Power Creep

[SickTag]

So I just thought that I would bring this up as a discussion and get people's thoughts on it. I would love to hear other players thoughts on weather or not they feel its (Power Creep) already happening to SWTOR, and if they think BioWare should be on the lookout for ways to deal with it.

 

For those that don't know what power creep its we have

video, And the following definition provided by a wiki entry.

 

Great post! Don't think Bioware is very aware of power creep...

[zerorsw]

Great post! Don't think Bioware is very aware of power creep...

I'm sure they're aware of the idea of power creep, so weather or not they actively worry about it during the development process of content i'm not so sure about anymore.

[_Darkstar]

Power creep is a good thing. I like getting stronger and I don't care if that means I have less challenge, I do not play for challenge.

[_Darkstar]

The second part of power creep that is dangerous imo, is when content is released that has no incentives to revisit older content (IE: lower level planets here)

That is nothing to do with power creed and entirely to do with the loot system and focus on endgame content.

[zerorsw]

have all of you watched the youtube video a linked? I feel like some people don't really understand what power creep is.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

I think power creep is inevitable in any system with progression. As long as it's slowed to reasonable levels, it's not a terrible thing since by the time players get powerful enough that content is trivialized, they've already consumed that content several times over. I don't care that BT hard mode is now trivial. I must've ran it 20 or 30 times already across all my toons. That's why MMO's need expansions, to start the experience over with fresh content.

 

As for the video, I don't think the dude really understands MMOs. In MMOs, there's no such thing as incomparables, a dedicated theorycrafting community will assign a numerical value to absolutely everything. He used the ability to teleport as an example. That was similar to the Unholy Death Knight talent in WOTLK that increased your movement speed by 15%. Boss fights involve a lot of movement, and over at Elitist Jerks they calculated the expected increase in time-on-target from the move speed increase and the corresponding dps gain. You could make the same calculation about a teleport. The ability to stun something would also have a numerical value based on the expected damage output of the target during the period, but since MMO's don't generally let you stun bosses, no one would take it for PvE.

[mavix]

I think power creep is inevitable in any system with progression. As long as it's slowed to reasonable levels, it's not a terrible thing since by the time players get powerful enough that content is trivialized, they've already consumed that content several times over. I don't care that BT hard mode is now trivial. I must've ran it 20 or 30 times already across all my toons. That's why MMO's need expansions, to start the experience over with fresh content.

 

As for the video, I don't think the dude really understands MMOs. In MMOs, there's no such thing as incomparables, a dedicated theorycrafting community will assign a numerical value to absolutely everything. He used the ability to teleport as an example. That was similar to the Unholy Death Knight talent in WOTLK that increased your movement speed by 15%. Boss fights involve a lot of movement, and over at Elitist Jerks they calculated the expected increase in time-on-target from the move speed increase and the corresponding dps gain. You could make the same calculation about a teleport. The ability to stun something would also have a numerical value based on the expected damage output of the target during the period, but since MMO's don't generally let you stun bosses, no one would take it for PvE.

 

Do you understand MMOs? And that not all MMOs have vertical progression?

 

I don't know how much more powercreep will affect the elder game but I'm hoping it won't make all the current operations trivial. At worst it will make EV NM like SM and the most recent operation can be completed with blue/purple 55 gear without having to raid for months to get rakata+. With the addition of Black hole gear they seemed to realize the need for keep the raise in item power under control but now, as someone already said with the augments, it's is too much. Oh well, the powercreep was expected and the only thing it really hurts is PvP, which I have no interest in. (Progress> Skill = not fun)

[Arkerus]

I think power creep is inevitable in any system with progression. As long as it's slowed to reasonable levels, it's not a terrible thing since by the time players get powerful enough that content is trivialized, they've already consumed that content several times over. I don't care that BT hard mode is now trivial. I must've ran it 20 or 30 times already across all my toons. That's why MMO's need expansions, to start the experience over with fresh content.

