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Kaggath Heats: Traya vs Plagueis

Beniboybling

By Beniboybling
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MasterMe

MasterMe

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Yep, yep. I remember that.

 

So he can still bring others back from the dead, yes?

 

I'm just going off of memory here, but I think he can only "keep others from dying."

 

This, to me, implys that he can save them as they're dying and that the ability is only effective off the battle-field.

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MasterMe

MasterMe

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Given that it was theorized that Plagueis could possibly undermine his apprentice should they duel, I would say that gives Plagueis the upper hand against most opponents.

 

And Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

Certainly one could say the Exile could stand a chance against Maul, but not Plagueis.

 

Back on topic: I see the battle going down in two ways.

 

1. Traya wins by either bombarding Sojourn or sabotaging Plagueis' personal shuttle.

2. Plagueis wins by going straight to Malachor and bringing everything he has to bear on Traya, resulting in only him standing at the end. He would then bring his followers back from the dead like some kinda necromancer :D

 

The Exile has killed some impressive people too. But you're right, we should stay on topic. Exile vs Maul can await another day.

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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I'm just going off of memory here, but I think he can only "keep others from dying."

 

This, to me, implys that he can save them as they're dying and that the ability is only effective off the battle-field.

Sort of, he kind of can resurrect people. He did it before with one Sith, just kept killing him and bringing him back to life. But I doubt he can resurrect a stale corpse, just someone who hasn't passed on into the Force.

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MasterMe

MasterMe

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Sort of, he kind of can resurrect people. He did it before with one Sith, just kept killing him and bringing him back to life. But I doubt he can resurrect a stale corpse, just someone who hasn't passed on into the Force.

 

I see. But he's not gonna be able to use it in the heat of battle is he? That's be kind of over-powered...

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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No I get it Beni, I guess I just find it sort of ridiculous that just because of 1 thing out of many other factors despite what the other combatant is capable of that the former would win just because they are in a place where it would be nigh impossible to get to.

 

I know what you mean. A few of the combatants in this tournament have those kinds of advantages. Traya has Malachor, G0-T0 has his yacht, Malgus has his space station.

 

But there are ways to get past these advantages. A powerful Dark Sider can get through the Trayus Academy. There are ways to board G0-T0's yacht, as well as Malgus' space station.

 

Can these advantages be unfair? Sure, look at Revan vs. Traya. It all depends on how one side uses their tools to overcome the overwhelming odds. Revan didn't have those tools, but Plagueis does. It depends on whether he can use them before Traya enacts an overly complicated plan (because she's been known to do that :p).

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MasterMe

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No I get it Beni, I guess I just find it sort of ridiculous that just because of 1 thing out of many other factors despite what the other combatant is capable of that the former would win just because they are in a place where it would be nigh impossible to get to.

 

I know how you feel. Just look at the Revan thread. If Traya didn't have Malachor V, then she would have been beaten for sure. Oh well. That's life. :(

 

BUT don't become hopeless that there's no one else out there to beat her. I imagine Exar Kun and his hybrid army will overrun Malachor V with relative ease...

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Warren-Stride

Warren-Stride

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I have a few points to make:

 

1. isn't Sion immortal? How is Plagueis gonna beat such a man. Sion will just keep coming and keep coming. It doesn't matter if Plagueis can beat him over and over again, Sion will always get back up. Aventually, Plagueis will grow tired and will die. Is there some uber-special ability of Plagueis that can counter Sion?

 

2. Traya let the Exile in. What would be different for Plagueis, Maul, and a handful of Sunguards trying to get to the heart of Malachor? This: Traya and her forces aren't gonna be sitting in their rooms twittling their thumbs until Plagueis arrives, they'll be making surprise attacks, fortifying defenses, and what-not. All the exile had to do was beat each of the Sith in their individual rooms. That's not very hard to fight them one-at-a-time. Plagueis will not have the luxury of fighting them one-at-a-time. He'll get swarmed. Due to Traya's better knowledge of the terrain and Plagueis's lack of precognition, Surprise attacks will be extremely effective against Plagueis. I could see him never making it to the heart of Malachor. So don't assume that Plagueis and Maul can get to the heart of Malachor just because the Exile did.

