Y Expertise.

 

that is a very strange way to show the stats on the character sheet if this is the case.

[cultivatedmass]

Once again, you aren't including the whole picture, the amount of HP gained and crit chance gained needs to be factored in as well. 1396 Expertise is BARELY going to be noticeable from 1200ish, a healer will not be able to tell the difference, I can guarantee you that. You might be SLIGHTLY more durable with maximum expertise but going power crystals and two PvE armorings is a lot more efficient in your stat distribution. The difference between the two set ups are almost neglibile but the 1200ish expertise has been proven to be slightly more efficient when it comes to outgoing damage vs incoming damage tradeoff.

 

Everything you say is based on your word and nothing else, you have no proof or data to back your claims up. The only thing you've done is use poor attempts at a test to prove that one is better then the other. The only thing you are doing is basing your opinion on how something "feels".

 

a couple hp makes zero difference as well. most people get overkilled by huge burst.

 

Everything you say is based on your word and nothing else, you have no proof or data to back your claims up. The only thing you've done is use poor attempts at a test to prove that one is better then the other. The only thing you are doing is basing your opinion on how something "feels".

 

how something "feels" by actually testing is more proof than reading some random graph you found online. if you really want proof you will run the same test since for some reason you believe he is lying for no reason.

Edited February 2, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[SharpG]

a couple hp makes zero difference as well. most people get overkilled by huge burst.

 

 

 

how something "feels" is more proof than reading some random grpah with no feel at all. you need to do tests if youa ctually want proof.

 

A noob whining about a class feeling overpowered is no more proof then what you suggest.

[cultivatedmass]

A noob whining about a class feeling overpowered is no more proof then what you suggest.

 

how do you test overpowered like you can test expertise? they're not the same.

[Megatfx]

There is clearly no point in arguing this with you when you are clearly so dead set on your ways, even your title claims to think you know all about expertise. I have confirmed it myself, so excuse me if I don't take you at your word.

 

 

 

This is an absolutely ridiculous scenario, that might happen in .01% of games, if ever.

 

I wouldn't expect some clueless pvper from severity gamer to actually test something related to pvp.

[MelliMelon]

I'd like to contribute to this thread from a healer's perspective.

 

I have done tests utilizing healing formulas (EG Ability Healing Max = Coefficient * HealingBonus + StandardHealthPercentMax * StandardHealth and others from http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-364.html)

 

and calculated that, although I heal my companion (0 expertise) for slightly more by exchanging dread guard armorings for elite war hero armorings, my relative survivability is highest when I stack expertise. What does this mean? That the extra healing from PvE stats do not outweigh the increased damage taken + PvP bonus healing. As a healer, I'm healing myself a large amount of the time. If I were only healing others, I could lose expertise. However, for some reason, in ranked people try to kill me.

[SharpG]

I wouldn't expect some clueless pvper from severity gamer to actually test something related to pvp.

 

So your argument doesn't hold up and you resort to personal attacks against me and my guild? Congratulations.

 

You are simply being unreasonable now and there is little point arguing with you. I seem to have angered you by disagreeing, so I shall take my leave.

Edited February 2, 2013 by SharpG

[jizerai]

that is a very strange way to show the stats on the character sheet if this is the case.

 

Why would it be strange? It clearly states Damage Boost on Players and Damage Reduction Players. I was just saying that the Damage Boost and the Damage Reduction cancel each other out if fighting against an equally Expertise-geared opponent.

 

It makes total sense to apply your Damage Boost and then apply his/her Damage Reduction to get how much damage is dealt. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean here?

[Washingtoon]

While I don't have any evidence to back up my case I'd have to say that I feel way more confident in max expertise. It's kind of like a placebo effect. I havent noticed any differences in output either but it's hard to tell when not every game plays out the same way and the dummies are ignoring expertise. Guess it could be tested on real players in the Den. It's not like my sorc/sage abilties are going to hit for several K more so I'll take my chances with the damage reduction instead. Edited February 2, 2013 by Washingtoon

[Megatfx]

So your argument doesn't hold up and you resort to personal attacks against me and my guild? Congratulations.

