Same gender romance discussion

[sentientomega]

One of Pierce's war buddies you recruit for the Bastion assault is a woman who got a cushy job by becoming an old but powerful Moff's mistress. Pierce tells her to get the guy's troops for the Bastion assault, she objects on the basis that she hates sleeping with a dirty old man. Pierce tells her to take one for the team.

 

Pierce should now realise that my SWs have marked his card, he'll be lucky if he's only exiled.

 

That's arguably tacky, not misogynistic.

 

Try both...

 

Yeah, and if you kill Juhani rather than save her, it drives Belaya nuts and she pops up on Korriban as a Sith.

 

...where Revan is attacked, and kills her; which is a shame, I think we should've been able to opt for Belaya as a companion there, especially for a female Revan.

 

Ashara was always planned to be the male LI's love interest, so no, it's not a cop out. I think the cop out there is they decided to not let people kill companions, and maybe, I can only guess here, they could have left on their own if it made sense. As I stated in another thread, I find there's quite a few companions I wonder why they're still on the ship.

 

Only because they were dead-set against SGR at the time, as for companions leaving or coming to blows with the player, isn't that what companion gifts might still have a use for?

 

Eh it's really not a cop out:) We really didn't decide who the DA2 companions are...we were just lucky enough for our chosen LI to be who we want them to be. That is why I have a problem with people who insist DA2's characters are all bisexual. They are not. The only one who is is Isabella and maybe Anders....and possibly someone else I am forgetting, but Merrill...etc? As far as we know they just happen to be gay or straight:)

 

Exactly, we, the players, can decide who is what. It reminds me of Kotor 2, and how we could decide if Revan was LS/DS, or male/female. You simply need to compartmentalise every character's story, to some, Akaavi may be straight, to others, bi, or gay, for instance.

 

About Lana rescuing you...do we know....well...why? Does she sense you or something and search for you specifically or does she just...stumble on you? Because if it's the second option then no one of your chars will have a problem with her coming to the rescue....well maybe if you are a Sith...or maybe a JK....as you will be a ''damsel in distress'')

 

I'm sure my main sorc (bt1) wouldn't mind being such...

 

From what's been shown, yes she sensed you through the Force and came looking for you specifically.

 

How old is Lana when she does that?

Edited September 1, 2015 by sentientomega

[AbsolutGrndZero]

Eh it's really not a cop out:) We really didn't decide who the DA2 companions are...we were just lucky enough for our chosen LI to be who we want them to be. That is why I have a problem with people who insist DA2's characters are all bisexual. They are not. The only one who is is Isabella and maybe Anders....and possibly someone else I am forgetting, but Merrill...etc? As far as we know they just happen to be gay or straight:)

 

 

Actually David Gaider kind of said as much in an interview. That's why they are "playersexual" or "herosexual" and not bi. With exception of Isabela who actually is bi (and maybe Anders, although honestly I think if they hadn't gone the 'playersexual' route and it had been like DAI, then Anders would have been gay) The rest are literally whatever is necessary for the player. Now, I DO think that's a cop out. I really think it would have been cool if you could flirt with say Merrill as a woman and she says she really likes you but she needs to marry a man for her people or some such... or the opposite maybe... you flirt with her as a man and she's like sorry, we can be friends but I'm a lesbian. While the 'playersexual' thing (again, they are not bisexual... they are gay or straight as needed by the player) was nice in theory, I am very happy they ditched that idea with DA3, and you have like Sera that is a lesbian, Dorian that is also gay, and then you have a few bi characters than you have a few straight characters. And, you will note that you CAN flirt with Dorian as a woman. He politely turns you down. That's what I wish there was more of in this game... let us flirt with the lesbians... they turn us down (depending on our/their personality, nicely or rudely), or vice versa.

[SithKoriandr]

Then we're not playing a character in a story. We're not making choices in response to what we're given. That would just be making up everything as we go.

 

I might as well be able to have the Emperor meet my Knight, tell her how powerful she is and give up because he realizes just how powerful she really is.

 

No, the idea is, the character should be fleshed out, and then we have our characters respond to what's given.

[eartharioch]

Try both...