 

3. Somebody said earlier that the Sunguard are, for the most part, not force-sensetive. This will have zero effect on Malachor. With that in mind, imagine this:

 

Traya + Sion + Trayus Academy + advanced precognition + advantage of defense + superior knowledge of terrain

VS

Plagueis + Maul - Plagueis's lack of pregonition abilities

 

Traya wins.

 

1. Apparently Sion can be Force-choked into submission. So Maul chokes Sion while Plagueis goes on?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTF9xu50Hb0 Also, Maul is sorta like a new Sion if Plagueis is using his Midichlorian Manipulation on him. So it would be a Sion vs. Maul-Sion and Plagueis.

 

2. Skip to 2:50.

"Give her ever respect" does not sound like "Let her walk through the Academy". Traya said to throw everything Sion had at her to test if she was worthy. Also, swarming would be in Plagueis's favor. He has crowd control abilities. Force wave, heart-stun. And then he could zip around super-fast and kill everyone in one go. Swarms would just make his job easier. Also, apparently Plaguies now has precognition, so assassins or surprise attacks won't be nearly as effective.

 

3. I am very confused about this. The Exile's companions did just fine on Malachor. Who's to say people will go crazy? Have we ever seen a regular person go crazy on Malachor?

Edited by Warren-Stride
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MasterMe

MasterMe

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1. Apparently Sion can be Force-choked into submission. So Maul chokes Sion while Plagueis goes on?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTF9xu50Hb0 Also, Maul is sorta like a new Sion if Plagueis is using his Midichlorian Manipulation on him. So it would be a Sion vs. Maul-Sion and Plagueis.

 

2. Skip to 2:50.

"Give her ever respect" does not sound like "Let her walk through the Academy". Traya said to throw everything Sion had at her to test if she was worthy. Also, swarming would be in Plagueis's favor. He has crowd control abilities. Force wave, heart-stun. And then he could zip around super-fast and kill everyone in one go. Swarms would just make his job easier. Also, apparently Plaguies now has precognition, so assassins or surprise attacks won't be nearly as effective.

 

3. I am very confused about this. The Exile's companions did just fine on Malachor. Who's to say people will go crazy? Have we ever seen a regular person go crazy on Malachor?

 

3. What? Seriously? Revan lost the Traya vs Revan Kaggath because his troops couldn't land on Malachor and he was thus underhanded for charging Malachor. Beni needs to sort this out.

 

Either the Sun Guard are useless on Malachor, or the Revan vs Traya Kaggath needs to be re-thought (meaning this: Revan should have won the Kaggath).

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Aurbere

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3. What? Seriously? Revan lost the Traya vs Revan Kaggath because his troops couldn't land on Malachor and he was thus underhanded for charging Malachor. Beni needs to sort this out.

 

Either the Sun Guard are useless on Malachor, or the Revan vs Traya Kaggath needs to be re-thought (meaning this: Revan should have won the Kaggath).

 

The Sith Soldiers that you see within the Academy have been tested within the Trayus Core(the pinnacle of Malachor's Dark energies). Revan would take Jedi into the Trayus Core to test their will and turn them to the Dark Side. The Soldiers under Traya's command also experienced the power of this nexus and were corrupted by it.

 

One could assume the Sun Guard could withstand the Dark energies of Malachor. However, one could also assume that they can't. The Force-sensitive members of the Guard should be able to, but then again, that number is fairly low.

 

It should also be important to note that the Sith Soldiers had been in the presence of several Dark Side nexuses(is that plural). They were in the presence of the Dark energies of the Valley of the Dark Lords and the Star Forge. So that also aided in their "resistance" to Malachor's energies.