 

You are simply being unreasonable now and there is little point arguing with you. I seem to have angered you by disagreeing, so I shall take my leave.

 

No you are being unreasonable. I ask everyone test something I have seen to be true. You tell me I am wrong without even testing what I've mentioned. You continue to post in my thread even though you believe I'm wrong without even attempting to prove me incorrect. Go away.

 

I want this thread open for people to post their REAL findings

Edited February 2, 2013 by Megatfx

[criminalheretic]

Actually you're wrong, if you farm the EWH or WH (Can't remember atm) offhand you can put those armorings in any slot of gear. Like the tionese/rakata/campaign sorc healer armor to get the set bonus AND still get max expertise.

 

That is another thing entirely different. That is what my sorc healer has. You can possibly find more information about it from a few google searches. Dont' want to derail this thread too much. A lot of the top tier assassins on my server have done that to get their 4 piece tionese bonus while maintaining max expertise. Or DPS operatives who want the 15% crit 2 piece. Etc.

 

WH. Sadly the EWH offhand armoring is offhand specific.

[Monterone]

Expertise is way better, I never go with PvE armorings, but I do switch out 1 crystal to power usually on all of my toons and end up running 1355 expertise.

 

However the expertise curve is so gentle that one could easily go up to 1450 to 1500 and still see benefits. I do like my bonus damage to be in the certain portion of the 900s, so I do play with power crystals, but that depends on what role I play.

 

Dps sorc - both power crystals... healer sorc - both expertise.... deception sin 1 power, 1 expertise... rage marauder - both power... pyro PT - both expertise... etc...

 

Perhaps I should run all expertise on all toons but I never had anyone geared exactly the same to test stuff out with... so good work.

[Arkerus]

I usually run max exp on my tanks because I'm not there to knock people out. I'm there to soak up damage. On my dps, however, I only run about 1200.

[ebado]

I want this thread open for people to post their REAL findings

 

Then post some. You haven't provided real findings yet, so do so. Show us these flamebursts. You said somebody recorded them. Show us. Show us your gear setups. Show us how your sample is mathematically at odds with how expertise works (what is calculated when) and how it is shown on the character sheet. Give us the numbers.

 

All of this has been done with the current, factual numbers. And tested in-game (Yeah, I have, too). Those are real findings. Post some yourself.

[Megatfx]

I usually run max exp on my tanks because I'm not there to knock people out. I'm there to soak up damage. On my dps, however, I only run about 1200.

 

My post is saying that max expertise does more damage than 1200 expertise and I'm asking you to test it, not repeat something you never figured out yourself but what some guy who makes pretty graphs told you months ago. I'm hoping you actually read the post

[DaedalusV]

WH. Sadly the EWH offhand armoring is offhand specific.

 

EWH belts and bracers have non-slot specific armourings. I'd much rather just buy those instead of being sad that I can't get the off-hand armourings Much cheaper this way.

 

Oh and almost all ACs get BiS mods in those belts.

[cultivatedmass]

Then post some. You haven't provided real findings yet, so do so. Show us these flamebursts. You said somebody recorded them. Show us. Show us your gear setups. Show us how your sample is mathematically at odds with how expertise works (what is calculated when) and how it is shown on the character sheet. Give us the numbers.

 

All of this has been done with the current, factual numbers. And tested in-game (Yeah, I have, too). Those are real findings. Post some yourself.

 

show us your in-game findings. don't link to a graph please.

Edited February 2, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[Arkerus]

My post is saying that max expertise does more damage than 1200 expertise and I'm asking you to test it, not repeat something you never figured out yourself but what some guy who makes pretty graphs told you months ago. I'm hoping you actually read the post

 

I wasn't even questioning you nor was I directing that at you. Your crass comment isn't needed.

 

I was just adding some casual comments to the thread. I didn't even claim I had data to back it up. It's something I was personally choosing to do.

