Encourage World PvP - make Expertise ONLY work in WarZones

[Amyas]

NO. I can't kill Hard Mode operation Bosses with my WH gear....so you can't kill me with your Dreadguard gear.

 

Wanna do Outdoor pvp? Get some PVP gear.

 

^_^ making a stat not work would not cause more world pvp. goals and rewards would

[oofalong]

Warzones are clearly the realm of PvPers and thus Expertise. Flashpoints, Operations and other instanced areas are clearly the realm of PvEers. The Open World currently is a shared environment, presently there is much more incentive for PvEers to be in the Open World.

 

Here, they can earn rewards to improve their gear and complete their story quests. Unfortunately, the way the Open World is set up PvEers will never have an advantage over PvPers. That is, in the shared places where PvEers can work to improve their gear and progress, PvEers will at best be on equal footing - but most likely be at a disadvantage - to a PvPer. Fundamentally, this is flawed.

 

In short, the Open World favors PvE objectives, but favors PvP-geared players.

 

One way to correct this mismatch would be to eliminate the benefits of Expertise in the Open World as HoloTweed suggested. There are flaws with this as it effectively nerfs the best equipped PvPers. Still, there has to be a better way to balance Open World PvP and reward both players for their invested time and quality of gear. I think this is fundamentally what HoloTweed wants - although correct me if I am wrong.

 

Everyone should want this as it will promote more Open World PvP, including forum-planned events, impromptu battles and one-on-one duels.

Edited January 14, 2013 by oofalong

[HoloTweed]

Warzones are clearly the realm of PvPers and thus Expertise. Flashpoints, Operations and other instanced areas are clearly the realm of PvEers. The Open World currently is a shared environment, presently there is much more incentive for PvEers to be in the Open World.

 

Here, they can earn rewards to improve their gear and complete their story quests. Unfortunately, the way the Open World is set up PvEers will never have an advantage over PvPers. That is, in the shared places where PvEers can work to improve their gear and progress, PvEers will at best be on equal footing - but most likely be at a disadvantage - to a PvPer. Fundamentally, this is flawed.

 

In short, the Open World favors PvE objectives, but favors PvP-geared players.

 

One way to correct this mismatch would be to eliminate the benefits of Expertise in the Open World as HoloTweed suggested. There are flaws with this as it effectively nerfs the best equipped PvPers. Still, there has to be a better way to balance Open World PvP and reward both players for their invested time and quality of gear. I think this fundamentally what HoloTweed wants - although correct me if I am wrong.

 

Everyone should want this as it will promote more Open World PvP, including forum-planned events, impromptu battles and one-on-one duels.

 

^^ He gets it. Exactly.

[Drudenfusz]

Warzones are clearly the realm of PvPers and thus Expertise. Flashpoints, Operations and other instanced areas are clearly the realm of PvEers. The Open World currently is a shared environment, presently there is much more incentive for PvEers to be in the Open World.

 

Here, they can earn rewards to improve their gear and complete their story quests. Unfortunately, the way the Open World is set up PvEers will never have an advantage over PvPers. That is, in the shared places where PvEers can work to improve their gear and progress, PvEers will at best be on equal footing - but most likely be at a disadvantage - to a PvPer. Fundamentally, this is flawed.

 

In short, the Open World favors PvE objectives, but favors PvP-geared players.

 

One way to correct this mismatch would be to eliminate the benefits of Expertise in the Open World as HoloTweed suggested. There are flaws with this as it effectively nerfs the best equipped PvPers. Still, there has to be a better way to balance Open World PvP and reward both players for their invested time and quality of gear. I think this is fundamentally what HoloTweed wants - although correct me if I am wrong.

 

Everyone should want this as it will promote more Open World PvP, including forum-planned events, impromptu battles and one-on-one duels.

The problem is, that I don'T think that just removing the expertise is a solution in any way. I am pretty sure, many PvP players would leave the game if that happens, I certainly would. So, what all the PvP players are saying is that whatever you do, don't make the game that it also is better for PvE players and their raid gear in open world PvP.

 

So, I (and many other PvP players) want more open world PvP, but not one in which we have to do operations to get the best gear for that job.

[oofalong]

The problem is, that I don'T think that just removing the expertise is a solution in any way.

...

So, I (and many other PvP players) want more open world PvP, but not one in which we have to do operations to get the best gear for that job.

 

Perhaps HoloTweed's thread title should have been "How to Encourage Open World PvP?" S/He proposed one way - eliminate Expertise outside of Warzones. This clearly upset a number of people. Honestly, it isn't the ideal solution, but there has to be something that can be done. Again the underlying issue:

 

The Open World favors PvE objectives, but favors PvP-geared players.