 

As for the video, I don't think the dude really understands MMOs. In MMOs, there's no such thing as incomparables, a dedicated theorycrafting community will assign a numerical value to absolutely everything. He used the ability to teleport as an example. That was similar to the Unholy Death Knight talent in WOTLK that increased your movement speed by 15%. Boss fights involve a lot of movement, and over at Elitist Jerks they calculated the expected increase in time-on-target from the move speed increase and the corresponding dps gain. You could make the same calculation about a teleport. The ability to stun something would also have a numerical value based on the expected damage output of the target during the period, but since MMO's don't generally let you stun bosses, no one would take it for PvE.

 

The folks making that series are very smart and often travel to game developers and assist them with projects.

 

I don't always agree with them but not all MMOs need vertical progression. I'm not even saying power creep is always bad, I'm just saying there is more to the gaming world than vertical progression.

[RogueDiplomacy]

The "power creep" I'm most worried about isn't the numbers being pumped out. It's the number of relevant abilities that we have to track.

 

I would be perfectly comfortable culling some of those abilities from our rotations and simplifying things a bit. Or making certain abilities share cooldowns, so that it's clear that the variations of that ability are meant for different AC's or specs.

 

I just hate having to macro so many different things. I'd love it if we could get it down to 12 abilities that we actually use in rotation.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

Do you understand MMOs? And that not all MMOs have vertical progression?

 

I don't know how much more powercreep will affect the elder game but I'm hoping it won't make all the current operations trivial. At worst it will make EV NM like SM and the most recent operation can be completed with blue/purple 55 gear without having to raid for months to get rakata+. With the addition of Black hole gear they seemed to realize the need for keep the raise in item power under control but now, as someone already said with the augments, it's is too much. Oh well, the powercreep was expected and the only thing it really hurts is PvP, which I have no interest in. (Progress> Skill = not fun)

 

It's not a question of if the current operations become trivial, it's a question of when. As new content is added and gear grows in power, eventually everything becomes trivial. And besides becoming trivial, it'll become obsolete. People become tired of running the same operations, and when level 55 greens become better than EV drops, there will only be a few nostaligists running it.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

The folks making that series are very smart and often travel to game developers and assist them with projects.

 

I don't always agree with them but not all MMOs need vertical progression. I'm not even saying power creep is always bad, I'm just saying there is more to the gaming world than vertical progression.

 

I was probably unfair to them, in that they weren't really focused on MMOs and had a better case on other genres. Mea culpa.

 

That said, I suppose while horizontal progression in an RPG is theoretically possible, I have yet to see a practical system for it. The Secret World is a perfect example of a failed attempt. When you give everyone the exact same trees, all you do is create homogenization and make balancing a lot harder. They created this system where you could choose from a wide variety of options for progression, and then everyone hit the Blue Mountains and needed a cookie cutter spec. People who had tried to diversify had to go back and grind old quests for awhile to get the necessary points.

 

"Non-vertical progression" is one of those things like breaking the trinity. It sounds really awesome in the abstract, but the application has yet to work out well.

[Majspuffen]

"Non-vertical progression" is one of those things like breaking the trinity. It sounds really awesome in the abstract, but the application has yet to work out well.

 

GW2 is doing it for their PvP.

 

With horizontal scaling, new content would add to the game, not diminish it. Today, as I sit on the fleet and reflect upon the past, it feels like SWTOR has less than what it had a year ago. There are two active operations; TfB HM and EC NM. There is one flashpoint... There are five warzones, so okay, we got some more content there... but at the same time, Ilum is gone. So we do not have an option outside of Warzones. We have two new daily areas... and dailies, as content, isn't fun. It's just to add more grind to the game.

 

Incoming Worlf of Warcraft talk, if you are unfamiliar with the game and/or outright hate it, stop reading!

 

I look back on TBC with fond memories. They succeeded with Vertical Scaling in that game. Adding badge gear was a mistake, but I can forgive them for it. The daily grinds were good for money, but at the end of those grinds you had a freaking nether drake waiting for you. Or a nether ray. Heck, I farmed all the reputations to exalted because I wanted the tabards. All cosmetic rewards. Those were awesome and fun grinds. I could do them when I wanted, not because I needed.

 

Then in contrast, we have WLK. Sons of Hodir. Quests that you -had- to do if you wanted to compete at end game, because they offered more stats. It didn't become an option, it became a must.

