Vanguard's The easiest Target in PVP

[Larry_Dallas]

Good point!

 

Oh wait a minute, that's utter balls.

 

First, Arsenal/Gunnery specs are situationally better than Pyro/Assault. See my vids - in warzones standard or ranked, I eat other commandos/mercs for breakfast, and assault are much easier to deal with, having cleansable dots and not having the burst potential of vanguards.

 

Second, neither assault or gunnery specs are desirable for ranked. I go occasionally as filler because I've worked to become the top PvP commando DPS on my server (gunnery, go figure), but I'm an exception. CM spec is ok if you want to be a healer, but lets face it, that's filler too - everyone wants scoundrels and stun bubble sage hybrids.

 

But none of this applied to VGs, who are much more desirable due to core mechanic differences. And even if they weren't better for Burst DPS - which they are, they also have utility.

 

Exactly which part of what you've said here explains why Sorcerors just spec something else instead of QQing about a non-pvp spec in the PvP forums and mercs continue to spec, get predictably brutalized then complain about their non-pvp spec?

[NathanielStarr]

I will say that there is no way a Vanguards DPS compares with a Marauders, so you talk about high burst and it's good, but Marauder especially carnage or smash are in a whole different league.

[HeIIbat]

I will say that there is no way a Vanguards DPS compares with a Marauders, so you talk about high burst and it's good, but Marauder especially carnage or smash are in a whole different league.

Yeah, Vanguard burst higher and ignore all resistances. But lets cry about 5k smashes, when every other warrior ability hit for 1-2k max

[Isislol]

VG only need a working Defensive CD. Reactive Shield is **** (compared to other defensive CD's) and adrenaline rush don't even count as "Defensive CD".

 

VG damage is fine how it is.

 

 

The dmg is not fine. They should either lower the dmg or at least armor penetration on Rail Shot so PTs don't hit hard from 30m or keep the dmg but lower the range and give them at least 2 defensive CDs. If they are melee class they should stay in melee but they also have to be able to survive ACs like marauders and assassins. I very recently leveled PT and it's ridiculous how simple and boring the AC is. Give them more abilities but nerf the dmg so the class actually requires skill and is fun to play.

[NathanielStarr]

Yeah, Vanguard burst higher and ignore all resistances. But lets cry about 5k smashes, when every other warrior ability hit for 1-2k max

1 to 2k max? LOL what the basic attack? Don't lie to try and make a point. I get hit from attacks besides Ravage and smash for 3 to 4k all the time. That saber throw will hit for 4k easy.

[HeIIbat]

1 to 2k max? LOL what the basic attack? Don't lie to try and make a point. I get hit from attacks besides Ravage and smash for 3 to 4k all the time. That saber throw will hit for 4k easy.

Saber throw cant. Vicious throw can but its finisher

[Ycoga]

Vanguard/Powertech is pretty much the only balanced class in PvP at the momment imo. We will never get nerfed again, and we will never recieve a class buff. Our defensive abilities are a joke, and we get killed quick as heck, this is true. However, our on the move burst dps and ranged taunts are great. I was dissapointed with the range nerf, but in the end thought it was good for the game overall. It's also nice knowing that your class is safe from being messed with now, like i touched base on before.

 

This sounds almost like a prayer. Keep prayin' you won't get a nerf, PT!

[Joesixxpack]

Don't forget the mirror OP, and enjoy your 8 VG vs. 8 PT matches. Edited January 7, 2013 by Joesixxpack

[wetslampigduex]

OP i've played a PT since launch as well. Their escape is simple, kill or be killed. As a PT/VG even if your double teamed chances are your going to kill one guy and leave the second one hurting as well. IMO they're fine the way they stand.

[Jherad]

Exactly which part of what you've said here explains why Sorcerors just spec something else instead of QQing about a non-pvp spec in the PvP forums and mercs continue to spec, get predictably brutalized then complain about their non-pvp spec?

 

Exactly which part of 'Assault is no more a PvP spec than Gunnery' is too hard for you to grasp?

[madtycoon]

Greeting's SWTOR Community, I've come to these forums cause I am concerned that BW is over looking Vanguard's need for an escape mech. Before I go into details id like to provide my background, I am a career republic player, a pre-launch vanguard VR 100, 2650+ rating, and over 75 days played. Ive also leveled and played extensively a Sabotage Gunslinger aswell as a Focus Guardian. From my pvp experience ive come to the conclusion that Vanguard's are the easiest to down and have no way of surviving a bad situation. Bioware has announced they are looking at ways to give commando's an escape mech and its my hope that Vanguard's are not over looked.

 

Some examples of what I mean, If a Jedi knight leaps to a Vanguard we have to drop whatever we are doing and fight the jedi knight or we are dead (VG slow is worse then JK's, as well VG's have no knockback, mez, vanish, hostile/friendly leaps, even a Commando which BW seems concerned about can knock people back into the pit or whatever. Ranged classes are a major bane for VG's now since we cant pull Gunslingers, If we pull a commando who opens on us from range they just use their knockback, and Sage's have their knockback and sprint off cooldown twice before a VG pull comes off of cooldown.