 

So let's brainstorm worthwhile changes, I'll start:

 

• Allow people to have dual equip armor sets and have the respective fight draw on whichever is best. Clearly this is complicated what if I am attacking an NPC and a player attacks me. Still, at least it rewards people who have invested in PVP and people who have invested in PvE.
   
  
• Provide PvP rewards for Open World kills. Just as you get no credit for killing low level NPCs, you should not get credit for killing lower valor level players. However, if a lower valor player kills a higher valor player they should be rewarded. Again, there are some challenges with this as groups of players might have different valor level players.
  

These are two alternatives I just thought of, through more discussion perhaps we can find a viable option.

[HoloTweed]

The problem is, that I don'T think that just removing the expertise is a solution in any way. I am pretty sure, many PvP players would leave the game if that happens, I certainly would. So, what all the PvP players are saying is that whatever you do, don't make the game that it also is better for PvE players and their raid gear in open world PvP.

 

So, I (and many other PvP players) want more open world PvP, but not one in which we have to do operations to get the best gear for that job.

 

OK... so then how do you make it so WarZone PvP players don't have such an outrageous advantage in Open World PvP that takes place in the PvE world? Don't say "get recruit gear" because a) it isn't moddable and b) it's SOOOO ugly.

 

I don't know why "real" PvPers would want to have such an unfair advantage in the PvE world over players who would otherwise enjoy Open World fighting except that they have to either wear butt ugly armor (that gimps them doing the PvE quests that are the ONLY quests in Open World) or they have farm WarZones - and get roflstomped by those in Elite gear - to get moddable armor (that gimps them doing the PvE quests that are the ONLY quests in Open World) .

 

I love how PvPers threaten to quit if their advantage is taken away. It's fine for them to have better gear in the Open World (which is the PvE realm) but if they situation was reversed? Oh NOOOOO it's UNSUB time.

 

So fine, as I've said, let expertise function a DIFFERENT WAY in Open World, as long as it no longer gives WarZone players an advantage. That advantage should be reserved for WarZones ONLY.

[Drudenfusz]

OK... so then how do you make it so WarZone PvP players don't have such an outrageous advantage in Open World PvP that takes place in the PvE world? Don't say "get recruit gear" because a) it isn't moddable and b) it's SOOOO ugly.

 

I don't know why "real" PvPers would want to have such an unfair advantage in the PvE world over players who would otherwise enjoy Open World fighting except that they have to either wear butt ugly armor (that gimps them doing the PvE quests that are the ONLY quests in Open World) or they have farm WarZones - and get roflstomped by those in Elite gear - to get moddable armor (that gimps them doing the PvE quests that are the ONLY quests in Open World) .

 

I love how PvPers threaten to quit if their advantage is taken away. It's fine for them to have better gear in the Open World (which is the PvE realm) but if they situation was reversed? Oh NOOOOO it's UNSUB time.

 

So fine, as I've said, let expertise function a DIFFERENT WAY in Open World, as long as it no longer gives WarZone players an advantage. That advantage should be reserved for WarZones ONLY.

First, why do you call the open world a PvE world, I play on a PvP server, for me it is a PvP world, that just has also some PvE elements there, so it is not a PvE world for me. Look also to GW2, their eternal Battlegrouds are just there for PvP players, and still there are mobs there which you can fight and which have events attached to them.

 

PvP players are the once that want more than any PvE players the open world PvP to work, we chose our server for that reason. So, of course we are angree if suddenly PvE players would be better in the aspect of the game they never have done anything for and we would just be bad or had to grind some thing we don't like. Don't get me wrong, there are PvP players who also like doing some PvE stuff, and of course there are also PvP players who do not really like warzones, but would prefer to do open world PvP.

 

So, instead of removing Expertise, give players an otion to get PvP gear without having to do Warzones. Which was actually possible in the first months of this game, before the mercenary commendations were removed. I hope they will return with a revamped Ilum, so that you guys can get PvP gear without having to play warzones, but that means you might have to use the recruit gear for some weeks, just like any other player who hits 50 have to deal with it, not to have the best equipment from the start.

 

The only other option would be to make PvE and PvP gear completly the same, but I am pretty sure that some PvE players would complain then that PvP players just can do their operations on nightmare mode, while never having played an operation before, so they would feel cheated, just like PvP players would feel cheated if one just takes away the Expertise.

