Sniper PvP Guide by Express

[Zoidrinali]

Incidentally regarding TA. I'm at work so can't check but it doesn't just give a bonus to accuracy it also provides a 15% boost to armour penetration (according to the tool tips). So used in conjunction with SS provides 35% armour penetration

[ceazare]

Yes, together with shatter shot it is 35%. Energy and kinetic attacks will do roughly 7% more on light armor users and about 11% more on heavy armor users than they do without any armor reduction. Edited February 7, 2013 by ceazare
typo

[Wainamoinen]

the problem is lets face it on the red eclipse there aren't that many snipers/slingers doing ranked warzones and out of those who are how many of them are consistently playing as engineering?

 

If you underhanded Imps are into some anecdotal evidence, I came across Es'carli as Engineer in an normal HB a couple of weeks back. Me (scrapper) thinks "sniper, tasty, off we go".

 

I went in complacent and missing cds, and messed up my responses (perhaps as a consequence) but leaving all that aside he totally dismantled me. Apart from the skill question, I simply hadn't faced anyone playing Engineering competently and had no idea how to react on the fly, didn't know what they were doing.

 

I'm not saying that Engineering is definitely the way to go, I don't play the class and can't comment. Rather: a) it's pretty rare, at least on Red Eclipse. That will give an edge; b) it was effective, seemed appreciably tougher than other snipers, and made trying to fight in the area they were covering unpleasant.

 

I'd like to see more of it, adds variety to warzones. Another type of opponent to work out.

 

Anyway, as you were, carry on.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[BaineOs]

There not being many of us most certainly works to my advantage. There's nothing better than being pulled or leaped upon and proceed to stun them so I can get my aoe off. If they stick around sure they might kill me but I'll take a huge chuck of their health off before they do!

 

The vast majority of snipers lvl up as marksman and some switch to lethality, you can have a ton of fun playing an engineering sniper in lowbie....they just haven't got a clue how to react against you.

 

If you underhanded Imps are into some anecdotal evidence, I came across Es'carli as Engineer in an normal HB a couple of weeks back. Me (scrapper) thinks "sniper, tasty, off we go".

 

I went in complacent and missing cds, and messed up my responses (perhaps as a consequence) but leaving all that aside he totally dismantled me.

 

To be fair dude I must have used up my weeks allowance of luck! I know you've dismantled me on more than one occassion

[Wainamoinen]

To be fair dude I must have used up my weeks allowance of luck! I know you've dismantled me on more than one occassion

 

Sometimes you get the crits, sometimes the crits get you. Unless you're Rage-specced, obviously.

 

I mentioned it because I'm a stubborn bugger and went back a couple of times in the wz so it wasn't a single brush. I was sufficiently struck by the harder-to-kill difference, and the way it made trying to fight in the area they were focusing on painful to post here. Initially thought I could go in half-cocked and instead had my arse handed to me on a smoking platter. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten

Edited February 8, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Aries_cz]

I have to say, cool guide. However, I personally hated playing sniper in both PvE (forced to use Lokin, otherwise mob-chew) and PvP (always got 2+ on me, no escape possibilities ).

Truth to be told, however, I only picked it because of Sniper Rifle, which I am going to sorely miss on my rerolled Agent Operative...

[NoTomorrow]

Sorry for being so slow at replies. I'll try to reply faster next time.

 

We have no such agreement on our server. If these rules were enforced on our server, of course things would be different and stronger burst 'may' be needed to make up for reduced aggregate on-demand burst that the central DPS units would be providing (hard to tell without actually trying it). All prior posts I have made have been posted under the assumption that I was operating in an unrestricted Ranked PvP environment as the game currently stands, and in that environment, I strongly back Engi as the best spec for Snipers.

 

Unrestricted ranked environment is a different animal. And if played to the extreme of extremes, to the very best skill and abuse of FOTM OP classes, we can safely argue that is no room for sniper at all in that, not even for some engineering spec. I am just curious how do you survive a team with 2 smashers focusing you without siege bunker, engineering is tanky, but not against smashers, even with the 3000+ damage absorbing shield probes.

 

This extra burst you have mentioned has never been required (see above). I also strongly believe that both inside and outside pressured (non-freecasting) environments, Engi is capable of stronger dps and is much more resilient to enemy focus fire.

I've seen civil war when team gets their side cap then get locked in a stalemate for 20 minutes over the mid without even capturing it. The win goes to the side which capped their natural faster. There is too much guard, too much tanking, taunts and the pvp adrenals further aggravate this issue. We need every burst we can get.

