Kaggath Heats: Traya vs Plagueis

[Dhamploc]

Forgive me, but I fail to see your point

 

The thing I was trying to get at with the Post Severing Traya questions was that depending on the exact nature of how that severing worked on a fundamental level could actually act a as a defense in Traya's favour. If the Sever puts a barrier between the midichlorians in her cells and the rest of the Force, midichlorian manipulation would be totally useless against her - the seperation works both ways. She can't access the Force, but the Force can't access *her*.

 

If that were the case, Plagueis would have hands down, no advantages whatsoever against her (except for potentially being able to kill Sion).

Edited January 7, 2013 by Dhamploc

[Aurbere]

But manipulation of midichlorians doesn't neccessarily require close proximity.

 

Plagueis and Sidious kicked off Anakin's conception over a decade in advance on another planet.

He wouldn't be able to yoyo her life back and forth like Darth Venamis, but he wouldn't need to.

 

I may be wrong, but didn't The Force make Anakin in retaliation for Plagueis and Sidious trying to do some crazy ritual (again, still haven't read Plagueis).

 

And besides Sever Force puts a cage around the target. It blocks a Force users connection to The Force by forming a cage of Force energy around their mind. Something Traya has done in combination with Force Drain to instantly kill three Jedi Masters.

 

I really don't see your point here.

[Beniboybling]

But manipulation of midichlorians doesn't neccessarily require close proximity.

 

Plagueis and Sidious kicked off Anakin's conception over a decade in advance on another planet.

He wouldn't be able to yoyo her life back and forth like Darth Venamis, but he wouldn't need to.

That was Plagueis, that was the Force striking back! POW!

 

And I see your point now. But you severely overestimate Plagueis' ability to manipulate midichlorians. It took concentration and close proximity. And all he manipulated were half dead or incapacitated. He's never been shown to use it as some kind of 'attack' move. Sure he could incapacitate Traya, but he'd have to defeat her first, and then may as well kill her the old fashioned way. It would give him an edge over Sion however.

[Dhamploc]

I may be wrong, but didn't The Force make Anakin in retaliation for Plagueis and Sidious trying to do some crazy ritual (again, still haven't read Plagueis).

 

Yeah, they were trying to manipulate the midi-chlorians to have them create a being of pure Force. By killing another Sith over, and over, and over again.

 

They got half of what they wanted.

 

From what I've gathered of the ritual, and the various theories around exactly what happened, it would be much more likely to work if they'd tried to use the same technique to perform a "light" act (like killing a powerful Sith) rather than a "dark" one .

Edited January 7, 2013 by Dhamploc

[StarSquirrel]

Wow, this would be a scary fight.

 

I'd place my money on Traya. She just has the combination of cunning, solid powerbase, and resourcefulness it would take to bring Plagueis down. Scion is a match for Maul but neither of them could kill the main combatants.

 

I actually believe this will be one of those few fights that will end in a 1v1. The two will chase each other across the galaxy (their minions spread out fighting each other) eventually coming to a face to face confrontation on near even ground. From here Traya will exploit Plagueis's lack of pre-cog and sometime during their duel, she'll slip an attack past his defenses from a different angle/direction and finish him off. It'll be close but Traya imo will win.

[Segastorm]

The thing with plaegius......what minions?

[Aurbere]

The thing with plaegius......what minions?

 

The Sun Guard and any people he could hire with his wealth.

 

But really, Traya's assassin army is more than enough to deal with Plagueis' 'minions.'

[Wolfninjajedi]

The Sun Guard and any people he could hire with his wealth.

 

But really, Traya's assassin army is more than enough to deal with Plagueis' 'minions.'

 

Not entirely sure on that...the Sun Guard looking them over are well trained, and the Sith Assassin's ability to go invisible is rather pointless due to the Sun Guard's visors being able to see in infrared and only a few of the assassins actually used lightsabers, and The Force, the majority just used pikes, stealth belts and the like(though some could use Force Camo). But then you go to the more higher and better Sith Assassins, then yes the Sun Guard would be outclassed there.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Canino]

Not entirely sure on that...the Sun Guard looking them over are well trained, and the Sith Assassin's ability to go invisible is rather pointless due to the Sun Guard's visors being able to see in infrared and only a few of the assassins actually used lightsabers, and The Force, the majority just used pikes, stealth belts and the like(though some could use Force Camo). But then you go to the more higher and better Sith Assassins, then yes the Sun Guard would be outclassed there.

 

Or, ya know, just send Sion to Sojourn to kill them all. And yes, he could hire more, and Sion could kill them as well. It would be a viscous cycle. The real question is whether Plagueis would send Maul to face this menace (Pun not intended), and if Traya would even send Sion to do such a thing...