[HoloTweed]

Perhaps HoloTweed's thread title should have been "How to Encourage Open World PvP?" S/He proposed one way - eliminate Expertise outside of Warzones. This clearly upset a number of people. Honestly, it isn't the ideal solution, but there has to be something that can be done. Again the underlying issue:

 

The Open World favors PvE objectives, but favors PvP-geared players.

 

So let's brainstorm worthwhile changes, I'll start:

 

• Allow people to have dual equip armor sets and have the respective fight draw on whichever is best. Clearly this is complicated what if I am attacking an NPC and a player attacks me. Still, at least it rewards people who have invested in PVP and people who have invested in PvE.
   
  
• Provide PvP rewards for Open World kills. Just as you get no credit for killing low level NPCs, you should not get credit for killing lower valor level players. However, if a lower valor player kills a higher valor player they should be rewarded. Again, there are some challenges with this as groups of players might have different valor level players.
  

These are two alternatives I just thought of, through more discussion perhaps we can find a viable option.

 

I like your thinking EXCEPT it would still require Open World players to farm PvP gear to remain competitive against attacks on them in the Open World... and PvP gear (as those players themselves attest) are not as good as the PvE gear players would naturally be using performing PvE quests in the Open World.

 

So it therefore still falls to eliminating the current effects of Expertise in Open World and finding some way to let it buff by X% and Y% the Endurance and Main stats that a WarZone player has. In the end, everything should be relatively equal, based on the level and type (endurance, main stat, power, crit, etc.) of gear.

[oofalong]

First, why do you call the open world a PvE world, I play on a PvP server, for me it is a PvP world, that just has also some PvE elements there, so it is not a PvE world for me...

 

The reality is that even on a PvP server the Open World only features PvE objectives of value. If a player is in the Open World they should be in PvE gear to help them complete their PvE objectives. Anyone not in PvE has a different objective: to kill players of the opposite faction, which is fine if you are on a PvP server. The issue is that this puts the PvEers in the Open World at a severe disadvantage.

 

For example, if I am attacked by someone wearing PvP gear while questing in Section X - I have PvE equipped because I have a PvE objective - the fight will depend on skill, gear and expertise. Assuming equal skill and gear - Dread Guard vs. Elite Ware Hero - the PvEer will always lose due to expertise. Even varying skill and gear, the PvPer still has the advantage as they have another dimension to harness, expertise.

 

I like your thinking EXCEPT it would still require Open World players to farm PvP gear to remain competitive against attacks on them in the Open World... and PvP gear (as those players themselves attest) are not as good as the PvE gear players would naturally be using performing PvE quests in the Open World.

 

First off, I should have said my two bullet point ideas were meant to be either or, not both. In any event, I recognize that my first suggestion of allowing dual equipped armor would require people to do both PvP and PvE to be most competitive in the Open World. My response to this is simple: It's a PvP server!

 

In any event, I do not think this is a terribly widespread issue on my server at this time. Still, I do believe that finding a better balance for PvP gear in the Open World would ultimately improve Open World PvP.

[Drudenfusz]

For example, if I am attacked by someone wearing PvP gear while questing in Section X - I have PvE equipped because I have a PvE objective - the fight will depend on skill, gear and expertise. Assuming equal skill and gear - Dread Guard vs. Elite Ware Hero - the PvEer will always lose due to expertise. Even varying skill and gear, the PvPer still has the advantage as they have another dimension to harness, expertise.

If you are in PvE gear in Section X and someone in PvP gear attacks you, you still can win. All you have to do is to use the environment to your advangage, push the attacker in mob groups, so that he gets attackt be the mobs or run through a mob group and use stealth or find some other ways to get mobs attcking him, and suddenly the situattion might look much better for you. Winning in an open world PvP fight is not just about the gear, it's still about knowing what you are doing.

[oofalong]

If you are in PvE gear in Section X and someone in PvP gear attacks you, you still can win. All you have to do is to use the environment to your advangage, push the attacker in mob groups, so that he gets attackt be the mobs or run through a mob group and use stealth or find some other ways to get mobs attcking him, and suddenly the situattion might look much better for you. Winning in an open world PvP fight is not just about the gear, it's still about knowing what you are doing.

 

Like I said assuming equal skill and 63 quality gear, the PvPer will always win.

[toyfanatic]

Like I said assuming equal skill and 63 quality gear, the PvPer will always win.