 

Try no, nothing about Pierce's attitude indicates that he would have said anything differently if it was a male team member who could secure the necessary resources by "taking one for the team". In my own experiences IRL, "take one for the team" is pretty much gender neutral and not exclusively applied to sexual situations, so just because Pierce happens to say this to a female (whose skills he respects enough to recruit for an important mission) team member when she is in the position to take one for the team doesn't give off any sort of anti-woman (i.e., misogynistic) attitude.

[Zandilar]

Ashara was always planned to be the male LI's love interest, so no, it's not a cop out. I think the cop out there is they decided to not let people kill companions, and maybe, I can only guess here, they could have left on their own if it made sense. As I stated in another thread, I find there's quite a few companions I wonder why they're still on the ship.

 

Ashara allowing herself to be romanced by a Dark V Inquisitor is the definition of playersexual in action.

 

1) If you take her with you as a Dark SI, and make dark choices in front of her - her affection goes down.

2) Low affection means that the romance won't be triggered, because her conversations won't be triggered

 

And then there's the part where the player can make her like them...

 

3) So you buy her gifts which raise her affection, and leave her on the ship so she doesn't witness the vast majority of the conversations.

 

Which results in...

 

4) Profit! She ignores your DS tendencies, even if you're full Dark V and visually darkside corrupted, and gets into a relationship with you.

 

Who did that? Not Ashara. The player did that.

[Foelhe]

Ashara was always planned to be the male LI's love interest, so no, it's not a cop out. I think the cop out there is they decided to not let people kill companions, and maybe, I can only guess here, they could have left on their own if it made sense. As I stated in another thread, I find there's quite a few companions I wonder why they're still on the ship.

 

...Not really getting your logic. If the writers had planned to make everyone playersexual from the start, then it wouldn't be a cop out? I doubt that's what you're saying, but I don't understand what you mean otherwise.

[SithKoriandr]

...Not really getting your logic. If the writers had planned to make everyone playersexual from the start, then it wouldn't be a cop out? I doubt that's what you're saying, but I don't understand what you mean otherwise.

 

I think the devs should have made the characters whatever they planned to make them from the start. Kaliyo for instace seems to have been bi, as well as DS Jaesa.

 

Was there any who seemed purely SG? Maybe a couple. I'm sure it never would've felt enough to a few people. Could be why they kept it out?

[sentientomega]

I thought it was LS Jaesa who seemed bi...? I know Kaliyo should've been...

 

And Akaavi should've been bi at the very least...

 

Among those gay, Talos Drellik immediately springs to mind.

 

As for why SGRs were kept out in the first place, if it wasn't for the reasons I think, I'm truly at a loss as to why.

Edited September 2, 2015 by sentientomega

[SithKoriandr]

I thought it was LS Jaesa who seemed bi...? I know Kaliyo should've been...

 

And Akaavi should've been bi at the very least...

 

Among those gay, Talos Drellik immediately springs to mind.

 

As for why SGRs were kept out in the first place, if it wasn't for the reasons I think, I'm truly at a loss as to why.

 

Talos, agreed. Unsure on Akaavi, she hasn't seemed to be in the convo's I've had with her but I'm just under 7k affection with her, so maybe I haven't gotten high enough yet. Or are you saying it because she's BT3?

 

Maybe they kept SGR's out because they didn't think they'd have enough options with it, because their concept characters didn't make sense for it, and they knew players would whine about it either way? Maybe better to have them whine about a lack than a "I have to play this class or play evil to have a sg romance"

 

One could say they could have gone in and just wrote them all to be bi or strictly sg but then one has to wonder, do you just change someone's writing for that? Usually people say "Don't let others change your vision of a character" but then, this thread seems to have a lot of the opposite on that.

 

Maybe it was a high up rule? guideline? Statement? We will likely never know.

[Diviciacus]

How old is Lana when she does that?

 

Napkin math says Lana's in her late 30's/early 40's in KOTFE.

 

Her codex entry places her on Hoth during the Treaty of Coruscant (13 years before Shadow of Revan), where she has enough force of personality and skill in the Force to stop both Imperial and Republic forces from attacking each other in the middle of a firefight. Since she already has considerably power more than a decade before we meet her, she's at least in her early to mid-20's then. Thirteen years later in SOR is mid to late 30's, and KOTFE is five years on top of that, too.