[Wolfninjajedi]

Or, ya know, just send Sion to Sojourn to kill them all. And yes, he could hire more, and Sion could kill them as well. It would be a viscous cycle. The real question is whether Plagueis would send Maul to face this menace (Pun not intended), and if Traya would even send Sion to do such a thing...

 

Point but I don't think Traya would do so, that would seem kinda overkill whereas she could be sending Sion to do other things. The Sith Assassins would be a good match though, was just merely stating that the Sun Guard could keep up at least with the majority of them who aren't all force sensitive.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Canino]

Point but I don't think Traya would do so, that would seem kinda overkill whereas she could be sending Sion to do other things. The Sith Assassins would be a good match though, was just merely stating that the Sun Guard could keep up at least with the majority of them who aren't all force sensitive.

 

My point exactly. I figured she wouldn't, but you have to consider all options.

[Warren-Stride]

Woah woah. Hold up. Plagueis is going to be very hard to kill.

Remember how he can stop people from dying?

 

Plagueis + Maul + Sun Guard = Healer + Tank + DPSers

 

Except the SI healer can spam Static Barrier 24/7.

 

If Plagueis can keep his allies from dying, all he needs to do is have Maul with him, and suddenly his apprentice can't die. If assassins want to get to Plageis, they'll have to go through Maul.

 

Let's also not forget that Plagueis may not have spidey-sense, but he still has the Force. He'll be able to sense the assassins coming. As will Maul. G0-T0's assassins were droids, and therefor he couldn't sense them either. But the assassins Traya has aren't droids, they're people.

 

Speaking of people assassins, Plaguies has Heart Stun. He can freeze his enemies (even stealthed) in place, then fry the room with lightning. He was also a master of Force Speed and fought with two lightsabers. He's a warrior in his own right.

 

Assassination for Plagueis is out of the question. He'll fend them off with Maul (+ Sun Guard) at his side. And then he'll make his way to Malachor. But that's for another post.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[MasterMe]

Woah woah. Hold up. Plagueis is going to be very hard to kill.

Remember how he can stop people from dying?

 

Plagueis + Maul + Bodyguards = Healer + Tank + DPSers

 

Except the SI healer can spam Static Barrier 24/7.

 

If Plagueis can keep his allies from dying, all he needs to do is have Maul with him, and suddenly his apprentice can't die. If assassins want to get to Plageis, they'll have to go through Maul.

 

Let's also not forget that Plagueis may not have spidey-sense, but he still has the Force. He'll be able to sense the assassins coming. As will Maul. G0-T0's assassins were droids, and therefor he couldn't sense them either. But the assassins Traya has aren't droids, they're people.

 

Speaking of people assassins, Plaguies has Heart Stun. He can freeze his enemies (even stealthed) in place, then fry the room with lightning. He was also a master of Force Speed and fought with two lightsabers. He's a warrior in his own right.

 

Assassination for Plagueis is out of the question. He'll fend them off with Maul (+ Sun Guard) at his side. And then he'll make his way to Malachor. But that's for another post.

 

Good point BUT can Plagueis beat Traya + Traya's army + Traya academy?

 

I firmly believe that the end of this fight will occur on Malachor V. Why? Well look at Traya's army's structure: they're mostly built for sneaky, assassiny (not a word lol), guerilla warfare type stuff. So the only place where Plagueis can even attempt to hurt Traya's army for the most part will be Malachor V.

 

I'm sure Plagueis can infiltrate Malachor V, but I don't think he can beat Traya + Trayus academy + storm beast. In this battle Traya has a huge home advantage and she has a MUCH larger force. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Plagueis's healing powers can counter all that Traya has...

[Warren-Stride]

Good point BUT can Plagueis beat Traya + Traya's army + Traya academy?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Plagueis's healing powers can counter all that Traya has...

 

That remains to be seen, BUT Plaguies + Maul could totally take down Sion.

 

Well..... it would be a stretch. But if he buys a Stealth Field generator.... and a personal shield generator.... and has a lot of bacta and stims... And then also has Maul and his guards protecting him and fighting for him, who can't die.... they could very well fight their way through Malachor.

 

Remember: Plaguies may be able to be killed (with difficulty, seeing as he's super fast and a skilled fighter) but that's the only way anyone will be able to kill Maul or the Sun Guard if they're near him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That remains to be seen, BUT Plaguies + Maul could totally take down Sion.

 

Well..... it would be a stretch. But if he buys a Stealth Field generator.... and a personal shield generator.... and has a lot of bacta and stims... And then also has Maul and his guards protecting him and fighting for him, who can't die.... they could very well fight their way through Malachor.

 

Remember: Plaguies may be able to be killed (with difficulty, seeing as he's super fast and a skilled fighter) but that's the only way anyone will be able to kill Maul or the Sun Guard if they're near him.