 

No they won't. You being in Dread guard and me ganking you elite War Hero isn't a guarenteed win for me. There are several factors to take into account. The 17k hp smash monkey will have a horrable time killing the 32k hp tank. What if the one to be ganked is a healer? Or what if the defender is a oprative or gunslinger....the point is a master of ones class will not be a easy kill for the one who is ganking. Now you did say equal skill huh? That is a false ideal, the guys who troll the otherside think they are picking on the weaker players and they are all powerful. They will be killed just as often as they kill, they will miss judge several factors. The other faction might troll the hell out a the ganker, the weaker pray might be in a group. A good sumaritan might interceed in the defenders behalf. The defender might over power the attacker- heck I know the stealthers will run like hell if they think they might not easily win. I have never seen a an instance where repeat ganking has happened , and that the offender hasn't been taken out by a impromptu posse.

Here is a breif personal story. A 'sin snuck into the base on ilum and was ganking people, back before the devs corrected it. He came out of stealth and began his onslaught. I play a shadow too, and I had my pve gear on and he was wearing war hero. I had 10k more hp than him and my dps pet out who was also very well equiped. His heals pet was pretty ocupied with nadia- so he wasn't getting much healing. He was also taking damage from nadia's AoE's . He thought I would be a easy kill, he died with me having zero expertise and 2.5k hp left.

While that isn't a great tale , it serves the point it can be done. The guild I am with has a exceptional dps who goes into wz's with no pvp gear on( I reference to that in my earlier post) and he clean house.

Its not a definate win..

[HoloTweed]

No they won't. You being in Dread guard and me ganking you elite War Hero isn't a guarenteed win for me. There are several factors to take into account. The 17k hp smash monkey will have a horrable time killing the 32k hp tank. What if the one to be ganked is a healer? Or what if the defender is a oprative or gunslinger....the point is a master of ones class will not be a easy kill for the one who is ganking. Now you did say equal skill huh? That is a false ideal, the guys who troll the otherside think they are picking on the weaker players and they are all powerful. They will be killed just as often as they kill, they will miss judge several factors. The other faction might troll the hell out a the ganker, the weaker pray might be in a group. A good sumaritan might interceed in the defenders behalf. The defender might over power the attacker- heck I know the stealthers will run like hell if they think they might not easily win. I have never seen a an instance where repeat ganking has happened , and that the offender hasn't been taken out by a impromptu posse.

 

Here is a breif personal story. A 'sin snuck into the base on ilum and was ganking people, back before the devs corrected it. He came out of stealth and began his onslaught. I play a shadow too, and I had my pve gear on and he was wearing war hero. I had 10k more hp than him and my dps pet out who was also very well equiped. His heals pet was pretty ocupied with nadia- so he wasn't getting much healing. He was also taking damage from nadia's AoE's . He thought I would be a easy kill, he died with me having zero expertise and 2.5k hp left.

While that isn't a great tale , it serves the point it can be done. The guild I am with has a exceptional dps who goes into wz's with no pvp gear on( I reference to that in my earlier post) and he clean house.

Its not a definate win..

 

Fact of the matter is, Expertise always will give the PvPer a serious edge... you've already seen in this thread someone claim it took a group of PvErs to take him down... that's not "skill" that's the Expertise stat. So in your scenario? Yes, Elite War Hero will beat a Dread Guard character 95% of the time.

 

The scenarios in which a PvE player can take down an Expertise geared player only involve things like luck (in case the PvEr can use mobs or terrain in his favor, but generally the Expertise player takes that advantage) or the Expertise player happens to not have a companion out or finds himself against an overwhelming number of PvErs. Otherwise - still a roflstomp.

 

Expertise player versus Healer? Expertise player (unless the healer can escape).

 

Open World PvP takes place where there are only PvE missions. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept for some people to understand (unless they just refuse to give up the "I Win!" button of Expertise on general "I don't want to lose for any reason" principles.)

 

Open World PvP can be a blast - I'd just like to see a level playing field so that, in the Open World, both Expertised and PvE players don't get any inherent advantages because of the Expertise stat - or the lack of it. Other stats SHOULD continue to play their part as they did in levels 1 - 49.

[oofalong]

No they won't...

 

I'll modify my conditions: holding skill, gear level and role/adv class/etc equal the PvE equipped player will never win, at best they could force a stalemate such as two healers or two tanks going at it. Certainly as you start to vary these factors different results can happen.