 

Now i dont feel like commenting on every classes ability to escape a bad situation but I can comment on the Classes ive played.

 

MORE EDITING INCOMING

 

They definately need an escape mechanic. All classes should have a least one escape mechanic and all classes should have at least 2 defensive cooldowns. An oh **** button like guarded by the force or to a lesser extent resilience and a pure damage reduction ability like reactive shield and even a self heal (but that's questionable). The trooper/BH classes and severals others seem incomplete eventhough assault still does the most unhealable damage in the game. I mean they probably have the least abilities right now of all the classes. Which I'm sure makes the class super enjoyable. Considering the effectiveness of a skill capped VG and one thats only hitting his 4 buttons and stunning/reactive shielding on cooldown is very slim.

 

To the people saying vanguards do retarded damage, so they shouldn't be allowed to have better defensives. You should want their damage lowered in trade for them having better defensives. Glass cannons are bad for the game. I mean the reason vanguards are viable is because they have retarded/unpreventable damage. It would be so much better if they lowered their burst potential, but gave them better defensives. Gave everyone but sentinels and maybe to a lesser extent guardians and shadows better defensives. Because those 3 classes have by far the best defense and escape mechanics in the game and still can put out above par burst (focus spec almost equaling assault).

[ParagonAX]

your 15% hp over 10 second cd

 

Most OP defensive CD in the game.

[-MasterBlaster-]

And nerf operatives while at it.

 

This a thousand times over:)

[Pahomi]

I agree with the OP. Ya, Vanguards can burst, but we have the worse defensive cooldowns in the game. Assasins, Muraders, and Jugs can all burst just as much as Vanguards and PTS, yet they have all forms of defensive cooldowns available to them. Furthermore, they also have a better gap closer than Vanguards and PTs via force run or murlitple leaps. Vanguards and PTs are stuck with a 45 second leash, yet we were forced to play melee.

 

You guys have two friggin hard stuns, and one of them is AOE. Also, let me tell you that 10m melee is SO much better than 4m melee. You comparisons here are just plain ignorant, it's obvious you don't play a Jugg or Mara. I however play both marauder and powertech and find they are both very strong. How bad a powertech must you be to say you need a buff... :| I think everyone needs to actually play all the classes they are talking about before they make such ridiculous claims.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Pahomi

[DarthOvertone]

From my pvp experience ive come to the conclusion that Vanguard's are the easiest to down and have no way of surviving a bad situation.

 

It's 2-buttons and Kite on a Vanguard. Seriously, it's not that hard.

[Larry_Dallas]

Exactly which part of 'Assault is no more a PvP spec than Gunnery' is too hard for you to grasp?

 

You're answering a question with a question instead of answering it with an answer.

 

If a ranged spec doesn't move, can be disrupted to the point of helplessness with one skill every human-controlled class has on a short cooldown (and few raid enemies have or use at all) and can't maintain distance, it's not for PvP.

 

Now, for the third time, please explain how anything you've told me accounts for why mercs bash their heads against a wall playing an unusable spec not designed to fight human opponents, then cry about it, and sorcerors don't, which is the only question I've been asking in this thread.

[ArchangelLBC]

Gunnery/Arsenal Commandos/Mercs are the only group that takes an obviously useless spec in terms of pvp into a warzone, then comes to the forums to complain about it instead of speccing one of the two more useful specs (though I do not begrudge mercs from complaining about THOSE two specs).

 

I just don't understand this. Lightning sorcerors are arguably worse and I never ever see this endless QQ about them that I do from arsenal mercs. They just spec something else. Madness assassins are freaking terrible in pvp. Is there endless whining about it? Nope. The would be whiners just spec tank hybrid or stealth.

 

All those other classes DO have viable PVP specs. The fact that, by your admission, Commando doesn't is the problem. If we had a ranked viable DPS spec we'd go play that. Even a decent healing spec. Hell if the healing spec wasn't noticeably lacking compared to the other two healers.

 

Also I find it funny that so much of the PVP utility is in that tree. Snare on Full Auto? Gunnery. Better knockback and stockstrike root? Gunnery. Shorter cooldown on CC breaker and Knockback? Gunnery.

 

Assault has a 30% snare, and a quicker refreshing Reactive Shield, and you aren't all that much better off than gunnery spec when it comes to depending on casts.

 

So to answer your question: All the specs suck so all specs get suggestions and most commandos naturally prefer gunnery.

[af_raptura]

While an escape would be cool, I would prefer a strong defensive cooldown, even if it was only available to the tanking tree, though that would not solve the utility problems with shield tech.

[AdmiralParmesan]

They definately need an escape mechanic. All classes should have a least one escape mechanic and all classes should have at least 2 defensive cooldowns. An oh **** button like guarded by the force or to a lesser extent resilience and a pure damage reduction ability like reactive shield and even a self heal (but that's questionable). The trooper/BH classes and severals others seem incomplete eventhough assault still does the most unhealable damage in the game. I mean they probably have the least abilities right now of all the classes. Which I'm sure makes the class super enjoyable. Considering the effectiveness of a skill capped VG and one thats only hitting his 4 buttons and stunning/reactive shielding on cooldown is very slim.