 

Maybe they kept SGR's out because they didn't think they'd have enough options with it, because their concept characters didn't make sense for it, and they knew players would whine about it either way? Maybe better to have them whine about a lack than a "I have to play this class or play evil to have a sg romance"

 

One could say they could have gone in and just wrote them all to be bi or strictly sg but then one has to wonder, do you just change someone's writing for that? Usually people say "Don't let others change your vision of a character" but then, this thread seems to have a lot of the opposite on that.

 

Maybe it was a high up rule? guideline? Statement? We will likely never know.

 

From what players pieced together in late beta from oblique and deflecting BIoware posts, SGR content was axed because it would cost more money than EA thought they'd gain by including it (since less than 10% of the population is [not purely straight]). However, they obviously failed to take into account that:

 

a) RPG players love our realism (within reason, of course; we do have FTL and lightsabers). LGBT people occur in real life. Why would they not occur in SW?

b) (Perhaps crucially) EA's bean counters seem to have not considered that more than just non-straight people will participate in SGR content.

 

The backlash made them reconsider enough to add what are OBVIOUSLY test NPC's: one homosexual, and one bisexual, in Rise of the Hutt Cartel. The test NPC's were clearly enough of a success that one each of male and female playersexual characters were added in SOR (a global test, if you will).

 

Considering the overwhelmingly positive reactions for Lana and Theron, I fully expect more and better SGR content to be in KOTFE, along with the (theoretically obvious) OGR romances.

[Foelhe]

One could say they could have gone in and just wrote them all to be bi or strictly sg but then one has to wonder, do you just change someone's writing for that? Usually people say "Don't let others change your vision of a character" but then, this thread seems to have a lot of the opposite on that.

 

SWTOR is a group project with a lot of writers. They have to make alterations to their work or the pieces might not fit together. I wouldn't exactly say they always have to change things, but generally you should start writing with an awareness of where you need to end up, and if you get off-course along the way you should at least try to step back and figure out how to get back to the original plan. That may not be an option in some cases, but it should be your first impulse.

 

That said, I've always been a little baffled at the a-writer's-work-is-sacrosanct argument, as much as it seems to be popping up pretty much everywhere. Writers should be flexible, and they should be able to make changes if that'll improve the work. I used to write as a hobby (not well, granted) and with the people I knew, if a writer couldn't take constructive criticism and make necessary changes, that was seen as a sign of emotional immaturity.

[SithKoriandr]

SWTOR is a group project with a lot of writers. They have to make alterations to their work or the pieces might not fit together. I wouldn't exactly say they always have to change things, but generally you should start writing with an awareness of where you need to end up, and if you get off-course along the way you should at least try to step back and figure out how to get back to the original plan. That may not be an option in some cases, but it should be your first impulse.

 

That said, I've always been a little baffled at the a-writer's-work-is-sacrosanct argument, as much as it seems to be popping up pretty much everywhere. Writers should be flexible, and they should be able to make changes if that'll improve the work. I used to write as a hobby (not well, granted) and with the people I knew, if a writer couldn't take constructive criticism and make necessary changes, that was seen as a sign of emotional immaturity.

 

Yes, but "Where's the gay character" is not constructive criticism.

 

Writing is considered an art. Even when done by a group. Not so sure one would consider it art when the bosses come in and say "write it this way" though

[SithKoriandr]

From what players pieced together in late beta from oblique and deflecting BIoware posts, SGR content was axed because it would cost more money than EA thought they'd gain by including it (since less than 10% of the population is [not purely straight]). However, they obviously failed to take into account that:

 

a) RPG players love our realism (within reason, of course; we do have FTL and lightsabers). LGBT people occur in real life. Why would they not occur in SW?

b) (Perhaps crucially) EA's bean counters seem to have not considered that more than just non-straight people will participate in SGR content.