 

I have no data to support this, but I perceive the following to be true:

Everyone laments the lack of Open World PvP. Some are so desperate for it that they suit up in their PvP gear and hunt down people, who are completing PvE objectives. Sometimes this results in a duel, sometimes this results in a mass guild vs. guild battle, but more often than not this result in the PvPer slaughtering the PvEer. This is overall damaging to Open World PvP. The PvPer did not have a meaningful Open World PvP experience, and the PvEer is irked because s/he has been delayed in completing their objective.

 

I'll liken it weather forcing your plane to divert from your intended destination due to weather. You'll get to your final destination eventually, but it is still an inconvenience. Certainly, you always have to allow for the possibility of weather delays, but you still hope it doesn't affect you.

 

To be clear my suggestion is to find someway to reward both PvP and PvE players for their respective investment in their tier of gear during Open World PvP, which is a shared environment. As I stated eliminating Expertise is not the way to do it, but I believe there is some way. And, this will result in more meaningful Open World PvP.

[Zalgred]

How about removing expertise from any kind of pvp!!!! Lets make pvp fun again!!! Like it is in lvls 10 to 49!

[Royox]

Am I the only one here who sees that it is stupid to do PVP stuff withouth PVP gear?

 

OUTDOOR PVP is PVP STUFF. So you need PVP gear.

 

Open World IS NOT "PVE only area". Here you have a pic to demonstrate it.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2nvq83b.jpg

 

"CONTESTED AREA (PVP)" You are playing in a PVP AREA. Bioware is telling you. The game is telling you. So it's not a "PVE world" or a "PVE area".

 

You don't wanna be facerolled by a PVP player? Get PVP gear to do PVP stuff.

 

Wanna do Sector X dailyes but PVP players are killing you? Go to a PVE server. They are doing PVP STUFF with PVP gear while you are trying to do PVE stuff with PVE gear.

 

You can't do PVE high end content with PVP gear. You can't do PVP stuff with PVE gear.

You

[DAWUSS]

I thought the key was to figure out what works best for you and not jump on the latest FOTM build.

[oofalong]

Am I the only one here who sees that it is stupid to do PVP stuff withouth PVP gear?

...

You can't do PVE high end content with PVP gear. You can't do PVP stuff with PVE gear.

You

 

To answer your first question, doing Section X dailies is not PvP content so I should not need to be equipped with PvP gear, right?

 

Anyways, I, for one, am not contesting that the Open World is a PvP area, but I feel you have to acknowledge that the only objectives of value in the Open World are PvE objectives, agreed? Further, since Expertise is not really a factor prior to level 50, PvP in the Open World prior to level 50 depends on skill, gear and adv class/role, agreed? (I am not counting the Cartel Expertise Crystals that are equipable at level 10.) At level 50 this changes as PvPers gain a large advantage over PvEers due to Expertise in Open World PvP holding all else constant, agreed?

 

Assuming you agree with my above statements, which you should because they are truths, how can you honestly not recognize the dissonance in the Open World where PvE objectives offer reward, but PvP gear offers better protection? Can some one from the other side of the debate refute or address my specific points above? I am very interested to hear a rationale defense.

 

Absent a rationale defense, I feel the only conclusion is that people want the Expertise advantage to make it easier to hunt players completing PvE objectives. If that is the entirety of the issue, then fine, but this only harms Open World PvP.

 

Perhaps this will all become moot thanks to 1.7 and the resurrection of Ilum as a meaningful PvP objective in the Open World. /fingers crossed

Edited January 15, 2013 by oofalong

[Master_Nate]

If what you want is to eliminate expertise altogether then...just make it so PvP players can earn equal level gear as PvE players, through PvP, and make set bonuses for each different, kind of how they are now. I'd be fine with the lack of expertise as long as I can earn the same gear as a PvE'r without having to step foot in any Operation. That way, if I ever wanted to run NiM EC and I only PvP, I can go in there and be equal to everyone there....cause that's what we are saying right?

 

Would also like the option to have all my gear crafted for me anyways to totally negate the grind of PvP, like you can with the PvE gear, so ya....let PvP players have access to gear that the PvE'rs have, stat wise, and maybe something like this would work. Funny thing is, I see lots of people claiming expertise is the bees knees and while it is nice to have some, we have guilds on our server that que for WZs in nothing but Dreadguard and Hazmat and they put up HUGE numbers without expertise so it can be done...even if some of you guys can't!

 

But seriously, I don't know if expertise is the problem with people here. It seems that PvE'rs want expertise removed so they aren't at the mercy of an Elite Warlord. That's fine, and Idk if anyone here is refuting that....as long as we, the PvP'rs, have access to the same stat gear as PvE'rs and can earn it the way WE want, then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

Some players don't enjoy WarZones. They shouldn't be forced to play them and have two sets of armor so they can also be competitive in Open World PvP (which occurs in a primarily PvE environment).