[Arkerus]

That it's useless over 1214 (Or 1208 if you're in just WH)

 

I know you have graphs on how it's supposed to work. Simply put, you are significantly tankier with 1396 expertise, to the point where your healers will notice it. In fact I'm willing to bet most people who claim 1214 is ideal have never even run max expertise in Rateds.

 

Take a test I did with another powertech. We both had IDENTICAL stats (Itemized exactly the same) except he used 2x power crystals, and 2x PvE armorings.

 

We both had the same exact buffs/stims and he had about 35-40 more bonus damage than I did.

 

I flamebursted him, he flamebursted me. My flameburst hit him harder than it hit me. In fact, anyone with 1214 expertise will do less damage to me than I will do to them. "The math doesn't support it, the math shows this due to how expertise scales on your character sheet."

 

I will tell you right now that it is broken. What it displays and what it actually does is incorrect. I encourage you all to test it out.

 

With 1396 expertise you will ACTUALLY hit someone for 1214 expertise HARDER than they hit you. The only time 1214 expertise does more damage, is against people with 1214 or less expertise.

 

My healers frequently note how significantly easier it is to heal my PT with 1396 expertise to an equally geared PT with 1214 expertise.

 

The forums have been filled with incorrect information about expertise for a very long time, I don't care about what your graphs say, if you test it out against someone of the same class, identical gearing minus one in pve armorings/power crystals you will find that the guy with 1396 expertise is doing more damage to you than you are doing to him.

 

Why is that? Because expertise is better. Too many people are obsessed with your character sheet. The only classes that actually get away with less are healers because of the nature of the healing bonus.

 

You can either disregard what I've said without testing it, or see for yourself, I encourage the latter as you'll be amazed. Please don't post your stupid graphs, they aren't applicable because in-game the numbers are different.

 

I'd appreciate some hard evidence with your claim. Thanks. Spreadsheets, pictures, anything really.

[iSoldat]

When my sniper's expertise was at 1261, the word squishy comes to mind. After reaching 1346, there was a huge difference in survability and dps.

[Megatfx]

When my sniper's expertise was at 1261, the word squishy comes to mind. After reaching 1346, there was a huge difference in survability and dps.

 

I will run another test around midnight est after rateds. I'll create a new thread.

 

I have to find a pt similarly geared to me, then swap my extra stuff around to match his exactly (I have hundreds of enhancements and dozens of mods for my PT), then ensure he is specced identically to mine. I won't be screenshotting hundreds of flame bursts, just a few and screens of our character sheets to prove identical setups (remember I will have to downgrade my min/max ewh setup to match someone else's undergeared or incorrect setup so don't judge me) and a spreadsheet of our damage.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Megatfx

[Khalhazar]

I will run a test around midnight est after rateds. I'll create a new thread

 

Awesome, thank you.

[Yeochins]

I will run another test around midnight est after rateds. I'll create a new thread.

 

I have to find a pt similarly geared to me, then swap my extra stuff around to match his exactly (I have hundreds of enhancements and dozens of mods for my PT), then ensure he is specced identically to mine. I won't be screenshotting hundreds of flame bursts, just a few and screens of our character sheets to prove identical setups (remember I will have to downgrade my min/max ewh setup to match someone else's undergeared or incorrect setup so don't judge me) and a spreadsheet of our damage.

 

You can enable damage logging, and it will log the raw damage you inflict and take to a text file in your Documents folder.

[ebado]

I will run another test around midnight est after rateds. I'll create a new thread.

 

I have to find a pt similarly geared to me, then swap my extra stuff around to match his exactly (I have hundreds of enhancements and dozens of mods for my PT), then ensure he is specced identically to mine. I won't be screenshotting hundreds of flame bursts, just a few and screens of our character sheets to prove identical setups (remember I will have to downgrade my min/max ewh setup to match someone else's undergeared or incorrect setup so don't judge me) and a spreadsheet of our damage.

 

Or use a combat log.