 

 

I always thought they forgot to take into consideration of straight males/females being into yuri/yaoi

 

Let's look at it, many complain about Lana's face, but like I keep saying to them, they complain, but you know they romanced her

[Foelhe]

Writing is considered an art. Even when done by a group. Not so sure one would consider it art when the bosses come in and say "write it this way" though

 

If we're judging art by that standard, we've already kind of stopped doing it. Every companion fits into a group of five, and every group of five covers Ranged Tank/Melee Tank/Ranged DPS/Melee DPS/Healer. If a group of writers came up with a companion list with five tanks, they'd have to go back and change things to fit the game.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Foelhe

[SithKoriandr]

If we're judging art by that standard, we've already kind of stopped doing it. Every companion fits into a group of five, and every group of five covers Ranged Tank/Melee Tank/Ranged DPS/Melee DPS/Healer. If a group of writers came up with a companion list with five tanks, they'd have to go back and change things to fit the game.

 

Playing the agent, the only thing that makes me think of Kaliyo as a Tank is that she's listed as a tank.

[Zandilar]

Playing the agent, the only thing that makes me think of Kaliyo as a Tank is that she's listed as a tank.

 

Having played a sniper, trust me... she's definitely a tank. Not a great tank, but a tank.

 

I used her up until I spent the 300k to buy Treek.

 

Treek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every other companion at this point.

[SithKoriandr]

Having played a sniper, trust me... she's definitely a tank. Not a great tank, but a tank.

 

I used her up until I spent the 300k to buy Treek.

 

Treek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every other companion at this point.

 

I meant character wise. Gameplay wise, yup, total tank.

[Saelinne]

To be fair that's more of a gameplay problem than character (in this case Kaliyo's) one...she is non force user. I would expect for Temple or maybe Scorpio to be the tank in IA's crew...

....tho I suppose she might talk from time to time about her new armor and how much damage it can take and whatnot, but still....unless her species give her some amazing endurance....

[eartharioch]

 

Kaliyo is the ranged tank (good for sniper), SCORPIO is the melee tank (good for operative).

[Diviciacus]

Having played a sniper, trust me... she's definitely a tank. Not a great tank, but a tank.

 

I used her up until I spent the 300k to buy Treek.

 

Treek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every other companion at this point.

 

Treek is the cancer that rots the heart of this game.

[SithKoriandr]

Kaliyo is the ranged tank (good for sniper), SCORPIO is the melee tank (good for operative).

 

I have found Kaliyo and Vector (melee tank) to both be the better companions (gameplay wise) for my Sniper. I don't find Temple that bad, but it appears (to me anyways) that Sniper (and Gunslinger) can do well with a DPS companion over my DPS Con/Kni/War/Inq. So, that to me, is a welcome change. To beable to use a DPS companion.

[Zandilar]

I meant character wise. Gameplay wise, yup, total tank.

 

I think she's supposed to be a powertech bounty hunter - she's got the armour and some of the moves.

 

But I'm curious about this... what makes a character a tank? What is it about Kaliyo that makes you think she's not one?

 

ETA: Isn't Vector melee dps? I'm pretty sure SCORPIO is the Agent's melee tank.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Zandilar

[SithKoriandr]

I think she's supposed to be a powertech bounty hunter - she's got the armour and some of the moves.

 

But I'm curious about this... what makes a character a tank? What is it about Kaliyo that makes you think she's not one?

 

ETA: Isn't Vector melee dps? I'm pretty sure SCORPIO is the Agent's melee tank.

 

You know. I never looked at it that way. It's because when we get her, she's not in any armor, so I just wasn't looking at her as a Bounty Hunter style character.

 

Vector I get as melee dps, because he says he's been enhanced because of the joining. My guess is that puts him on a Jedi level for the physical aspects of things.

 

SCORPIO is the melee tank, my only issue with her, is her weapon. I have Cather Double Bladed electrostaff, and all she can use is techstaff, which haven't seen a good looking one of those yet.

[eartharioch]

SCORPIO is the melee tank, my only issue with her, is her weapon. I have Cather Double Bladed electrostaff, and all she can use is techstaff, which haven't seen a good looking one of those yet.

 

Yeah, I really wanted to give her the Firaxa staff from Manaan, but no, force user only.

[Asheris]

I have found Kaliyo and Vector (melee tank) to both be the better companions (gameplay wise) for my Sniper. I don't find Temple that bad, but it appears (to me anyways) that Sniper (and Gunslinger) can do well with a DPS companion over my DPS Con/Kni/War/Inq. So, that to me, is a welcome change. To beable to use a DPS companion.

 

But...Vector is a dps, SCORPIO is a melee tank

Vector is one of the best melee dps at that