 

I've done both realms of this game so I wanted to chime in some as I have full 63s and Hazmats and also full min/max WH with some EWH as well. While I believe your point is to even out the playing field in oWPVP, some of your statements seem heavily PvE opinionated. PvP'rs should not be forced to run an operation and PvE'rs should not be forced into PvP, that much I do get and I think we'd agree. Unfortunately, I have to run dailys just to scrape by a living since there are barely any credits for PvP. No wonder the daily sections are overwhelming, there is little reward for PvP other than because you enjoy it. I can honestly say, I have not once enjoyed a daily run. If I could make enough credits through PvP then I, for one, would not be out in the world other than when I want to farm a new chest piece or some mats.

 

Also, it is a PvE environment but it is contested PvP zone. It's comparing apples to oranges at this point, so let's just call it the "open world", where you see NPCs I look for anything that is labeled red....regardless of what you and I see it as.

 

We can even touch on one other point, you want things to be like they were between 1-49? Is this level 1-49 oWPVP or is this WZ? I ask because I've never taken down a lvl 49 on my lvl 27 in an open world setting but can constantly in WZ. It may be that I get lucky but it could also be that I gear myself out with all purple armorings/mods/enhancements while leveling to have that ADVANTAGE while being low level and lacking abilities. My point being is that gear can play a role in those WZs too, it's not immune to this same concept. There is a twinking epidemic on our server. There is a twinking problem on The Bastion too, so gear is always going to be a factor in this game, one way or another sadly. My point is this, as long as a mutual agreement between the two genres can be reached, I don't see why not. I just don't think BW has an answer to this subject but are trying to work on it with their pvp revamp I keep hearing about.

 

So while this thread is a few pages long maybe I overlooked it and I apologize if you have to repeat yourself, hate when I have too, but what is your over all suggestion on this issue then besides removing expertise? What are your thoughts on making the open world environment more "even"?

 

Anyways, I, for one, am not contesting that the Open World is a PvP area, but I feel you have to acknowledge that the only objectives of value in the Open World are PvE objectives, agreed?

 

Define PvE Objective? We talking daily's on Belsavis, Black Hole, Ilum, etc? Or are you meaning world drops and creds? Either way, I can't say I agree with you on this. Why can't it be for both? I enjoy farming gear options and need credits to rip armorings and mods around too. It's not like I have no business doing this and I'm not doing it in the name of PvE...I do it in hopes to get a return so that I may have credits to buy warzone medpacs, adrenals, crystals, etc. I farm crafting mats for stims and augmentation kit mk-6's for gear too. Again, some of the statements in this thread seem very bias and opinionated and do not touch on the actual topic of removing expertise.

 

Okay, let's remove expertise but don't do it with the intent of frustrating one genre of people playing this game so you don't have to go up against that when we all know fully dressed Dread guard would eat lower tiered, tionese, geared folks the same as expertise stacked WH people can against those not in PvP gear. Everyone has a right to be in your PvE world and play this game the same regardless of what gear they are currently wearing.

 

My suggestion? Level cap the planets as they display in the HUD. Take Tatooine, which is lvl 24-28 maybe? I can't remember...but make it level capped. Meaning, sure you can come there as a level 50, but you only have abilities to lvl 28 and your skill tree reflects the order you chose your points. Your gear is still with you but capped, stat wise and with no expertise added. This variable would be the max level of the planet, so in this instance you would both be bolstered to 28. Of course this would take away ganking, but I'm not one to gank so I don't care.

 

I'm sure this would cause other problems in the later planets, ones post 50, but still another suggestion of how they could work things differently to this game and how it could be versus how it currently is.There are level 49 PvE armorings and what not, planets could be capped or bolstered based on these stats and I wouldn't care. There is no expertise in them either.

 

Once inside your "instance" or mission your stats are available so you can do your PvE thing.I think if you remove expertise stat from oWPVP encounters, then you have to level out gear for all planets, with the bolster system, or oWPVP on them will always be gear based anyways and that is the underlining problem, like it or not.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Master_Nate

[Royox]

To answer your first question, doing Section X dailies is not PvP content so I should not need to be equipped with PvP gear, right?