 

To the people saying vanguards do retarded damage, so they shouldn't be allowed to have better defensives. You should want their damage lowered in trade for them having better defensives. Glass cannons are bad for the game. I mean the reason vanguards are viable is because they have retarded/unpreventable damage. It would be so much better if they lowered their burst potential, but gave them better defensives. Gave everyone but sentinels and maybe to a lesser extent guardians and shadows better defensives. Because those 3 classes have by far the best defense and escape mechanics in the game and still can put out above par burst (focus spec almost equaling assault).

 

Good post. I agree fully

[cashogy]

You're answering a question with a question instead of answering it with an answer.

 

If a ranged spec doesn't move, can be disrupted to the point of helplessness with one skill every human-controlled class has on a short cooldown (and few raid enemies have or use at all) and can't maintain distance, it's not for PvP.

 

Now, for the third time, please explain how anything you've told me accounts for why mercs bash their heads against a wall playing an unusable spec not designed to fight human opponents, then cry about it, and sorcerors don't, which is the only question I've been asking in this thread.

 

sorcs have viable hybrid builds; mercs do not.

 

mystery solved

[Larry_Dallas]

All those other classes DO have viable PVP specs. The fact that, by your admission, Commando doesn't is the problem. If we had a ranked viable DPS spec we'd go play that. Even a decent healing spec. Hell if the healing spec wasn't noticeably lacking compared to the other two healers.

 

Also I find it funny that so much of the PVP utility is in that tree. Snare on Full Auto? Gunnery. Better knockback and stockstrike root? Gunnery. Shorter cooldown on CC breaker and Knockback? Gunnery.

 

Assault has a 30% snare, and a quicker refreshing Reactive Shield, and you aren't all that much better off than gunnery spec when it comes to depending on casts.

 

So to answer your question: All the specs suck so all specs get suggestions and most commandos naturally prefer gunnery.

 

This still doesn't answer my question.

 

Gunnery is quite analogous to lightning. Couple serious utility skills in the latter spec. But, due to it being a cast-time, immobile spec, sorcs are realistic in not even considering using this tree in pvp, let alone endlessly ************ about it on the forums.

 

Assault isn't all that different from madness apart that they trade some kiting tools (not all of them, just some) for more burst. Sorcs who don't roll hybrid use this tree, despite its shortcomings, instead of the other because any shortcomings it does have are ludicrous in comparison to the problems in the other tree.

 

Mercs do the opposite. They pick the worst tree, knowing its the worst tree, fail, then endlessly complain that the tree that's least suited for warzones has problems. When there are better alternatives, even if those alternatives have their own problems, this practice makes no sense.

 

 

sorcs have viable hybrid builds; mercs do not.

 

mystery solved

 

Not really what I was asking, considering that if hybrid were not available, you still wouldn't see sorcs in lightning spec, but this does happen to be an excellent point.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Larry_Dallas

[Sardonyyx]

Most OP defensive CD in the game.

 

 

Have you forgotten Endure Pain/Enure? Or perhaps the sorc/sage bubble? Also, THREE MINUTE CD

Edited January 8, 2013 by Sardonyyx
Spelling error

[DiabloDoom]

Some examples of what I mean, If a Jedi knight leaps to a Vanguard we have to drop whatever we are doing and fight the jedi knight or we are dead

 

OMG BW sort out this imbalance at once!! If they get attacked they can't continue other activities. Vanguards need an auto kill FFS.

[cashogy]

Have you forgotten Endure Pain/Enure? Or perhaps the sorc/sage bubble? Also, THREE MINUTE CD

 

Edited January 8, 2013 by cashogy

[Jherad]

You're answering a question with a question instead of answering it with an answer.

 

If a ranged spec doesn't move, can be disrupted to the point of helplessness with one skill every human-controlled class has on a short cooldown (and few raid enemies have or use at all) and can't maintain distance, it's not for PvP.

 

Now, for the third time, please explain how anything you've told me accounts for why mercs bash their heads against a wall playing an unusable spec not designed to fight human opponents, then cry about it, and sorcerors don't, which is the only question I've been asking in this thread.

 

Again for the kid on the short bus, I'll take the experience I have playing gunnery in both standards and RWZs over your herpity derpity second hand theorycraft any day of the week, and again, tell you that Gunnery is no worse than Assault for PvP, and is better situationally. The problems that affect Commando DPS affect the class as a whole, spec aside.

 

Btw, my 50 sage is hilariously way more survivable than my Commando. Yes, there are shortfalls with sorcs/sages too - but at least they have one spec which is desirable for RWZs (don't try and kid me that CM is a pick over Scoundrels and bubblestun heal hybrid sages), and have a crapton more utility.

 

Which merc/commando spec would you have people use to not make the cut for top RWZ teams? Hmm?

Edited January 8, 2013 by Jherad