 

How can his guards not die? Bacta and stims are only going to do so much if the plan is to just straight up attack Malachor V without any base camps to fall back on. Has Plaguies ever shown to bring people back from the dead on a large scale, or instantneously or at all, or can he only keep the person from dying? If its the latter case, then he can still lose men.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[GarfieldJL]

Given the fact both Plagueis and Traya were not really under the rule of two, Traya didn't have it when she was around (she was before Bane), and Plagueis really didn't care cause he let Sideous take Maul as an apprentice, I don't really see how this would end up being a fight to the death...

 

Considering her research of the force and Plagueis's ability to manipulate the force and potentially stave off death, I really don't think either of them would want to kill the other off for the time being.

 

I could see Sion being killed off (he's a loose canon), Maul may still be alive because he followed orders, but I really don't see Traya and Plagueis bumping each other off... Cause in some ways they are too like minded, so I think this would end up in a draw because neither one would want to kill off the other cause of the knowledge that would be lost...

[Beniboybling]

Given the fact both Plagueis and Traya were not really under the rule of two, Traya didn't have it when she was around (she was before Bane), and Plagueis really didn't care cause he let Sideous take Maul as an apprentice, I don't really see how this would end up being a fight to the death...

 

Considering her research of the force and Plagueis's ability to manipulate the force and potentially stave off death, I really don't think either of them would want to kill the other off for the time being.

 

I could see Sion being killed off (he's a loose canon), Maul may still be alive because he followed orders, but I really don't see Traya and Plagueis bumping each other off... Cause in some ways they are too like minded, so I think this would end up in a draw because neither one would want to kill off the other cause of the knowledge that would be lost...

While outside of the Kaggath that would be a reasonable point, inside the Kaggath that can't happen. Rules dictate:

 

No surrender. Fight to the death!

[konstadinosblue]

damn I just missed to threads....:(

[Warren-Stride]

Question: Does anyone know how Plagueis "saves his allies from death"?

 

Because the way I see it, Maul and all Plagueis's guards are gonna be exactly like a bunch of Sions when he's around. If he can prevent them from dying, they won't die.

 

However, I don't know if this means like prevents them from DYING, dying, or prevents them from getting an arm chopped off. You can keep a head alive, but if there's no body it's useless.

 

So what does Plagueis's "Midichlorian Manipulation" actually do?

 

 

Either way, he's at least going to act as a sheild for those around him. Blaster bolts will do nothing against his troops. Maul won't die from getting stabbed. Etc. Midicholrian Manipulation will be a big factor when Plagueis goes on the offensive.

[Aurbere]

I really don't see a way for Plagueis to win this one. Traya has so many ways to kill him without even being around.

 

1. Orbital Bombardment. She has the fleet for it.

2. Direct invasion. Not as likely to work as Orbital Bombardment, but she has thousands of minions.

3. Assassination. Plagueis has a lack of precognitive abilities which makes him vulnerable to assassination, but not Maul.

 

So here is how I see things going down. Traya sends the majority of her forces to wherever Plagueis is hiding out and a battle takes place: The Triumvirate led by Sion versus the Sun Guard led by Maul (I don't think Plagueis will participate in the battle). During the battle, Assassins sneak into Plagueis' base/home/HQ and kill him. If Plagueis is apart of the battle, the Assassins wait for him to return and then kill him.

 

If none of that works, Traya bombards the planet.

 

Question: I am aware of the Sun Guard and what they can do, but how many are there? And how many does Plagueis have with him?

[Wolfninjajedi]

The Sun Guard was big enough to have legions though legions did vary in various organizations though the highest is 10,000 men, though it doesn't say specifically how many the organization was big enough for legions of men. Should note that the Sith Triumvirate didn't do open battles because it was small(except for the battle of Onderon supported by Vaklu and Telos IV which they used whatever they had left), and it also didn't have a proper command structure(which the Sun Guard does have) so this all factors in just how this all plays out. Edited January 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

The Sun Guard was big enough to have legions which is 10,000 men, though it doesn't say specifically how many the organization was big enough for legions of men. Should note that the Sith Triumvirate didn't do open battles because it was small, and it also didn't have a proper command structure(which the Sun Guard does have) so this all factors in just how this all plays out.

 

True, the Triumvirate doesn't have the numbers to pull off a proper invasion. Just an option.

 

I still think Orbital Bombardment or Assassination would work. Not much Plagueis can do without a fleet. He could just buy one, but how effective are they going to be against the Ravager?

[Warren-Stride]

I really don't see a way for Plagueis to win this one. Traya has so many ways to kill him without even being around.

 

1. Orbital Bombardment. She has the fleet for it.

2. Direct invasion. Not as likely to work as Orbital Bombardment, but she has thousands of minions.

3. Assassination. Plagueis has a lack of precognitive abilities which makes him vulnerable to assassination, but not Maul.