 

Anyways, I, for one, am not contesting that the Open World is a PvP area, but I feel you have to acknowledge that the only objectives of value in the Open World are PvE objectives, agreed? Further, since Expertise is not really a factor prior to level 50, PvP in the Open World prior to level 50 depends on skill, gear and adv class/role, agreed? (I am not counting the Cartel Expertise Crystals that are equipable at level 10.) At level 50 this changes as PvPers gain a large advantage over PvEers due to Expertise in Open World PvP holding all else constant, agreed?

 

Assuming you agree with my above statements, which you should because they are truths, how can you honestly not recognize the dissonance in the Open World where PvE objectives offer reward, but PvP gear offers better protection? Can some one from the other side of the debate refute or address my specific points above? I am very interested to hear a rationale defense.

 

Absent a rationale defense, I feel the only conclusion is that people want the Expertise advantage to make it easier to hunt players completing PvE objectives. If that is the entirety of the issue, then fine, but this only harms Open World PvP.

 

Perhaps this will all become moot thanks to 1.7 and the resurrection of Ilum as a meaningful PvP objective in the Open World. /fingers crossed

 

If it was not for the expertise Full Geared PVEr's would destroy any full geared PVP player. Expertise is the only stat that makes PVP gear to be PVP GEAR.

 

I understand what you say. It's true, unfair and ****....but this is an MMO and PVP players need to be more powerfull AT PVP STUFF than PVE players. I would be really pissed if a full Dread Guard player could destroy my full War Hero Vanguard (I don't always win those duels....but I am not full destroyed).

 

Look on the other way. A person full PVP geared will have a bad time trying to complete Sector X dailyes. PVP players are the "bad time" to PVE players.

 

Or you can look it for another more role-playing way: PVEr's chars doing dailyes are like "farmers" and PVP chars are chars who are experts on the art of "killing people".

[oofalong]

If what you want is to eliminate expertise altogether then...just make it so PvP players can earn equal level gear as PvE players...[/Quote]

 

Master Nate you raise a lot of good questions and perspectives. And, I like that you propose some new ideas. It sounds like I generally agree with you. I want to reward both types of players in the Open World for their investment in Operations or Warzones.

 

If I understand the Expertise math correctly, damage output isn't the issue; it is damage mitigation. That is, Expertise reduces all incoming damage from another player so while we both hit for 5,000 with Smash I will absorb all of it, while you would have it reduced by ~X%.

 

I say the Open World only has PvE objectives because the non-credit rewards are used to further PvE play, such as the new Dread Guard Relics or Rakata implants. These rewards are not at all optimized for PvP play. Certainly they could be used though.

 

Perhaps, the best thing is to eliminate Expertise altogether. If you eliminate Expertise, you would need to increase the stats on PvP gear accordingly.

 

If it was not for the expertise Full Geared PVEr's would destroy any full geared PVP player. Expertise is the only stat that makes PVP gear to be PVP GEAR.

...

Or you can look it for another more role-playing way: PVEr's chars doing dailyes are like "farmers" and PVP chars are chars who are experts on the art of "killing people"

 

You farmer example is interesting, but I think a bit flawed. I would say PvEers are experts at killing the things that naturally appear in the Open World while PvPers are experts at killing other players. Unfortunately, the way the game is now you do have to pick one to specialize in when questing in the Open World. Since you are only rewarded for killing the natural things in the Open World it makes sense to optimize for that, and doing so unfortunately leaves you vulnerable to other players.

 

EDIT: Whether you pick PvP gear or PvE gear you are at a disadvantage in the Open World - either PvP is unbalanced or killing NPCs, which give you rewards, is unbalanced. I think this is an issue we all would like solved.

 

Again my goal is to better balance Open World PvP, which I believe will encourage more of it.

Edited January 15, 2013 by oofalong
Additional information

[Master_Nate]

Master Nate you raise a lot of good questions and perspectives. And, I like that you propose some new ideas. It sounds like I generally agree with you. I want to reward both types of players in the Open World for their investment in Operations or Warzones.

 

If I understand the Expertise math correctly, damage output isn't the issue; it is damage mitigation. That is, Expertise reduces all incoming damage from another player so while we both hit for 5,000 with Smash I will absorb all of it, while you would have it reduced by ~X%.

 

I say the Open World only has PvE objectives because the non-credit rewards are used to further PvE play, such as the new Dread Guard Relics or Rakata implants. These rewards are not at all optimized for PvP play. Certainly they could be used though.

 

Perhaps, the best thing is to eliminate Expertise altogether. If you eliminate Expertise, you would need to increase the stats on PvP gear accordingly.