 

Support is not based solely around Bal Shield like you mention below, it is based mostly around the specs ability to control a firefight through area denial, which can be easily maintained by effective use of a MM Snipers biggest weakness; LOS.

Define "control a firefight through area denial". MM has grenades and OS just as well, and on top of that OS is on a shorter CD. You need a little less LoS than MM, but you are just as vulnerable to LoSing as every other Sniper spec. You cannot place PP outside of your LoS, its range is only enough to scarry somebody behind a thin pillar only.

The damage that it does is very respectable but certainly not overpowered. Those cases you are trying to make the PP so useful are limited to this situation:

1. You are outnumbered, the enemy doesnt have enough DPS to kill you fast

2. You can get CCed, but the objective is still defended by your plasma probe.

That's it. This is the most probable case where PP is giving an important edge over MM.

 

Sure, you can deny Bal Shield for a considerable portion of a firefight by cycling through your 1min Diversion CD, and yes, you will be able to keep your Bal Shield up too if u pop Entrench at the same time. A couple of points though; you're assuming you have LOS on me as I pop Bal Shield - prime example of when this will not be the case (unless you over-commit / break cover to relocate (the later will mostly result in a grapple + focus down)) is when I'm hiding behind a back corner pillar in CW, or if I'm pushed hard against the CW mid-ramp wall (this can and will be done at the expense of producing damage for my team if my healers are really under enough pressure to require Bal Shield, which doesnt happen very often).

First of all: the only thing that I assume is that we both have completely equally skilled teams (because there would be no point in discussing this matter othwerise). Now a few couple of points:

 

1. Ballistic shield is not useable outside of entrench. Even in unranked. Without entrench, you will get CCed to lose your cover. Every champion valored player knows this and will do it to you the moment he sees ballistic shield.

 

2. I am assuming that i have LoS on you because you will try to maximize the utility of your ballistic shield. This basically leads to: either you pop-up ballistic shield in a useful place where you can cover a relevant area and be actualy helpful to your team mates, but risk eating a diversion and get denied, or you can hide behind a pilar, thus limiting your own LoS and not providing and a useful shield but be safe from the diversion. Either way it's a win for me, because I served my purpose better at area denial against you. I have limited your viable positions to deploy.

 

3. The thing about overcommiting works both ways.

 

Furthermore, stacking Entrench along with your Bal Shield is a great way to indicate to my team that in a few seconds you're going to be open to a chained double Smash, after-which they will bait your Dodge pop with a Ravage (also pop Obfuscate to reduce ambush knockback chance) so a PT's Railshot connects etc. etc. etc. The point is by popping those two big defensive's you have in order to secure a prime 20sec window, you're indicating to my team that a burst phase is going to be on. This can't really be avoided by you or any other player really, I'm just stating that the defensive advantage you give to your team for 20secs is going to be met by an equally punishing offensive force afterwards, probably so much force that you'll be heading to spawn to allow me to get off a Entrench + BS combo off myself without having to stress about Diversion interference.

Again, you are making assumptions about your team being better than mine and thus extrapolating this on how engineering is better than MM. In your case i wouldn't try to win this MM vs Engineering argument in a way like this. It's pointless to speculate what will happen after my entrench and ballistic shield will end. Your smashers could be long since dead. I could just have a bubble stun on me ready to stun the dudes, i could have cover pulse available, so no need to pop evasion Etc. Etc. You are making a lot of assumptions, like some some sort of punishing offensive stuff, HOW DOES THIS MAKE ENGINEERING BETTER? Again, don't extrapolate your team skill over Engineering vs MM. You have an extra 3000 shield probe, an extra 6% DR. Under the same amount of focus fire implied by you, you are just as dead like you try to make me be. I could just as well bring into the argument my entrench + siege bunker. that will work wonders against your smashers.

 

In terms of my own survivabilty, I truly don't find Diversion this huge hindrance that you claim it to be; smart positioning by myself will result in my continued AoE presence on a battlefront whilst LOSing your teams force fire attempts for the 6seconds in which i can be pulled etc.. Any considerable threats to myself from leapers will be met with a stun (unless unremitting, in which can i'll just take that damage or pop a SP). I guess what I'm trying to say, is that 6sec window in which i produce less effective damage and must react defensively is not something I find to be a huge factor in my ability to manipulate the zerg.

Your own survivability = avoiding LoS with me at all costs. There is no need to discuss this further. My advantage is clear. By your own words, the very same burst/ focus fire / and punishing offensive your implied above is very much threatening to you in those 6s window. Every minute when you will have entrench available, i will have diversion available. You will never be able to stay in cover while entrenched in my line of sight.