 

Edit: And you are still mad about that. Revan's chances in this tournament would be far less had he been the victor in that battle. Why? Because Traya turned him to the Dark Side. :)

 

Edit again: I think we've pretty much debated the ins and outs here. My opinion: Traya wins if she can strike quick and hard(using her oh so subtle style), but Plagueis wins if he goes to Malachor before Traya strikes.

 

Edit once again: I feel that Traya's strengths are in taking apart large armies. Smaller, more flexible, forces seem to be her achilles heel.

Edited by Aurbere
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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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Aurbere you sure about that last bit? It doesn't really seem like Traya can take on a larger force with her own forces. I mean she can't even do a proper invasion of a planet, at best her army would be able to take over a large stronghold(but given how big the Sun Guard is and how well trained thats debatable). Fleet wise? Well considering she would already have a fleet, compared to Plagueis then ya she has the advantage there(but I don't see why Plagueis wouldn't have his own private fleet to transport his Sun Guards) but ground advantage? Not so much. Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Aurbere

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Aurbere you sure about that last bit? It doesn't really seem like Traya can take on a larger force with her own forces. I mean she can't even do a proper invasion of a planet, at best her army would be able to take over a large stronghold.

 

Not entirely lol :)

 

I was just reading over the Traya vs Revan thread and took into consideration how she can pick apart a large force with her assassins. I feel that Plagueis (or someone like G0-T0) is a bit less susceptible to such a tactic.

 

You are right about her military, I was just referring to the assassins.

 

Edit: I keep missing your edits (things are slow here so I'm lurking the forums :)).

Edited by Aurbere
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Warren-Stride

Warren-Stride

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One could assume the Sun Guard could withstand the Dark energies of Malachor. However, one could also assume that they can't. The Force-sensitive members of the Guard should be able to, but then again, that number is fairly low.

 

I just don't like that the fact that Malachor is invinsible to a full on invasion is based on a "fact" that we have no real proof even happened. If we have no examples of normal, non-force user soldiers going crazy on Malachor, why is it the focal point of Traya's defenses?

 

Basically, there's no proof that this argument is true, so why are we acting like it is? I have yet to see lore/cannon evidence that soldiers are corrupted by Malachor to the point that they aren't able to battle.

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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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Not entirely lol :)

 

I was just reading over the Traya vs Revan thread and took into consideration how she can pick apart a large force with her assassins. I feel that Plagueis (or someone like G0-T0) is a bit less susceptible to such a tactic.

 

You are right about her military, I was just referring to the assassins.

 

Edit: I keep missing your edits (things are slow here so I'm lurking the forums :)).

 

Oh sorry. XD But the assassins here would have equals(at least the average/majority ones) given the Sun Guards, are specifically trained in CQC and nothing else and also having weapons intergrated into their armor. The assassin's stealth is the biggest advantage, and thats taken away due to the Sun Guard's visor which can see in infer red thus they would get a heat signature. As far as I know Revan's forces, weren't trained to the extent of CQC specifically. The Guard's armor have

 

Vibroblades in their gauntlets

 

Flamethrowers and dart launchers under their arms.

 

The forearm gauntlets could be heated as could the fist plates burning their targets.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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I just don't like that the fact that Malachor is invinsible to a full on invasion is based on a "fact" that we have no real proof even happened. If we have no examples of normal, non-force user soldiers going crazy on Malachor, why is it the focal point of Traya's defenses?

 

Basically, there's no proof that this argument is true, so why are we acting like it is? I have yet to see lore/cannon evidence that soldiers are corrupted by Malachor to the point that they aren't able to battle.

 

I can't provide evidence of non-Force sensitives going mad, but I can go one better:

 

Revan was nearly destroyed by the Dark energies of Malachor V by simply walking its surface. He only survived through sheer force of will. Malachor broke Jedi and killed those who couldn't resist. Even Meetra Surik was affected by the Darkness.