 

So here is how I see things going down. Traya sends the majority of her forces to wherever Plagueis is hiding out and a battle takes place: The Triumvirate led by Sion versus the Sun Guard led by Maul (I don't think Plagueis will participate in the battle). During the battle, Assassins sneak into Plagueis' base/home/HQ and kill him. If Plagueis is apart of the battle, the Assassins wait for him to return and then kill him.

 

If none of that works, Traya bombards the planet.

 

Question: I am aware of the Sun Guard and what they can do, but how many are there? And how many does Plagueis have with him?

 

1. Orbital Bombardment on Coruscant? Easier said than done, it's gained many defenses over the years, since, say, Malgus's time.

 

2. Thousands of troops on Coruscant won't do you much.

 

3. If Plagueis has Maul with him, problem solved. Also, the assassins can be sensed through the Force. Plagueis can sense them through the Force.

 

In a full out war, where his enemies know who and where he is, and if they're that close, yeah Plagueis will be in the battle. Keeping his troops alive with the Midichlorian Manipulation, using Heart Stun, Force Speed, Dual lightsabers. Cutting people apart. Maul will also not leave his side, seeing as that could mean death by assassins. And if Sion is leading the charge, the two will easily kill him. The Exile was able to sense the assassins through the Force, and she was just regaining her abilities. Plaguies is not blind to the Force, far from it. Maul and him will be able to sense them. He might not be able to sense the DANGER they present, but he will still be able to sense their presense. And Plaguies and Maul can both hold their own in a battle with the assassins.

[Wolfninjajedi]

True, the Triumvirate doesn't have the numbers to pull off a proper invasion. Just an option.

 

I still think Orbital Bombardment or Assassination would work. Not much Plagueis can do without a fleet. He could just buy one, but how effective are they going to be against the Ravager?

 

Well the Ravager is just a Centurion-class battle cruiser. So lets take a look at the specs..

 

Centurion Battle Cruiser

 

Length: 1,200 meters

 

Hyperdrive: Class 2.0, Backup 8.0

 

Armament: 6 medium turbolaser cannons, 6 heavy ion cannons, 6 light point defense lasers, proton torpedo launcher.

 

Compliment: 96 Sith Interceptors

===

 

There are several capital ships, I can think of that would blow the Ravager away. But what is Plagueis allowed to have in terms of what he is able to aquire? Can he use resources from the Hutt Cartel and the InterGalactic Banking clan?

[Aurbere]

1. Orbital Bombardment on Coruscant? Easier said than done, it's gained many defenses over the years, since, say, Malgus's time.

 

2. Thousands of troops on Coruscant won't do you much.

 

3. If Plagueis has Maul with him, problem solved. Also, the assassins can be sensed through the Force. Plagueis can sense them through the Force.

 

In a full out war, where his enemies know who and where he is, and if they're that close, yeah Plagueis will be in the battle. Keeping his troops alive with the Midichlorian Manipulation, using Heart Stun, Force Speed, Dual lightsabers. Cutting people apart. Maul will also not leave his side, seeing as that could mean death by assassins. And if Sion is leading the charge, the two will easily kill him. The Exile was able to sense the assassins through the Force, and she was just regaining her abilities. Plaguies is not blind to the Force, far from it. Maul and him will be able to sense them. He might not be able to sense the DANGER they present, but he will still be able to sense their presense. And Plaguies and Maul can both hold their own in a battle with the assassins.

 

Well the Ravager is just a Centurion-class battle cruiser. So lets take a look at the specs..

 

Centurion Battle Cruiser

 

Length: 1,200 meters

 

Hyperdrive: Class 2.0, Backup 8.0

 

Armament: 6 medium turbolaser cannons, 6 heavy ion cannons, 6 light point defense lasers, proton torpedo launcher.

 

Compliment: 96 Sith Interceptors

===

 

There are several capital ships, I can think of that would blow the Ravager away. But what is Plagueis allowed to have in terms of what he is able to aquire? Can he use resources from the Hutt Cartel and the InterGalactic Banking clan?

 

Good points.

 

So let's say Plagueis, Maul and the Sun Guard go to Malachor V. The Sun Guard is not going to last long against the planet itself. So they are basically removed from the equation as are any hired guns that Plagueis might bring along(would he do that?). So it's just Plaguies and Maul vs. Traya, Sion, the Trayus Academy, Storm Beasts, and Malachor.

 

Doesn't look too good for Plagueis now. Though Plagueis has a good chance of taking down Traya one-on-one. Maul not so much. This depends on whether Plagueis and Maul can fight past those mentioned above.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, Malachor actually helps Plagueis.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aurbere