 

Okay now I understand your reasoning a little better in regards to the PvE "objective", the relics, schematics and what not. I read through most of this thread and it seemed that some people had issues with players in the daily section but those sections are the ones you will run into geared out PvP'rs because the credits needed to rip out mods and what not, if you PvE you know this can get costly. Along with credits for med packs and all the bells and whistles. It gets very expensive and without something like these dailys, it's hard to maintain multiple toons and roll new ones with customization that subscribers are used too.

 

I'm all for bolstering stats to be on a level playing field for oWPVP, in fact I'd encourage it. I would not remove expertise from WZ as there are many theory crafters out there so I still see some unique set ups and who knows which is best, I don't but others seem too.

 

Thanks for responding with a clear answer. Forums can be touchy for some and I try not to troll or pose fights, I just have to ask things some time to get a better understanding of what the REAL problem is as threads sometimes get off topic with personal views and opinions.

 

As long as both PvE and PvP'rs could compete in Open World PvP at the same level then I'd be fine with that, no matter where the gear came from. As it is, that is wishful thinking and that's why I mentioned the bolstering system of planets. I know many would hate it but there could be certain planets it worked on an others didn't. Most people do tend to love the lower brackets but it is still gear based to an extent. If BW can work through some of these things, which I'm not sure they can, then maybe more oWPVP will come.

 

While PvE gear can hold it's own, it won't in an oWPVP setting against equivalent geared PvP toon. It may against one opponent but even then, it's questionable. So just so we are clear, I do understand what you and others are saying.

 

In the defense of PvP players, they do not want to see their grind go under and that's how some of them view this thread, and I get that too. That is why I tried to suggest the bolster system or something like that. Yelling back and forth about whose route to epic loot is tedious. You are right....we should all feel rewarded in our own system but still be able to have something in common, such as this world pvp.

 

I may not be able to do HM OPs in WH, but I can run 100% of the dailys with it, not counting the Section X area because I don't go out there. But I can complete all of Ilum, Belsavis, and BH with my Sorc, Marauder, and Operative in full WH gear, which is out in the open world. I'm only sharing this fact because of the naysayers who compare HM OPs to regular WZ. While the comparison is kind of silly, a better comparison would be HM OPs to RWZ, but as you may or may not know, RWZ aren't overabundant so regular warzones it is:D I can do SM OPs in WH, recruit even...so where is this division in genres? I'd say have to compare things that are more close like HM OPsand RWZ. Don't get me started on NiM because that will mess up my rant

 

 

Regardless, I think BW is already making a change and it's coming soon. Whether we all will agree on it, we won't know for a few months now. The way I hear it, they are stopping with expertise gains and only improving stats once the new xpac comes out. Now, I have no reference or links but at least with this idea, people will have a chance to even out and only stats will be better, but I do not think you will ever see the elimination of expertise out in the open world and I'm not certain how they would implement that into a PvE equivalent to make everyone happy

Edited January 15, 2013 by Master_Nate

[toyfanatic]

How about removing expertise from any kind of pvp!!!! Lets make pvp fun again!!! Like it is in lvls 10 to 49!

Is this a serious reply?

Your proposal is completly oposite of the subject sir. This thread is on open world pvp not set match pvp. It has been said before- the Dev's don't want pve gear to be BiS in pvp. If they went with with your idea all the elite raiding player will now have a leg up in pvp. Why it solves the OP's request all the guys like me who grinded out hazmat and elite war hero would be pissed.

The OP has stated he doesn't have a issue with warzones, he just wants expertise to be void outside of warzones. The Dev's logic to how expertise works is not in my understanding, but I understand their attempt to balance pve versus pvp gear in stats. The complete removal of pvp gear would have alot of players sending hate mail, because of all the time and effort that it takes to earn a goods set of pvp gear. I see the point of balance , but there will always be a difference because of the gear.

I find it ironic that many players use elite war hero main hands in pve.....funny huh?

[Royox]

Since you are only rewarded for killing the natural things in the Open World it makes sense to optimize for that, and doing so unfortunately leaves you vulnerable to other players.

 

Again my goal is to better balance Open World PvP, which I believe will encourage more of it.

 

Aaah! But there was a time, 1 year ago, when players were rewarded by killing other lvl50 players. They get Mercenary medals and they could use them to buy the first PVP set of the game. The GLADIATOR set (does not exist now). It was a lower item lvl set than Champion.

 

Nowadays when you kill another lvl50 player you earn Valor points...so you have a reward too.

[oofalong]

Nowadays when you kill another lvl50 player you earn Valor points...so you have a reward too.

 

Really, you are going to argue that Valor from Open World PvP is meaningful?