 

Ahh well you play under much different conditions to me so if you say you have all you need as a MM spec then I can't really contest that. I would be keen to see what your opinions are regarding the viability of MM specs in Ranked WZ environments when your "gentleman's agreements" are not withstanding. In my experience of both MM and Engi specs in these much stronger DPS conditions, I still can't see how MM specs are ever going to be viable - what may be surprising to you, is this extra burst you rave about is not actually something I need to bring as a DPS slot due to my teams unrestricted composition, and is something I happily trade in for what I believe is a much more useful and impactful skill-set in heavily contested situations.

I could say the same about your RWZ envinronment, you seem to have some sort of comfortable playground where you can focus at your own pleasure of doing anything but actually helping to burst targets down.

[NoTomorrow]

If you underhanded Imps are into some anecdotal evidence, I came across Es'carli as Engineer in an normal HB a couple of weeks back. Me (scrapper) thinks "sniper, tasty, off we go".

 

I went in complacent and missing cds, and messed up my responses (perhaps as a consequence) but leaving all that aside he totally dismantled me. Apart from the skill question, I simply hadn't faced anyone playing Engineering competently and had no idea how to react on the fly, didn't know what they were doing.

 

I'm not saying that Engineering is definitely the way to go, I don't play the class and can't comment. Rather: a) it's pretty rare, at least on Red Eclipse. That will give an edge; b) it was effective, seemed appreciably tougher than other snipers, and made trying to fight in the area they were covering unpleasant.

 

I'd like to see more of it, adds variety to warzones. Another type of opponent to work out.

 

Anyway, as you were, carry on.

 

You got me once yesterday on Ancient hypergates, I was MM specced, not on full hp and with CC breaker on CD. Based on that circumstance, stunning me after the knockdown was a right move, but I really do not approve going into the habbit of filling the resolve so fast after the initial knockdown. I have survived countless of concealment attempts based solely on this mistake.

 

Engineering is played quite often currently given how many players have trouble figuring how to get the most out of MM. I don't know where does this theory comes from. The only rare spec is lethality ops followed by AP PT.

 

Personally i've been an engineer since 1.1, back when PP sucked and IP didn't reset on cleanse/target's death.

Edited February 11, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[islander]

Yeah, of the snipers I know, it's about 60/40 engineer with some lethaliy sporadically sprinkled in there. Many people roll engineer because it's a bit more survivable and an excellent node specific skill.

 

I personally prefer marksman and feel I've gotten reasonably skilled at it. I like it better for field skirmishes outside of warzones. I've dabbled in engineer enough to use it in a pinch, but I haven't quite mastered the energy management of it on the fly yet. I 'understand' what to do. Just need more practice at it.

[BaineOs]

Define "control a firefight through area denial". MM has grenades and OS just as well, and on top of that OS is on a shorter CD. You need a little less LoS than MM, but you are just as vulnerable to LoSing as every other Sniper spec. You cannot place PP outside of your LoS, its range is only enough to scarry somebody behind a thin pillar only.

The damage that it does is very respectable but certainly not overpowered. Those cases you are trying to make the PP so useful are limited to this situation:

1. You are outnumbered, the enemy doesnt have enough DPS to kill you fast

2. You can get CCed, but the objective is still defended by your plasma probe.

That's it. This is the most probable case where PP is giving an important edge over MM.

3. It slows people within that area down (e.g. helping a team mate loose their attacker)

4. Place a plasma probe down and watch people try to get out of it (e.g. dispersing a crowd)

5. Similarly but different, drop a plasma probe down and watch people avoid it, they'll go around

6. Helps to reveal stealthers

 

There's a seventh as well but might be out of context

7. Acts as another form of defense for the engineering sniper by dropping it on himself

 

None have any relevence to damage but can still benefit the team, it's not just about the damage it does. All of those can be used by your team mates to some effect. 3, 4, 5 & 6 (I don't do ranked and so based on my experience) tends to go unnoticed by team mates.

 

Grenades and OS doesn't quite cut it in that respect. Whilst that plasma probe is active the engineering sniper can then go back to the designated target and help with the damage. Whilst the mm snipers are chucking the grenades and dropping the OS the engineers have already switched there focus elsewhere to help the team (which incidentally could very well mean grenades and OS in a different location). OS might be on a shorter cooldown but I'd much prefer the cooldown of my 18sec plasma probe

 

Speaking of OS with the extra 15% damage to all AOE damage and the extra crit damage to all AOE effects the combination of plasma probe and OS in two different places or in the same spot is going to make any team think twice about stepping into the area(s).