 

Somehow, with this text, I want this point to get through; Vertical scaling hasn't been working since TBC in WoW. Ever since, Vertical Scaling has only diminished end games and made them grindy. In TBC, end game was only grindy if you were in a top end raiding guild. I wasn't, back at the time. Took me a long time to get through all the tiers. I actually never set foot in the Sunwell Plateau, but I didn't whine about it. That was the ultimate goal. It was awesome. There was always something to strive towards. MMOs doesn't have that anymore, and that is probably because they've started to cater to disorganized and lesser skilled players, which isn't bad but... it just doesn't work with vertical scaling.

 

Also, gear progression has no place in PvP >_< ... I like to see new level 50s on my server but gee,do they wear the team down. Not because of their inexperience, but because it takes like 3 GCDs for a fully geared player to kill them.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Majspuffen

[SamuraBob_Fl]

 

I look back on TBC with fond memories. They succeeded with Vertical Scaling in that game. Adding badge gear was a mistake, but I can forgive them for it. The daily grinds were good for money, but at the end of those grinds you had a freaking nether drake waiting for you. Or a nether ray. Heck, I farmed all the reputations to exalted because I wanted the tabards. All cosmetic rewards. Those were awesome and fun grinds. I could do them when I wanted, not because I needed.

 

Then in contrast, we have WLK. Sons of Hodir. Quests that you -had- to do if you wanted to compete at end game, because they offered more stats. It didn't become an option, it became a must.

 

Somehow, with this text, I want this point to get through; Vertical scaling hasn't been working since TBC in WoW. Ever since, Vertical Scaling has only diminished end games and made them grindy. In TBC, end game was only grindy if you were in an top end raiding guild. I wasn't, back at the time. Took me a long time to get through all the tiers. There was always something to strive towards. MMOs doesn't have that anymore, and that is probably because they've started to cater to disorganized and lesser skilled players, which isn't bad but... it just doesn't work with vertical scaling.

 

I'm partially with you. I can't comment on GW2 because I haven't played it.

 

I'd suggest that what you're talking about isn't scaling. What I got is that you liked doing dailies for cosmetic rewards, as opposed to having to do them for shoulder enchants. I'd largely agree with that.

 

However, I don't think cosmetic rewards really qualify as progression as the term is generally applied to RPG's. I think we're more talking things that improve the functionality of characters, not their appearance.

[Majspuffen]

However, I don't think cosmetic rewards really qualify as progression as the term is generally applied to RPG's. I think we're more talking things that improve the functionality of characters, not their appearance.

 

That's what levelling is for. Levelling is fun progression, because you get skill points and more abilities in addition to more stats. Once you reach level 50 in this game, you get support wheels because Bioware is fully aware of how awful the grind is. I commend them for handing out the recruit set for free, but I still think it is a shame that they even have to do that.

 

Heck, they even send "how to play!"-guides in the mail when you reach 50, giving out free Tionese comms. I've been playing this game since day 1, but those "guides" were very confusing to me. You shouldn't have to be hand-held when you reach level 50, that's when the world is supposed to open up for you to explore. But instead, everything's linear, even at end game. It kind of have to be, with vertical scaling. Shuffled one direction to climb a new ladder, rather than exploring an open field with lots of variation.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Cindikle]

GW2 is doing it for their PvP.

 

With horizontal scaling, new content would add to the game, not diminish it. Today, as I sit on the fleet and reflect upon the past, it feels like SWTOR has less than what it had a year ago. There are two active operations; TfB HM and EC NM. There is one flashpoint... There are five warzones, so okay, we got some more content there... but at the same time, Ilum is gone. So we do not have an option outside of Warzones. We have two new daily areas... and dailies, as content, isn't fun. It's just to add more grind to the game.

 

Incoming Worlf of Warcraft talk, if you are unfamiliar with the game and/or outright hate it, stop reading!

 

I look back on TBC with fond memories. They succeeded with Vertical Scaling in that game. Adding badge gear was a mistake, but I can forgive them for it. The daily grinds were good for money, but at the end of those grinds you had a freaking nether drake waiting for you. Or a nether ray. Heck, I farmed all the reputations to exalted because I wanted the tabards. All cosmetic rewards. Those were awesome and fun grinds. I could do them when I wanted, not because I needed.