 

Does that change your opinion? It was the best I could do on short notice. :)

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Aurbere

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Oh sorry. XD But the assassins here would have equals(at least the average/majority ones) given the Sun Guards, are specifically trained in CQC and nothing else and also having weapons intergrated into their armor. The assassin's stealth is the biggest advantage, and thats taken away due to the Sun Guard's visor which can see in infer red thus they would get a heat signature. As far as I know Revan's forces, weren't trained to the extent of CQC specifically. The Guard's armor have

 

Vibroblades in their gauntlets

 

Flamethrowers and dart launchers under their arms.

 

The forearm gauntlets could be heated as could the fist plates burning their targets.

 

That's some heavy duty equipment!

 

I have to agree that the Sun Guard can handle the lesser trained assassins. Dark Jedi and Elite Assassins, I'm a little hesitant on.

 

Edit: Then again, that's what Maul is for.

Edited by Aurbere
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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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That's some heavy duty equipment!

 

I have to agree that the Sun Guard can handle the lesser trained assassins. Dark Jedi and Elite Assassins, I'm a little hesitant on.

 

Dark Jedi/Sith Masters and them? Ya no, the Sun Guard would get the **** kicked out of em. The Sun Guard that are Force Sensitive however could stand a better chance, given they would have at least enhanced reflexes and given their pikes having cortosis on them they would last longer but may just end up dying anyway too.

 

The question is though, just how many in Traya's army are Dark Jedi? Seems to me the majority of the assassins, were the guys in dark black suits and masks.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Dark Jedi/Sith Masters and them? Ya no, the Sun Guard would get the **** kicked out of em. The Sun Guard that are Force Sensitive however could stand a better chance, given they would have at least enhanced reflexes and given their pikes having cortosis on them they would last longer but may just end up dying anyway too.

 

The question is though, just how many in Traya's army are Dark Jedi? Seems to me the majority of the assassins, were the guys in dark black suits and masks.

 

Yeah, the assassins greatly outnumbered the Dark Jedi and Sith. I'm not going to get into numbers, but I would have to say the number of assassins is roughly a thousand.

 

I really have no idea though. I'm going to stick with the thousand, though. :)

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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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Yeah, the assassins greatly outnumbered the Dark Jedi and Sith. I'm not going to get into numbers, but I would have to say the number of assassins is roughly a thousand.

 

I really have no idea though. I'm going to stick with the thousand, though. :)

 

If thats the case, then Traya's army really is screwed. Numbers wise, the Sun Guard has this, skill wise, the Sith but really just due to the Dark Jedi and Sith...but then again lets say through the battle the Sun Guard has 10,000 men(though could still be far more, but lets just say they don't get reinforcements for the battle) and lost 3k of them. This still leaves 7,000 men to deal with + Maul and Plagueis which I don't think the remaining forces will be able to overcome. Especially if this is all CQC.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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If thats the case, then Traya's army really is screwed. Numbers wise, the Sun Guard has this, skill wise, the Sith but really just due to the Dark Jedi and Sith...but then again lets say through the battle the Sun Guard has 10,000 men(though could still be far more, but lets just say they don't get reinforcements for the battle) and lost 3k of them. This still leaves 7,000 men to deal with + Maul and Plagueis which I don't think the remaining forces will be able to overcome. Especially if this is all CQC.

 

I don't know how much you should lean on that thousand though. I'm going to do some research on the subject later and see what I can come up with.

 

As it stands, Plagueis wins a direct confrontation(though that was already known to begin with). But Beni don't decide the victor yet, at least not until I get more concrete numbers. :)

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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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I don't know how much you should lean on that thousand though. I'm going to do some research on the subject later and see what I can come up with.

 

As it stands, Plagueis wins a direct confrontation(though that was already known to begin with). But Beni don't decide the victor yet, at least not until I get more concrete numbers. :)

 

Well I was just going off the thousand you mentioned, could be more but i'll see what you turn up. I have looked, and can't really find anything concrete on the Sith Triumvirate at least Sith Assassin number wise. All I could find, is that the army was small. Given its the remains of another army, I don't see it being very big though in terms of numbers but that could be surprising if they are.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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