 

I'm not about to say MM is better for engineering in terms of damage (I'm heavily biased anyway ) but what I will say is Enginering can help control areas far better than MM.

 

Engineering is played quite often currently given how many players have trouble figuring how to get the most out of MM. I don't know where does this theory comes from. The only rare spec is lethality ops followed by AP PT.

There was a period on TRE where almost every sniper was engineering but that vanished as quick as it came. These days (although granted I haven't played Es'carli for a week or so now) it's rare that I see an engineering sniper, only one I've come across in fact is Rogiin and he's a slinger, surprised the hell out of me! If there are other snipers running around using engineering then to me they're still rare or (unfortunately and my bad!! ) haven't really made an impression on me. It's why Rogiin stood out to me when he started using it because I couldn't remember the last time I came across someone using it.

Edited February 11, 2013 by BaineOs

[stringcat]

On my server, I was literally the ONLY Engineering sniper in PVP for about two or three months. Then a handful of others showed up and one re-subbed. But it's still the rarest of the specs - I always notice an engineer/sabo sniper/GS and could list them by name. Most don't stick with it. Edited February 11, 2013 by stringcat

[Monterone]

One of the most educational threads on these official forums, period. Good work NT and all other contributors!

 

After long consideration I decided not to dust off my GS and am instead leveling a new Sniper. Reading through all the posts really gave me great insight on how to build it and use it effectively... thanks guys.

 

 

Chonies (baby sniper)

[Bouncy_Hunter]

Thanks for this guide man, The first walls of text I found worthy of reading for a while. Appreciate the time you put into this!

[AsheraII]

Players seem to enjoy the MM/Engi hybrid where you basically go as high in Engineering tree to get all the Explosive probe boostin talents. Is this a better spec than full MM or full Engineering? Would you really want to put all your eggs into one single basket, i mean into an ability with a 30s CD? It could probably work, but i dont see any specific greater advantages over the full 31 pts builds..

I'm actually a fan of this one, but I don't go for the full line of Interrogation Probe upgrades. As you said, it is very energy intensive, and that certainly is a major drawback.

Instead, I went 0/20/21 and grabbed the energy regenerators from both trees and focus (rather heavily) on having a good crit rate and good crit damage:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#400ZMIMbRRbZG0rkrrb.2

 

crit = DPS and energy

explosive probe + series of shots = DPS and energy

 

It's very easy to deplete yourself of energy with a hybrid spec, so you have to use those replennishments you have available to your advantage.

 

It is AOE and DOT heavy, so not ideal for a CC-heavy ranked team. However, against enemy teams that have a tendency to cluster together, like dual smashers, it works perfectly fine to keep the pressure on everybody, including their healers.

 

Attacks start out with either corrosive grenades (multiple enemies clustered) or interrogation probe (single enemy), keeping the other one free for the snare effect. After that, I start singling out an enemy, with Corrosive Dart, Explosive Probes, Shattershot and Series of Shots, usually bringing the target down to Takedown health. An enemy healer has to be on the ball from the start to keep up with that, especially with Shattershot active.

Spamming additional Corrosive Darts to other enemy players for additional energy regeneration never hurts either.

It's a slow start with the initial Corrosive Grenade/Dart and having to set up your Explosive Probe. But that's the whole idea of the thing: to not draw too much attention untill it's too late. So you'll want some groupmembers who pose more of an immediate threat with you, like a marauder or a powertech, and maybe a healer. Players capable of front-damage, while you provide the backlash.

 

While it's certainly not the best way to play a sniper (if there is such a thing), I hope this provides some insight to the how and why to this hybrid spec.

Edited February 20, 2013 by AsheraII

[stringcat]

I sometimes run that spec in regulars. I call it the Mad Bomber spec

 

(The way I play it, it's a "buff ALL the AOEs! MOAR AOES NOW!" tree -- and you grab the energy regen talents so you can do Even Moar AOEs.)

[NoTomorrow]

One of my Sniper friends has developed the concept for a build to win duels against stealthers opening on you as well as combat stealthing during the fight. It is not strictly speaking a PvP build, more of a dueling build, but the ideas behind it seem to be quite promising. We will not rush to conclusions until we see how it goes, but i'll tell you this, all this time the possible answer to concealment and deception was right under our nose!

 

As for the hybrid, i do not endorse it, but sometime the stars align and you may find youself with the right team composition against the right type of opponents, during which you can have a total blast.

 

I still cannot get enough of 35/3/3 in unranked. It's such a powerful spec against so many opponents. Yeah my DPS is probably capped at 600k max in a warzone with it, but it tears thing apart long before they realize what really happened to them.