 

Then in contrast, we have WLK. Sons of Hodir. Quests that you -had- to do if you wanted to compete at end game, because they offered more stats. It didn't become an option, it became a must.

 

Somehow, with this text, I want this point to get through; Vertical scaling hasn't been working since TBC in WoW. Ever since, Vertical Scaling has only diminished end games and made them grindy. In TBC, end game was only grindy if you were in a top end raiding guild. I wasn't, back at the time. Took me a long time to get through all the tiers. I actually never set foot in the Sunwell Plateau, but I didn't whine about it. That was the ultimate goal. It was awesome. There was always something to strive towards. MMOs doesn't have that anymore, and that is probably because they've started to cater to disorganized and lesser skilled players, which isn't bad but... it just doesn't work with vertical scaling.

 

Also, gear progression has no place in PvP >_< ... I like to see new level 50s on my server but gee,do they wear the team down. Not because of their inexperience, but because it takes like 3 GCDs for a fully geared player to kill them.

 

I agree with a few things you said, but overall I felt that WotLK was a good expansion. Although Hodir was overall required, you could of also gone inscription(?) and gotten their profession bonus which was the same enchant slot. There was an option. Maybe not a good one, but it did exist. And I didn't mind Hodir for being on a PvP server. It brought a lot of world pvp with it being a "must do if you don't have this profession".

 

But keep in mind the huge difference between that and Black Hole or Section X. There was an end to the grind at Hodir. You did not need to continue doing it to get the rewards once you got exalted. This game doesn't make end to any of it's grinds other than levels. And with that lack of "end" there is no real reward to strive for. Like those drakes. This game rewards players horribly. It's overall all gear. Sometimes a pet. Sometimes a mount. But mostly just gear. It's boring. WoW always rewarded you for the grind. TBC is such a great example of this. But Wrath did a perfectly fine job on it as well. Why people hate on wrath so much I don't understand too much. Naxx was kind of drawn out and ToC ruined the end game grind(IMO). And the talent tree change later in the game, which helped a lot of balance problems that too many players didn't want to see. Sadly Cata continued the trend of ToC which is where I stopped playing and I hear nothing other than how it got worse.

 

Staying on topic:

I don't understand the fear of power creep. I see it as lazy people not working to continue to work to keep their gear up to day. And if it's looks, they overall have made nothing but modable gear into the game since launch.

 

I have yet to play GW2 and have no intention of trying it. I saw what it was and saw that it wouldn't hold up to the hype it got. From what I understand it's PvE system is a joke. And all it has is PvP, which is boring and limited overall. But is still mostly skill based. Which is it's sole attraction. If you want that go look up Forge on Steam. Same thing, for $20. And it's overall enjoyable. A few things that make it feel overpowered. But so far that's usually a stacked team. If the game gets more players to fill in the gaps I could easily see it leading MMO style PvP in the right direction.

 

Overall(IMO), power creep for PvE is needed, power creep for PvP is the bane of it's existence. I just can't take MMO PvP seriously because I don't feel it's skilled based. I feel PvE is more skill based because you're not getting that piece of gear if your group sucks. In PvP you still get rewarded for losing.

[zerorsw]

Thou shall live again!

 

Now that I've resurrected this topic, I thought I might once again rehash my original post. Originally I wanted to see how, or what people thought about the concept of Power Creep in concerns specific to SWTOR. I feel now is a great time to open the discussion back up, since we've got a second large content addition to the game and enough time has gone by.

[Defecter]

Well, wouldn't the (new) bolstering in PvP count as a measure implemented to keep power creep in check? At least on the PvP-side of the fence. Granted, the system is far from perfect, but it makes the gap which was gigantic pre-2.0 a lot more overseeable.

 

That being said, I returned from a long hiatus (just post 2.0 when I left) and notice next to no power creep in PvE. Sure, my gear is a tad outdated, but not to the point where I can't use it and there are several easy ways to get back on the curve (without spending CC or anything similar).

 

So no, I don't think that at this point in time, power creep is a big issue for this game. It needs to be monitored, but unlike some other games, it's pretty good imho.

[KarmaForce]

The only power creeps I see are 14 year old kids on the Imp side that send their bis legacy gear to the pub side to troll ops. (I know I stretched the definition)

 

This may be a power creep.