Edited February 20, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[OceosLaRone]

Fantastic guide, thank you very much everyone who has posted!

[islander]

bump, for something that should be stickied.

[NoTomorrow]

Thank you, i will certainly need to make a new version of the guide for 2.0. It makes sense to make a new thread for 2.0.

[CJNJ]

Friendly bump for new snipers, may help alittle

[ambitiousapple]

I still cannot get enough of 35/3/3 in unranked. It's such a powerful spec against so many opponents. Yeah my DPS is probably capped at 600k max in a warzone with it, but it tears thing apart long before they realize what really happened to them.

 

I know I never got around to replying to your previous post directed at me, but nevertheless, I still cannot get enough of 7/34/0

 

It's a shame Engi is slipping in 2.0; it's not so much the survivability nerf that is killing it, just the lack of buffs it received in comparison to MM and Leth (the buffs are obviously needed though to re-balance the increased level cap and the associated stat-boosts, new talents etc.). Since all specs will provide the "deploy-able Bal Shield" and Leth picked up stronger defensives (Bal Damp and +Absorb on Shield Probe) and some burst, I can't help but feel that Engi has really lost its front-line utility/dps uniqueness lol.

 

Also, looking at the trees again, doesnt anyone else wonder why the single-target burst tree has a quicker cast time on the harder hitting AoE, as well as a reduced CD on it? Those two talents really should have been in the AoE tree lols

Edited March 30, 2013 by ambitiousapple

[NoTomorrow]

I know I never got around to replying to your previous post directed at me, but nevertheless, I still cannot get enough of 7/34/0

 

It's a shame Engi is slipping in 2.0; it's not so much the survivability nerf that is killing it, just the lack of buffs it received in comparison to MM and Leth (the buffs are obviously needed though to re-balance the increased level cap and the associated stat-boosts, new talents etc.). Since all specs will provide the "deploy-able Bal Shield" and Leth picked up stronger defensives (Bal Damp and +Absorb on Shield Probe) and some burst, I can't help but feel that Engi has really lost its front-line utility/dps uniqueness lol.

 

Also, looking at the trees again, doesnt anyone else wonder why the single-target burst tree has a quicker cast time on the harder hitting AoE, as well as a reduced CD on it? Those two talents really should have been in the AoE tree lols

 

Well 2.0 engineering is heavily focused on EMP. There is so much stuff revolving arround EMP that i can hardly fanthom when it will be the most opportunistic time to use it. Do you want to reset your adrenaline probe? Entrench? Shield probe? Covered escape? Choices choices. That entrench CD reset leading to 40s of total CC immunity is by any means something worth looking at. I like what they did to lethality except for spamable corrosive grenade which i think it's too much.

 

Besides the lower CD on EP+SoS is a good thing.

 

I like that interrogation probe waste because force shroud is no longer a problem for us. I think it's just the overall feeling that Engineering is pale in comparison to big huge changes that MM got, but it will stay a decent spec.

 

I will have to remake a new guide under 2.0. Too many changes incoming.

[CJNJ]

I know I never got around to replying to your previous post directed at me, but nevertheless, I still cannot get enough of 7/34/0

 

It's a shame Engi is slipping in 2.0; it's not so much the survivability nerf that is killing it, just the lack of buffs it received in comparison to MM and Leth (the buffs are obviously needed though to re-balance the increased level cap and the associated stat-boosts, new talents etc.). Since all specs will provide the "deploy-able Bal Shield" and Leth picked up stronger defensives (Bal Damp and +Absorb on Shield Probe) and some burst, I can't help but feel that Engi has really lost its front-line utility/dps uniqueness lol.

 

Also, looking at the trees again, doesnt anyone else wonder why the single-target burst tree has a quicker cast time on the harder hitting AoE, as well as a reduced CD on it? Those two talents really should have been in the AoE tree lols

 

I see what you mean about the whole engi thing. On live we get this awesome burst that can knock someone down easily if they aren't paying attention. While we did get some nice buffs with new TTK that burst doesn't mean much now. Engi in 2.0 to me is going to be much more focused on control and denial, especially with that new roll(can't wait to try that out on a Coast)

 

As far as the OS in MM tree, well if it were in engi then that would be OP lol. While I'd love it in engi having a 2 sec cast and shorter cooldown AND all the AOE buffs we get would be too much. Don't know why they stuck it in MM tho, they were being nice?

[NoTomorrow]

You can still make a hybrid focused on OS taking all the talents that buff it i think. But i never saw the reason Snipers to over-specialize on OS.

[funkiestj]

Thanks for the detailed guide! It gives the currently terrible but aspiring MM sniper lots of food for thought!