Legacy gear should be restricted to one faction. People should not be able to switch factions on a whim and have bis gear

 

 

Also, if you are referring to GSF as the second large content addition, it has nothing to do with the ground game. Terrible.

Edited December 19, 2013 by KarmaForce

[Marb]

Bioware is definitely aware of power creep

 

When makeb launched they revisited all the tertiary stats to ensure they had room for further vertical progression, and that meant that current gear became devalued dramatically as you increased in level.

 

I think power creep will always be kept in check, to the point where each time we have a level cap increase, it will be to acquire the stats we used to have at the previous level cap, not a linear increase on top of what we already had at the previous level cap.

 

Numbers will continue to get bigger though, so number bloat will be an issue if this game has a long lifespan.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Marb

[Loc_n_lol]

PvE perspective : I'd say it could become a problem if we get another level-cap raising extension that makes the current ultimate gear as relevant as dread guard gear is now (slightly worse than starter gear at the new cap). The tertiary stats are kept in check by diminishing returns, but it's mostly the health and damage numbers that keep inflating. Back when the level cap was 50, if you had 20k+ HP you were probably pretty well geared, now you can double that number.

 

Where does it go from here ? Where does it stop ? How much current content will be made irrelevant/ a faceroll by another level cap raise (see Ilum, the black hole, section-x, level 50 HMs, classic ops). In fact, with just 2 more levels, player characters would become virtually invincible in level 50 content and stop gaining experience from it.

 

Even without a level cap raise, there has been an increase in power across the board when they shuffled around what each type of commendation could buy and introduced 78 gear. What used to be the exclusive domain of nightmare raiders has become accessible to everyone (minus the set bonus), except better. This has also made a lot of endgame content (lvl 55 HM FPs, SM ops) easier than it should be, and their rewards largely meaningless.

 

I understand there needs to be something to look forward to that keeps you playing, but it doesn't necessarily have to be more power, or at least not a whole new complete tier of gear.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Loc_n_lol

[GatorAndy]

The only power creeps I see are 14 year old kids on the Imp side that send their bis legacy gear to the pub side to troll ops. (I know I stretched the definition)

 

This may be a power creep.

Legacy gear should be restricted to one faction. People should not be able to switch factions on a whim and have bis gear

 

 

Also, if you are referring to GSF as the second large content addition, it has nothing to do with the ground game. Terrible.

 

Besides the fact that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I felt the need to respond to your post.

 

Why shouldn't I be able to transfer my legacy gear between factions? That's the whole point of the LEGACY.

Edited December 19, 2013 by GatorAndy

[dipstik]

i dont think power creep is inevitable in this game. it may seem liek it because the gear required to down soa is different than that required to down hm council, but those are metered gages with specific targets. the fact that they nerfed shield, absorb, and crit in 2.0 shows that they have targets and gages in mind. if you plot the secondary or tertiary stat budget against item level, you will see exactly what they have in mind. the fact that the healing requirements have remained steady over the past year in ops is promising... but i think time to kill in pvp may need to be more scrutinized than other metrics in order to ensure power creep does not stifle dynamic game play.

[zerorsw]

Besides the fact that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I felt the need to respond to your post.

 

Why shouldn't I be able to transfer my legacy gear between factions? That's the whole point of the LEGACY.

 

While i'm not wagging the proverbial finger at you or anything for asking the question, I would like to ask that everyone stay on topic.

[Marb]

Power creep is a minor drawback, the biggest issue is how huge chunks of content become obsolete every time we get a level cap increase or a new raid tier.

 

Unless Bioware implements a sustainable alternate advancement system, along with a horizontal progression model, numbers will continue to get bigger and content will continue to become irrelevant. Vertical progression doesn't create sustainable content, it makes content consumable and irrelevant on the next tier/level cap increase. I've brought it up before, but the legacy system is a hugely underutilized feature that could be revamped into a horizontal progression model.

 

Considering the consumable nature of story chapters (only playable once per toon) and the vertical post level cap gear progression, the future of swtor doesn't look good unless they move away from the vertical progression model. Power creep/number bloat will be the least of this game's issues down the line, and are just some of the inevitable consequences of this type of progression model.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Marb